[P4AU] Margaret Gameplay Discussion

[ThatHiroGuy]

Because hop j.2c loses to rolls hard, most likely.

 

Did you read my whole post? You can't hop cancel if 2C doesn't hit the opponent. You can't roll before 2C. Therefore, the point that most opponents will try to get out, and are safest to, is probably when you do 2C. And again, if they roll it, Margaret literally can't hop, leaving you blocking, or if you want, punishing their roll. 

 

As for backdashes, it's just one of those hard to call moments in matches. When you do mixup/blockstrings with her, you're going to have to judge the opponent by how well you've conditioned them, or what they catch on to. If they're backdashing a lot, then don't bother throwing out 2C, start throwing out a projectile afterwords. If they roll through a lot, then start doing what I said. I'm sure someone will find something nasty eventually, but for now, you're gonna have to play matches by the ear with blockstrings. 

 

Edit: Also, if the time comes where they roll AFTER 2C, then you could substitute j.2C with another normal that won't whiff them. Since you can do j.D so close to the ground, that will catch them at the point that they finish the dash, it's CH status, and you can combo from there. Hop j.D, that is.

[Loli Bacon]

Did you read my whole post? You can't hop cancel if 2C doesn't hit the opponent. You can't roll before 2C. Therefore, the point that most opponents will try to get out, and are safest to, is probably when you do 2C. And again, if they roll it, Margaret literally can't hop, leaving you blocking, or if you want, punishing their roll. 

 

As for backdashes, it's just one of those hard to call moments in matches. When you do mixup/blockstrings with her, you're going to have to judge the opponent by how well you've conditioned them, or what they catch on to. If they're backdashing a lot, then don't bother throwing out 2C, start throwing out a projectile afterwords. If they roll through a lot, then start doing what I said. I'm sure someone will find something nasty eventually, but for now, you're gonna have to play matches by the ear with blockstrings. 

 

Edit: Also, if the time comes where they roll AFTER 2C, then you could substitute j.2C with another normal that won't whiff them. Since you can do j.D so close to the ground, that will catch them at the point that they finish the dash, it's CH status, and you can combo from there. Hop j.D, that is.

 

I think that's what they meant. Rolling after 2C will make hop j.2C whiff. So again, she has to make a guess. I think it's accurate to say she has to accurately guess as to which defensive option they'll take and then use the option that punishes that. That being said, there's simply too many points in her strings where she has to guess in order to either continue pressure or punish their attempts to get out. She's a lot like Liz in that regard.

[ThatHiroGuy]

I think that's what they meant. Rolling after 2C will make hop j.2C whiff. So again, she has to make a guess. I think it's accurate to say she has to accurately guess as to which defensive option they'll take and then use the option that punishes that. That being said, there's simply too many points in her strings where she has to guess in order to either continue pressure or punish their attempts to get out. She's a lot like Liz in that regard.

 

Yeah, she does. It's not all bad though, because that's only one block string of hers. Technically, you don't have to go as far as 2C every time. You can just dash 5A>sweep. You could 5A>god's hand, you could 5B>5A>2A>2B>etc etc etc.

 

I think the biggest problem I'm having, and I'm sure others might be having is, she's got SO much to work with, in terms of normals and persona normals, and specials. She doesn't have what I'd consider... simple pressure. She seems to require a mixture of (amazing) situational awareness on ALL terms (zoning, neutral, pressure), and moderation. As in, you can't just use a tried-n-true blockstring 50 times and keep winning. You're gonna have to do some hops, you're gonna have to read a few difficult situations, you're going to need to have moderation in throwing that full screen projectile, etc etc. She's very precise, I think.

[AchedSphinx]

Did you read my whole post? You can't hop cancel if 2C doesn't hit the opponent. You can't roll before 2C. Therefore, the point that most opponents will try to get out, and are safest to, is probably when you do 2C. And again, if they roll it, Margaret literally can't hop, leaving you blocking, or if you want, punishing their roll. 

This part is somewhat confusing to me. What move are you using before 2C? I tried experimenting with 5C > 2C and roll. If I rolled when 5C > 2C was close, I would get a counter hit. 5C > 2C > grab to catch the roll works if Mitsuru is point blank with her 5A. Otherwise Mitsuru will win every time. 5C > 2C > grab doesn't work on characters with quick 5As like Yosuke. You get counter hit. I didn't use 5C > 2C > short hop, because it won't come out anyways, and you'll probably either go for grab or DP when they do roll.

 

The problem I see with roll is that if Margaret just down backs, she's no longer applying pressure, so it makes things tougher I suppose.

