[P4AU] Margaret Gameplay Discussion

[TheOneTrueScrub]

Can you go into more detail as to why she has a hard time against Rise?

[Lord Knight]

Same reason as Yukari - she can stay in an area of the screen that Margaret typically has problems dealing with and doesn't let Margaret set the pace of the match. In addition, her offense is very strong and difficult to escape, and because Margaret is so tall, Rise gets extra grimey set ups.

That being said, bait one BD and that's the round.

[Fortune]

I also believe she's still strong vs Shabrys but what's your opinion for when Shabrys sometimes retreats in the bull fortress where Asterius absorbs hits? (Or should this just not happen?)

[Lord Knight]

Wait and see what she tries to do with the bull. How they approach varies by the player. You don't have to really push too hard since you can counter what she does with the bull.

[Radori]

Margaret quick match up update:

Narukami - still hard.

Yosuke - not too bad.

Kuma - bad.

Aigis - difficult to learn, but she wins.

Minazuki - not too bad.

Akihiko - fine, but don't mess up.

Sho - fine.

Ken - she definitely wins.

S.Lab - fine.

Rise - not bad, but pretty tough.

Yukari - same as Rise.

Chie - fine.

Marie - annoying.

Mitsuru - probably Margaret favour.

The rest - she definitely wins.

I agree for the most part with this. Here's what I think:

 

Here's my opinion of Margaret's matchups:

The first number is Margaret.

 

Yu: 4.5-5.5 

Yosuke: 4.5-5.5 or even.

Teddie: 4-6 Good lord this shit just sucks. 

Aigis: Even. 

Minazuki: Very very even. One of my personal favorites.

Akihiko: 5.5-4.5 You gotta gamble when we are on defense and someone is gonna get hurt.

Sho: 5.5-4.5

Ken: 5.5-4.5 or 6-4. We slaughter Koromaru.

Shabrys: Even. Really f***ing obnoxious DP but our neutral eats Asterious.

Rise: 4.5-5.5 or even. Getting locked down REALLY sucks.

Yukari: Even but neutral is rather annoying.

Chie: 5.5-4.5 Patience is key. 

Mitsuru: 5.5-4.5 or even.

Adachi: 5.5-4.5

Marie: 5.5-4.5

Labrys: 5.5-4.5 6-4 Labrys' DP is actually viable! Oh noes!

Liz: 5.5-4.5 This one of fun!

Naoto: 6-4 Lol Syklone.

Junpei: 6-4

Yukiko: 6-4 Our 5A makes a lot of her pressure unsafe.CH 5A = meterless 3k.

Kanji: 7-3 I personally think this is the most advantageous matchup in the entire game. Seriously, what does Kanji do?

[LegendaryRath]

I really hate making matchup lists but Margaret beats Yukari clean.

[Radori]

I really hate making matchup lists but Margaret beats Yukari clean.

I just remembered that 5D is really cheap against Yukari as she doesn't have buttons to mash to hit Margaret out of it while cornered and her DP gets eaten. Then 3.6k meterless knockdown.

[Lord Knight]

I mean if you're using 5D that means you're reading for roll/B+D, but she can still jump on reaction.

 

It's a very lame matchup. Unfortunately, Yukari sets the pace of the match imo.

 

EDIT: Rath you should expand on that if possible.

[Radori]

I mean if you're using 5D that means you're reading for roll/B+D, but she can still jump on reaction.

 

It's a very lame matchup. Unfortunately, Yukari sets the pace of the match imo.

 

If she wants to jump out, that's fine with me!

 

Yeah, I agree with the controlling the pace of the match. We kinda have to move with how she's setting things up. 

[dive-slam]

I really hate making matchup lists but Margaret beats Yukari clean.

How so?

[LegendaryRath]

It may seem like Margaret is playing Yukari's game because of the fact that she can't just braindead win neutral like against most of the cast, but that doesn't mean the matchup is bad or even hard. Play slowly. Break persona cards. 5A shits on orbs, eats arrows, and outspaces all of yukari's buttons. It's tough hitting her in the air because Margaret doesn't hit the top portion of the screen very well, but there's nothing wrong with that. Hardly any characters can easily hit her up there. Margaret's mixup and knockdown game is better, with much higher reward (not just counting damage, also positioning/oki). Yukari's mixup is pretty awful at a high level, having to focus almost entirely on throws (in a game where throw option selects have become very common). There's a reason Tahichi dropped her FOR MARGARET. Margaret just does everything Yukari does but better. 

[Radori]

It may seem like Margaret is playing Yukari's game because of the fact that she can't just braindead win neutral like against most of the cast, but that doesn't mean the matchup is bad or even hard. Play slowly. Break persona cards. 5A shits on orbs, eats arrows, and outspaces all of yukari's buttons. It's tough hitting her in the air because Margaret doesn't hit the top portion of the screen very well, but there's nothing wrong with that. Hardly any characters can easily hit her up there. Margaret's mixup and knockdown game is better, with much higher reward (not just counting damage, also positioning/oki). Yukari's mixup is pretty awful at a high level, having to focus almost entirely on throws (in a game where throw option selects have become very common). There's a reason Tahichi dropped her FOR MARGARET. Margaret just does everything Yukari does but better. 

 

Thank you for the analysis. I'll try and play the matchup more and consider what you said.

And yes, Tahichi-san dropping Yukari for Margaret does give what you just posted a lot of weight.

 

I'll try and get more matchup experience in.

[Lord Knight]

Rath is pretty much right, I just feel like 5a has too much recovery to be the go-to to counter tools that are mostly noncommittal. A slow match being controlled by the other player isn't a good thing imo.

