[CS2] Ragna General Discussion

[SuperKawaiiDesu]

i know 2AxN 5B 6A (normal block) 5D was a pretty legit frame trap but since fatal counters were introduced, these traps become alot more powerful o_o forcing your opponent to block is nice, they could potentialy slip up, block some dead spikes, and be at a real disadvantage on primers :D

2D also serves as a jump startup punish trap off like, 5C right? Does anyone with frame data want to tell me how much blockstun is on 5C/2C and startup is on 2D? :D

my gawd, typos everywhere, i should go to sleep.

[-Ladon-]

2c is +1

5c is -8

no idea on 2D, although it looks virtually unchanged in CS

[SuperKawaiiDesu]

I dont think im getting the right idea about frame data and the works, 5C is -8 without a cancel? So if i canceled it at the first possible frame, how big would the hole be if i like, went into 2C which has 12 frames of startup? Would it just be neutral or something(that small gap between 5C and 2C, would there be 12 frames of startup? Which is enough to poke out? Or would i be at some sort of + from 5C > would it be airtight?) Im so confused ;_;

[-Ladon-]

I dont think im getting the right idea about frame data and the works, 5C is -8 without a cancel? So if i canceled it at the first possible frame, how big would the hole be if i like, went into 2C which has 12 frames of startup? Would it just be neutral or something(that small gap between 5C and 2C, would there be 12 frames of startup? Which is enough to poke out? Or would i be at some sort of + from 5C > would it be airtight?) Im so confused ;_;

http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2009/feb/17/how-read-frame-data-street-fighter-4/

the best thing to look at is active frames, startup, recovery, and on block. I think a good frame trap might be something like 2c-6D-j.D-2c, but I don't have the numbers unfortunately

+ or - in a game like BB means on it's block uncanceled, so 2c-3c works because it gatlings on the recovery frames, which makes it pretty much inescapable unless an IB-invuln happens.

[SuperKawaiiDesu]

http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2009/feb/17/how-read-frame-data-street-fighter-4/

the best thing to look at is active frames, startup, recovery, and on block. I think a good frame trap might be something like 2c-6D-j.D-2c, but I don't have the numbers unfortunately

Yes, but what i dont like about that is how they have to mash/attempt to jump out at exactly before the first 2C or between jD and 2C to get FC, and they can probably jump out between 2C and 6D, ruining the whole thing.

Okay, simplifying it. Can you get hit somehow between 5C 2C in CS? To my experience, no, but i just want ot make sure. Or in CT, if you can post the Startup(2c) and blockstun(5c) and tell me if you can get hit in between the two moves. :o

When you make that cancel, its not always airtight, so by making that cancel, you want to make that hole 4f> Right? But its kinda hard to come to that conclusion since i dont really understand/cannot find a number for how much + or - i am during a cancel done as early as possible, or would that be the +/- on block? Because never in my life have i been poked out of 5C 2C, and i know it isnt automatically airtight.

"

+ or - in a game like BB means on it's block uncanceled, so 2c-3c works because it gatlings on the recovery frames, which makes it pretty much inescapable unless an IB-invuln happens. "

Oh okay, so is it possible to calculate the amount of frames in a hole during a gatling? In this case, i want to know how many frames are in a hole between, say 6A and 2C.

[Jourdal]

Umm kind of embarassing, but im having trouble with this combo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1nP-gruS3I#t=4m45

Im sure im doing it as fast as it's done in the video but the 5A always counts as a black beat, you dash in after the first 22C correct? also in his basic RR after the 6D,J.D the 5B starts a new combo rather than continuing..am i just doing it too slow?

[VR-Raiden]

Umm kind of embarassing, but im having trouble with this combo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1nP-gruS3I#t=4m45

Im sure im doing it as fast as it's done in the video but the 5A always counts as a black beat, you dash in after the first 22C correct?

There isn't really a trick to that combo, it's just pretty tight timing. You have to dash 5A as fast as possible after the first 22C. That combo in particular though is pretty useless when you can just do...

5B > 5C > 3C > 5D (DC) > 6A > 5D > 22C when they're in corner like that.

also in his basic RR after the 6D,J.D the 5B starts a new combo rather than continuing..am i just doing it too slow?

Yeah, if you're talking about the HF (RC) > dash 6D > j.D > dash 5B > 3C > 22C combo, you're probably just doing it too slow. You can delay the j.D after 6D slightly so that Ragna is lower when he finishes, allowing more time to connect with the dash 5B.

[Jourdal]

I see, thanks for the advice, ill dry delaying the Jd,as for that first combo you recommended im also having trouble with 5D>22C, any tips for that?

EDIT-nvm got the recommended combo down and delaying helped. thanks a lot

[SuperKawaiiDesu]

So 3C Delay 5D DC 2C 5D DC jB jC JC jC j214C 66D jD JC jC j214C 665D 22C seems extremely stable and goes for about 4.6k ish, i tried it on most of the cast, works on carl and tsubaki too. Very nice, good for corners, but you cant really do anything off like, jC 3C because they tech out at jC

What do you guys do for max damage / nice meter gain off jC and jC jD?

[-Ladon-]

are you sure that worked on hazama? his sprite is usually very high after 3c-delay 5D

my jump in combo is usuallly j.C-j.D-5B-3C-5D-dash-6A-j.C-j.D-jc-j.C-214C-dash-5D-22C give or take a couple of hits.

[Spirit Juice]

Off of j.C you can do 5B 3C 2B 5C into a double BE combo. j.C j.D you cannot. If you manage to get j.C j.D, do a 5B 3C 5D DC 6A into single BE combo, ending with 22C.

