[CS2] Ragna General Discussion

[Spirit Juice]

Ragna being 4-6 against Lambda is pretty bad, IMO. It's even at best/worst for him. EC chart is pretty biased and actually isn't really trolling that much.

[FlyingVe]

Oh wait, I read it backwards. It's should be 6-4 in Ragna's favor, I assumed it was because, well, the other way doesn't make much sense. It's an even match at worst (IMO).

My bad for not reading carefully.

[Asdferty]

I don't have an opinion either way, but if WC was better than EC, wouldn't ragna be worse on the WC matchup list? The reason that he drops seems to be his predictable mixups and easily IB'd strings, so if you are better than he should do worse :S.

For my opinion on RAMDA RANGNA I would agree with 50/50, seems that way from what I've watched from japan and what I've played myself.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Double BE adds at least 10 meter in most combos, sometimes more or less depending on the combo. 22C combos can be wonky, depending upon how much effort you're willing to put in.

The reason this is important is that with most of his combos, that extra 10 heat makes the difference between having a RC available or not having it, and Ragna pressure with meter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ragna pressure without meter. I don't think it's a MAJOR difference, but it's something I think most players take for granted that can make a significant difference at a higher level of play, especially playing a character like Ragna where that one opening you get is really important.

I'm more concerned about how the BE change affects his mixup options after his combos. The inability to juggle with 3C or do some of the random run-under stuff makes his mixups a bit weaker after a combo, and that's one of the only times Ragna really gets to just pressure his opponent freely.

[prokiller88]

run up 2b->2c/5c will catch forward, backward and quick tech into good damage.. i don't see your point :|

you said double BE is good because it can finish because of a bit of extra damage.. i mentioned CS because afaik you can only get 1 hit of CS in with double belial while single lets you do both hits always

i don't know why you're bringing up his mix up when we're talking about belial/double belial

It's good because of the heat gain mostly which is important to his pressure game. Also after double BE, the best ender is probably 5D 623c/d 236c 214D if you didn't start with 3c.

[-Ladon-]

Double BE adds at least 10 meter in most combos, sometimes more or less depending on the combo. 22C combos can be wonky, depending upon how much effort you're willing to put in.

The reason this is important is that with most of his combos, that extra 10 heat makes the difference between having a RC available or not having it, and Ragna pressure with meter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ragna pressure without meter. I don't think it's a MAJOR difference, but it's something I think most players take for granted that can make a significant difference at a higher level of play, especially playing a character like Ragna where that one opening you get is really important.

I'm more concerned about how the BE change affects his mixup options after his combos. The inability to juggle with 3C or do some of the random run-under stuff makes his mixups a bit weaker after a combo, and that's one of the only times Ragna really gets to just pressure his opponent freely.

I think it's just becoming staple for us to end everything with ID enders with the way they're heading, not that I mind but I'd like an oki option that doesn't get beat by quick wakeup anti airs

[Seifuuku]

i think all characters can tech roll forward for free after 623c/d 236c 214d if they delay it so j.b/j.c whiffs

[VR-Raiden]

Yeah they can, but at least usually when you end with ID it's not after you did a double jump so you can air dash back or jump again after it.

I don't see how it loses to quick wake up anti airs unless you did it from really high up (like not after 5D).

[Janiekenzu]

Isn't The Anti Air To slow to hit you after an ID anyway?

[Prototype909]

Yeah they can, but at least usually when you end with ID it's not after you did a double jump so you can air dash back or jump again after it.

I don't see how it loses to quick wake up anti airs unless you did it from really high up (like not after 5D).

I think a lot of Ragnas actually forget, or don't realize, that they infact CAN dash/double jump after doing those ID enders. Dash back j.C has let me into some game saving resets against characters like Lambda/Arakune who will always try to run away from the corner ASAP.

[Prototype909]

It's still good to know you have options though and don't always have to just fall straight down into j.C/j.B.

[Seifuuku]

delay tech roll forward (slight delay) beats

falling j.b->623c OS

falling j.b->2b/22c OS

falling j.b->5c

delay tech roll forward (significant) beats

early backdash->j.c/j.b

late backdash->j.c/j.b. (if you do a late backdash you will cross them up - impossible to combo the j.b without meter, and it can still whiff as well depending on character hitbox)

you can easily react to the early backdash since it has to be done near the peak, and late backdash does not require a reaction as it is also beat by slight delay tech roll forward anyway..

[Seifuuku]

here is an awkward combo

anything->5d->6a->j.c->j.c->j.d->belial->land->623d->236c->214d->rc->belial

the thing about this combo is that it forces true oki.

rc->belial will only hit them once after the 214d (axe kick).. then they have a window to emergency tech. if they emergency tech, go straight into oki - they basically have to be mashing tech because of how small the window is (if they don't tech on the 2nd hit of belial, the 3rd hit launches them) if they don't tech, the combo blue beats, and you can follow up with 5d 22c for 22c oki. they are not allowed to neutral/tech roll/quick tech at all.

edit: credit to final ultima, he posted this on the 30th in the gimmicks thread.. didn't see it until now

[Spirit Juice]

here is an awkward combo

anything->5d->6a->j.c->j.c->j.d->belial->land->623d->236c->214d->rc->belial

the thing about this combo is that it forces true oki.

rc->belial will only hit them once after the 214d (axe kick).. then they have a window to emergency tech. if they emergency tech, go straight into oki - they basically have to be mashing tech because of how small the window is (if they don't tech on the 2nd hit of belial, the 3rd hit launches them) if they don't tech, the combo blue beats, and you can follow up with 5d 22c for 22c oki. they are not allowed to neutral/tech roll/quick tech at all.