[Loli Bacon]

My problem is that Margaret is in a severely limited situation if they roll any of her stuff. There's a decent chance you won't be getting back out to neutral after that.

[ThatHiroGuy]

This part is somewhat confusing to me. What move are you using before 2C? I tried experimenting with 5C > 2C and roll. If I rolled when 5C > 2C was close, I would get a counter hit. 5C > 2C > grab to catch the roll works if Mitsuru is point blank with her 5A. Otherwise Mitsuru will win every time. 5C > 2C > grab doesn't work on characters with quick 5As like Yosuke. You get counter hit. I didn't use 5C > 2C > short hop, because it won't come out anyways, and you'll probably either go for grab or DP when they do roll.

 

The problem I see with roll is that if Margaret just down backs, she's no longer applying pressure, so it makes things tougher I suppose.

 

I'm going to try and take a video to properly demonstrate what I'm talking about. I'm not entirely sure what you're meaning, either.

 

Basically, here's all the possible scenarios.

 

-They have to block 5C, no exceptions. That is, if you're doing 5B>5A>5B first. Can't do anything but block.

 

-After 5C is their first option to roll. I'm practicing with Yu, since he has the most scumbag DP/Anti-Air/reach. (Not really, but he is pretty typical in those areas). If you roll after 5C, you'll be met with 0 hop from Margaret, however, he can NOT hit you, no matter how fast he dodge rolls through. He can't hit you with DP, 2B, 5A, anything. I'm almost positive you can catch this with a grab, I just can't remember what my testing resulted in, for that in specific.

 

-After 2C is another time to roll. This is where your hop input comes into play. If you press hop with downback held, it'll either hop if they block 2C, or you'll just keep blocking if they don't. Possible outcomes- Since this is rolling after 2C (they decided to block that), your hop is initiated and you hit a late j.D. They're in CH state.

 

-If they do nothing, you're free to do other things.

 

-If they backdash your 2C, your Persona isn't safe anymore, but the timing on the backdash is iffy. If they're mashing, they might get it, but they're more likely to get hit. Again, this is where you use your best reads, and instead of throwing out 2C, you throw out a projectile.

 

-They block 2C, you can now hop, but they backdash, or decide to not roll? You can act almost immediately, since a late j.D allows almost instantaneous Persona switching.

 

Like I said, I'll try to get a video of what I'm saying, but those are the best explanations of all the outcomes possible. There's more things you could do with this, but that's regarding my method.

 

Edit- Yes, people can hit 2C lol. That's not really what I was talking about, though. In the middle of a match, especially when they might not throw out the 2C at all, it might not be the smartest idea to try to 5A it. Not to mention, it's a pretty small part of the cast (I think it's only... Mitsuru, Yu, Teddie, and perhaps Rise) that can actually counterhit you for trying. The other portion of the cast only gets one of your cards, while getting nothing meaningful in return.

[AchedSphinx]

A video would help, since I'm still not getting the results you're getting. I just tried it with Yu. It was the same situation as Yosuke, Yu's 5A will beat her doing throw. The window is probably within 1F, because if I delay it slightly, she'll get the throw counter, in netplay I could see this working basically. DP won't hit Margaret because she's down backing and Yu's DP is 10F start-up, so he's unlikely to do something like that. He will 2B based on distance since that will beat her doing grab and possibly her DP.

 

Overall, I think the situation itself will be determined by Margaret's distance from the opponent.

[ThatHiroGuy]

A video would help, since I'm still not getting the results you're getting. I just tried it with Yu. It was the same situation as Yosuke, Yu's 5A will beat her doing throw. The window is probably within 1F, because if I delay it slightly, she'll get the throw counter, in netplay I could see this working basically. DP won't hit Margaret because she's down backing and Yu's DP is 10F start-up, so he's unlikely to do something like that. He will 2B based on distance since that will beat her doing grab and possibly her DP.

 

Overall, I think the situation itself will be determined by Margaret's distance from the opponent.

 

Okay, I see what you're saying.

 

It depends on how hard the opponent mashes, really lol. If you are feverishly mashing 5A while Margaret tries to grab you, you'll CH her. Hell, I'd go as far as saying it shouldn't be too hard to hit her out of the grab attempt, depending on your typical mindset after dodge rolling. Most people I've fought so far don't mash after a dodge roll, probably due to how easily you're counterhit from the dodge roll itself, and doing moves after it. But, eventually people will learn, so you've got a point there, you can't punish their roll if they go through 2C, however, they still won't be able to punish you.