[FlyingVe]

You can replace the 6A with 5C and you can do the combo even when they are just out of the 6A range. 5D>(DC)>5C>BE loop

Can somebody tell me what is the maximum number of hits you can have after BE to link to 6D>jD>jC>BE>etc? I've got a chance to play CS again and I wasn't sure whether I was screwing up or I had too many hits.

[SuperKawaiiDesu]

Yeah, those two are staples, i was looking for something a little more but i guess nobody really knows until console.

and anyone testing stuff off of like, 5B 5C 214A for 22C oki?

There has to be something better than 6D jD 5B 3C :<

And if im going to blow meter, is it better to do carnage scissors? You can combo after for like 4k+ and you get that nice little life gain too o>o

[VR-Raiden]

And if im going to blow meter, is it better to do carnage scissors? You can combo after for like 4k+ and you get that nice little life gain too o>o

That question came up a bit ago, here's what Veteru had to say about it:

About the 5B 5C Hells Fang combos you listed... if you're going to spend meter, carnage scissor nets you better damage, life drain & meter return.

In BBCT, hells fang RC combos had a more important role. 5C had such massive range that you could connect with it from a range where Carnage Scissor wouldn't combo (it would take too long to reach the opponent, so they could block), but hells fang would still work. In BBCS, because of the reduced range on 5C, this rarely happens anymore.

The only moves I RC with Ragna these days are Inferno Divider, blocked Gauntlet Hades, 2D and occaisionally dead spike (don't ask, hehehe...).

[SuperKawaiiDesu]

How punishable is 2D this time around? It seems alot harder to punish :\ and is there any real merit to RCing GH on hit? because i know you can follow up, but how hard does that followup hit anyways for meter return? i think you could get some pretty legit meter, with RC (land) 5D DC jB jC jC into double berial.

Also ALWAYS RC HF FOLLOWUP IN CORNER, if you combo off it you get like 45-50 meter back

Maybe the same could apply for GH depending on the combo. i know 5D gives legit meter gain so RC makes ragna hit HARD as long as you do meter return combos. The problem(not really lol) is getting that 50 meter in the first place. Lolcs

[Spirit Juice]

2D is unchanged from CT.

Normally, you'd RC GH just to ensure you don't drop your combo after it.

[Zero000]

if you space it right. you can get funny ID gimmicks from it. Some people punish 2d differently. Generally the punishes include some sort of dash up move into a normal

[VR-Raiden]

How punishable is 2D this time around? It seems alot harder to punish :\

It might seem harder to punish because you used to be able to just 5C it on normal block from almost max range, without having to worry about dashing. As you would expect, instant blocking makes it a very easy punish. I'll also just note that 2D puts him in crouch til the end of the recovery, allowing crouch hitting combos.

and yes, as with all "almost safe" moves on block, when you can tell they punished too slowly, ID can catch them.

I'll usually only do that once if I'm fighting someone smart though.

[SuperKawaiiDesu]

yeah its kinda hard to punish it anyways. as noel i just IB dash 2B 2C 3C 22BC 6C BnB but its pretty hard to punish as other characters, alot of attempts get CH ID'd

can i 662B 5C at max range off of 2D? because the thing i dont like is comboing after but losing the 22C oki because of max range, i dont know any good 2D combos for long range. normally i would do 5C 214A 5A 5B 6A into air combo but it doesnt seem to work in CS, much to my dismay D:

[VR-Raiden]

can i 662B 5C at max range off of 2D?

Yes if it works like CT, that's the best you can do off a far hitting 2D now outside of RC'ing, as far as I know.

I haven't seen much on airthrow combos for CS, other than going into BE in corner. Does midscreen air throw > immediate GH (misses) > land > stuff still work? (which btw, I still have yet to implement into my CT game ) Or maybe you can use BE in a similar way?

[Final Ultima]

I don't see why it wouldn't work. That said, there was that combo that showed that you can land a delayed Gauntlet Hades -> delay Keri Age after an air throw and still combo from it into a full Belial Edge combo, so whiffing it might not even be strictly necessary anymore.

[SuperKawaiiDesu]

Oh hot damn. Okay, 2B 5C it is! ill be looking for other HF RC combos, hopefully none too difficult. I have a feeling 5B 5C CS is probably the best, but that 22C oki is so nice~

[-Ladon-]

Oh hot damn. Okay, 2B 5C it is! ill be looking for other HF RC combos, hopefully none too difficult. I have a feeling 5B 5C CS is probably the best, but that 22C oki is so nice~

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8-0yPkLLO8#t=2m48s

for the record there are still ranges in which 5b-5c-CS will not connect, so there's still a need to use rapid HF combos.

[SuperKawaiiDesu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8-0yPkLLO8#t=2m48s

for the record there are still ranges in which 5b-5c-CS will not connect, so there's still a need to use rapid HF combos.

Yupppp someone just posted that earlier. But youll be hitting much higher numbers for much higher life gain. I would think the meter return would be less unless you are aiming for meter gain. So in that case, you could probably make back like 50 meter if you wanted, could you? because then that would just be like lol RC HF Awl dei and just get the meter back.

oh my god i love CS ragna im going to break my ABC buttons because ill be RCing so much :D

yusss 3C 5D 2C 5D jB jC jC into double berial confirmed to work on hazama midscreen, oh baby. exact number is 4634, plus a fucking boatload of meter

[Spirit Juice]

Off of 2D, you can also do 5C JC j.C j.D JC j.D BE into double BE combo.