I honestly think this combo is worth that 50 meter at all.

[mAc Chaos]

You mean "don't think"?

[Seifuuku]

I honestly think this combo is worth that 50 meter at all.

i am assuming you mean you don't think it's worth 50 meter

i just made this combo since a person i play knows that axe kick is a free ticket out of the corner, because falling j.b tech trap loses to delayed forward roll (and backdash backwards is risky+also loses to delayed rolls).. true oki off a combo that doesn't require a knockdown for 22c is good, even if it costs 50 meter (this is just my opinion however)..

here is a bk combo that incorporates burst baiting into it, albeit a little gimmicky+you lose some damage.

the combo is only burst safe up until 6d on a backthrow.. however, if they do not know when to burst exactly then it is burst safe up until the final j.d before belial (you can RC the j.d to bait it, however) the burst vulnerable parts of this combo are

• right before you use j.d after 6d/jump, but after the OS burst bait
  
• when you land and go for a j.d to keep the combo going
  
• after the final j.d before belial
  

backthrow/combo into 6c->dash 6d->29jump, hold back, delay j.d->land->28jump, hold back, delay jd->jump, hold back, delay j.d->belial

here is a burst punish combo for a mid air enemy while you are in BK

2c->5d (1)->214b->214d->6d->j.d whiff->29jump, j.d->7 jump, j.d->belial->6d->jd->5d->632146c == 6.6k damage ==

burst punish against grounded enemy is similar. again, it requires you to be in BK.

dash 5b->6a->6d->jd->land->214b->214d->6d->jd->land->jd->jd->belial->6d->jd->land->jd->jd->623d->236c->214d == 5.5k~ damage ==

this other combo requires you to be close+requires the 1 frame dash in link+BK mode on.

dash 2c->3c->22c->5b->6a->6d->jd->land->6d->jd whiff->land->jd->jd->belial->6d->jd->5d->22c == 6.4k~ damage ==

[Spirit Juice]

Yeah, I meant to say the combo is not worth the 50 meter. Silly me.

[Final Ultima]

Posts moved to General Discussion because I don't really think the combos thread was quite the right place for them.

But yeah, there's a reason I first brought that up in the "LET'S GET DUMB.TXT" thread.

[Beautiful Death]

Okay. My question concerns a matter of numbers.

Anyone know how much frame advantage you have after like a 5B, 5C, 5B>5C etc. poke into Hell's Fang without followup?

I know it's got to be somewhere between 1-3 frames. And in that case I already can imagine it's pointless knowing the exact number since in short-

-A long distance poke into Hell's Fang minus followup nets you very slight frame advantage.

Still. Anyone know somehow?

Argh. I need to take a crash course in figuring out this stuff.

[VR-Raiden]

If you take a look at the frame data, looking in the Frame adv. column

http://dustloop.com/guides/bbcs/frameData/ragna.html

you can see HF is -4 on block. That means it's slight disadvantage on block. Nothing that I know of is faster than 5 frames so it's not punishable, unless they instant block. Then it becomes -9 and so becomes highly punishable.

-4 frame advantage means you recover 4 frames after they get out of block stun. So if for example, after one Ragna does HF and the other Ragna blocks, they both do 2A the exact moment they're able. The one who blocked the HF would land a counterhit because he was able to get the 2A out 4 frames before the Ragna that did the HF. If something is even, or 0, on block then you recover the same time the opponent gets out of block stun.

[Final Ultima]

I think Beautiful Death was wondering would would happen if Hell's Fang connected during its later active frames (hence bringing up long distance pokes), as opposed to an outright lack of understanding frame data.

That said, Hell's Fang differs from most moves in that its active frames cease the moment it connects, so its frame disadvantage won't alter based on how late the move connects.

[Arvoyea]

I need some help figuring out how to actually be able to space with 5B and 5C again. I think I may have started to go on some autopilot thing for BE combos. Mainly it's because I always worrying about not dropping them and I do anyway...

[Seifuuku]

hf on hit is something like +1 or so.. not really a good idea, mainly because ragna's 2a is so slow and his 5a doesn't hit most of the cast while they are crouching..

[FlyingVe]

I think Beautiful Death was wondering would would happen if Hell's Fang connected during its later active frames (hence bringing up long distance pokes), as opposed to an outright lack of understanding frame data.

That said, Hell's Fang differs from most moves in that its active frames cease the moment it connects, so its frame disadvantage won't alter based on how late the move connects.

Aren't all 'rushing' moves in this game like that?

[VR-Raiden]

I think Beautiful Death was wondering would would happen if Hell's Fang connected during its later active frames (hence bringing up long distance pokes), as opposed to an outright lack of understanding frame data.

Oh oops, you're probably right

On that topic, I really don't like HF on hit without follow up either, for reasons including what Seifuuku posted. Plenty characters destroy him at that range, even with the +1 advantage.