 

I wasn't really saying this is the end-all be-all solution, more that string does give you quite a few options. It can branch off into most any direction you want it to, at any point depending on how you want to do it, and most of them leave you safe, which is what I think people look for in solid blockstrings. That, and of course, really oppressive ways to trick your opponent. 

[AchedSphinx]

Okay, I see what you're saying.

 

It depends on how hard the opponent mashes, really lol. If you are feverishly mashing 5A while Margaret tries to grab you, you'll CH her. Hell, I'd go as far as saying it shouldn't be too hard to hit her out of the grab attempt, depending on your typical mindset after dodge rolling. Most people I've fought so far don't mash after a dodge roll, probably due to how easily you're counterhit from the dodge roll itself, and doing moves after it. But, eventually people will learn, so you've got a point there, you can't punish their roll if they go through 2C, however, they still won't be able to punish you.

 

I wasn't really saying this is the end-all be-all solution, more that string does give you quite a few options. It can branch off into most any direction you want it to, at any point depending on how you want to do it, and most of them leave you safe, which is what I think people look for in solid blockstrings. That, and of course, really oppressive ways to trick your opponent. 

 

Well, you don't actually have to mash. You can advanced input the 5A and you'll get it out before Margaret can throw. I think you can still use the throw if the opponent has a slow 5A like Mitsuru or Sho, but you'll need to be weary of the distance. And though Margaret can't be punished for doing 2C, I guess the main issue is that it stops her pressure and she's forced to defend or try DPing.

 

An interesting route that might be effective is 5C > 214AB. It beats both roll and jump out. I wouldn't recommend the other versions since they're negative. 5C > 214C whiffs. 5C > 236D whiffs if they're close enough. If the opponent is really good at IB, they won't be pushed back a lot. If they try to roll during 5C > 236C, they'll just block. However, if they IB the 5C, they can roll and get a counter hit. 5C > dash cancel > throw will work. However, Margaret seems to be slightly negative on the dash cancel. I was able to mash 5A with Yu even after I blocked afterwards. Like before, if there's a delay, she can block it. If 5C is IB, well, it just makes it easier to mash 5A.

 

Eventually people will learn how to deal with Margaret, so I'm coming up with ways to combat that.

[Loli Bacon]

Okay, I see what you're saying.

 

It depends on how hard the opponent mashes, really lol. If you are feverishly mashing 5A while Margaret tries to grab you, you'll CH her. Hell, I'd go as far as saying it shouldn't be too hard to hit her out of the grab attempt, depending on your typical mindset after dodge rolling. Most people I've fought so far don't mash after a dodge roll, probably due to how easily you're counterhit from the dodge roll itself, and doing moves after it. But, eventually people will learn, so you've got a point there, you can't punish their roll if they go through 2C, however, they still won't be able to punish you.

 

I wasn't really saying this is the end-all be-all solution, more that string does give you quite a few options. It can branch off into most any direction you want it to, at any point depending on how you want to do it, and most of them leave you safe, which is what I think people look for in solid blockstrings. That, and of course, really oppressive ways to trick your opponent. 

 

This is a bad scenario for Margaret. Being "safe" after a string is fine but not being at a disadvantage is even better. Allowing them in on you while they can start pressure virtually for free means Margaret is probably not getting out of pressure any time soon. Most other characters hit harder than her off random hits/confirms, and so this is a losing situation to be in. Not advisable, nor is it okay to assume someone won't mash 5A when we clearly know it's safe for them to do so. Saying "use this until people learn how to beat it for free" is the easiest way to create bad habits.

[ThatHiroGuy]

This is a bad scenario for Margaret. Being "safe" after a string is fine but not being at a disadvantage is even better. Allowing them in on you while they can start pressure virtually for free means Margaret is probably not getting out of pressure any time soon. Most other characters hit harder than her off random hits/confirms, and so this is a losing situation to be in. Not advisable, nor is it okay to assume someone won't mash 5A when we clearly know it's safe for them to do so. Saying "use this until people learn how to beat it for free" is the easiest way to create bad habits.

 

For one, and most importantly, we're talking scenarios, and options here. Or at least I am. Not every scenario will play out advantageously, and I only explained further into that one because I didn't want there to be confusion about what could be done if someone started dashing through your 2C. I was wrong, and I wanted to clarify it. Even then, it's just an explanation of the worst possible case during that one, specific block string. One of a few, which I've mentioned before. I can admit you don't want to be on the defensive, especially with a character that doesn't have many options there. However, sometimes you make the wrong read, and should have done something else, something I'll explain further down. Making a bad read on some characters leads directly into being punished, at least here, you have a chance.

 

I also never said that you SHOULD be doing it until people beat it for free. I actually said "But"<--- most important part of the sentence, "But people will learn eventually, so you've got a point."--- 'But', in that context anyway, is more of a negative insinuation. It'd have been different if I said, "And people won't catch on to it for a while." More of a grammatical/personal thing, but it's really up to you how you read that. Either way, I don't really get where you think I meant that people should be doing this until that time. Pretty big assumption to make, given the words I used :P.

 

And finally, I listed a lot of different ways to utilize the block string. There's a lot of options at your disposal there, and it's ultimately up to the player to use them in the correct context. If you know your opponent is going to dodge roll 2C, then just don't do it, I actually mentioned this multiple times lol. I'll reiterate the point though- In MY opinion, Margaret seems to be a character where situational awareness is key. You will need to keep a close eye on how your opponent reacts to certain block strings, otherwise, you're just going to get dodge-rolled, back-dashed, or whatever else. She is NOT without options for these moments, though.

[Zouf]

I believe 5C > 236C is blockstring and safe (because of the distance)

 

5C > 2C will get punished if rolled. Mitsuru's 5A will punish it easily, or any other fast move with a decent range.

 

Her main problem is that she can't jump cancel any of her move on guard. Hop is fine and all but it's slow and your options are very limited.

 

Maybe delaying a sweep after 5C is a solution to catch rolls? Need to be tested

[Sadeyo]

I'm not a Margaret player but my friend is. There's no critique thread available on this side of the forums so do you guys mind making one or informing me if it's okay if I make it, I'll have some footage of him pretty soon and I would like for you guys attempt to help him out and other players that are to follow. We got to remember the confusion of finding the answers you want all in one thread when you can separate them into different portions.

 

I'll post the video here after it's done processing and eventually move it into the other thread after it is made.

 

ps- she feels to floaty for me to play and lacks that personal fulfillment of smashing your opponent face in with the character.

[Sadeyo]

Because I'm a nice person here's the Margaret video.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7-SVEjqQYU&feature=youtu.be

[stinkymonz]

idk I'm finding sweep to be the general solution to rolls, definitely. not sure yet if you get any automatic punishes but off your main normals like 5B and 5C you recover before they do on rolls so it's the right direction at least, to supplant your 5C 236Ds or 5B God Hands with sweep in between.

[So-Called-Chaos]

So I updated the wiki with some damage numbers and general attack descriptions, feel free to add or correct me if I missed something.

[Zouf]

5B > 5A > 5B > 5C > 236C is indeed blockstring, unless 5C is IBed, then there is a small gap where one can roll, and throw will punish you

 

But that's the safest route she has. Well, sweep delay still works.

 

CH j.C > land > 2C combo (depending on the height)

 

CH j.C > j.22C also combo

[So-Called-Chaos]

the great thing about her block-strings like the above one, is that even though none of her normals can be jump canceled on block, she pushes opponents far away enough so that its difficult to retaliate.

[gamewizard108]

that also means your pressure is done. marg has some decent fullscreen persona pressure, but its nowhere near as good as elizabeths and alot easier to deal with.

[ThatHiroGuy]

5B > 5A > 5B > 5C > 236C is indeed blockstring, unless 5C is IBed, then there is a small gap where one can roll, and throw will punish you

 

But that's the safest route she has. Well, sweep delay still works.

 

CH j.C > land > 2C combo (depending on the height)

 

CH j.C > j.22C also combo

 

Yeah CH j.C actually happens a lot for me during matches. Messing with that, and so far I've found one that leads into around 4k damage, without spending any meter at all.

[Loli Bacon]

that also means your pressure is done. marg has some decent fullscreen persona pressure, but its nowhere near as good as elizabeths and alot easier to deal with.

 

Exactly what I'm saying is a problem with her.

Oh, and delay sweep in blockstrings loses to IAD forward > jump in of choice. You'll eat hilarious damage.

What I'm saying is Margaret's RPS while she's pressuring is not in her favor at all.

[AchedSphinx]

the great thing about her block-strings like the above one, is that even though none of her normals can be jump canceled on block, she pushes opponents far away enough so that its difficult to retaliate.

If the opponent IBs a lot, they won't be pushed away. Margaret is weak to stuff like that. And people in Japan are mad dogs at IBing, so it should be interesting to see how things go.

 

I guess the number one pro-tip for dealing with Margaret will be IB everything she does.

[ThatHiroGuy]

Has anyone else figured out how to stay mid-air with her for an extremely long period of time? It's more silly than anything else XD

[R4KID]

https://vimeo.com/107560881l

[Loli Bacon]

That was 150 meter to deal how much damage?