[OmnixTSC]

It may seem like Margaret is playing Yukari's game because of the fact that she can't just braindead win neutral like against most of the cast, but that doesn't mean the matchup is bad or even hard. Play slowly. Break persona cards. 5A shits on orbs, eats arrows, and outspaces all of yukari's buttons. It's tough hitting her in the air because Margaret doesn't hit the top portion of the screen very well, but there's nothing wrong with that. Hardly any characters can easily hit her up there. Margaret's mixup and knockdown game is better, with much higher reward (not just counting damage, also positioning/oki). Yukari's mixup is pretty awful at a high level, having to focus almost entirely on throws (in a game where throw option selects have become very common). There's a reason Tahichi dropped her FOR MARGARET. Margaret just does everything Yukari does but better. 

 

Margaret's 5A is good in this matchup, but I feel like you're overselling it just a bit. Yukari can place her orbs at a height where Margaret's 5A will only hit the persona (Unless she does her 214/j.214 series orbs, where you'll just miss them completely). Here, she'll be safe from all of your cancel options even if you do manage to hit the persona. If you try to 5B under the orb, you'll get CH. You can still run under the orb like normal and try to 2A Yukari to force her to block, but that would mean you would've had to commit already to just running by the orb: it's not something you can just react to. Also, Yukari's 2C outspaces Margaret's 5A by a bit, so you could get whiff punished (though you're more likely to just get put into block stun) and microdash sweep will beat Margaret's 5A clean just inside of max range.

 

Now for the arrows: 5A does not stop charged arrows at all, nor does it stop her 236 series. I don't know why you glossed over that, but I'm just going to assume you forgot about these two things. 5A also has a lot of issues with catching redirected arrows.

 

Margaret's mixup on a knockdown (especially in the corner) is definitely better and her oki is somewhat safer, but Yukari's mixup/oki isn't terrible either. Her reward from just hitting you with j.A/5A is really good, so even the standard high/low/throw mixup that she gets safely the majority of the time can be threatening. She also gets similar positioning from midscreen hits if she doesn't reach the corner + an ailment. It's straighforward, but you will still get hit by it often enough for it to be relevant.

 

As for the focus on throws...throws are definitely a big part of her stagger game (as it is for stagger pressure in general), but Yukari isn't too bothered by the fuzzy meta. Her pressure naturally deals with people fuzzy jumping and using fuzzy DP, so she doesn't have to go out of her way to bait either. If you guess wrong on a fuzzy attempt and she hits you...well, you're probably taking 4-5k and getting put in the corner with an ailment on you for absolutely no resources.

 

I'm pretty sure Tahichi plays Margaret more b/c she's more fun for him, btw. I've never seen anything that would suggest otherwise.

 

Hmm, I don't think I missed anything. Let me know if there's anything else you guys want to talk about in the matchup. I enjoy discussing this type of thing and hearing what people think!

[Radori]

4.5k meterless with an aliment is absolutely idiotic. 

Anyway, thanks for the input, Omnix. 

[dive-slam]

4.5k meterless with an aliment is absolutely idiotic.

Anyway, thanks for the input, Omnix.

Off better CH starters she can go past 5k. She can also stack damage on top of anything when she has resources, of course. Any hit from Yukari hurts- almost every starter she has will net her more than 3k meterless. If the Yukari player knows how to confirm, keeping up with Margaret in damage isn't really a problem aside from the ability to steal games- Yukari can always convert when she has a lot of meter but the damage isn't quite as high because no Hassou Tobi, obviously. Edited April 22, 2015 by dive-slam

[Capconian]

I've been starting to play the character, basically she is the whole reason I gave P4U a try after the discontent I had with P4A and it was worth it! having so much fun with her right now! So far, i've been having difficulty with neutral and how to approach and get in as Margaret.

 

any advice you can give me in regards to when to use j.5D and j.2D?

 

also, any combos or resets you can tell me where j.22D is used? I wanna apply that move to my arsenal.

[Fortune]

Okay, I'll try give it a shot.

 

In general, getting in with Margaret is almost effortless as several moves are traveling hitboxes and she can start offense from anywhere because of how displacing personas work. The only thing is making sure you don't charge in recklessly (I definitely do), because of how punishable she is on whiff. The projectiles are definitely good at covering these approaches so it's important to learn their mechanisms.

 

There are a few things to know about the air balls.

• Both of them are also head attribute, meaning an opponent with a good 2B can use its head invincibility to counter hit you if you're too close.
• Persona attacks can appear under the spot that projectile was summoned, meaning that you can follow up with more pressure.

 

Fireball (j.D)

• Faster but doesn't allow you to do anything else until landing > including blocking.
• Always appears at Margaret's location

They gave these restrictions so you can't zone out with fireball mindlessly but it's still very good.

Fireball is less risky when done close to the ground / at a space to stuff approach or retaliation. Stuff like an instant air backdash > fireball is good at neutral to draw a line in the sand, see what they do afterwards, and continue an offensive.

 

During pressure, fireball is good at certain spacings to make certain strings safe or even plus. Things like far j.C > low to the ground j.D is good at discouraging some mashing and you can follow up with throw baits, 2A, or other options depending on the character and if the player is respecting. Or say for instance, you force them to block j.B j.C in the air. You can do fireball afterwards and should recover before they do so you can step back.

 

It'll take time but just be wary of your spacing relative to theirs if they feel like mashing.

 

Iceball (j.2D)

• Pauses air momentum, but allows air actions after the recovery.
• You can make Ardha throw out iceball from a different location following another persona attack.
• You can throw more than one while in the air.
• It has a "Autocorrecting" property that can make Ardha throw the next iceball in the proper direction if the opponent moves afterwards

Iceball is still fairly risky, because they can run under you and wait for a large air unblockable 2B (Narukami, Minazukis come to mind) or other long-reaching moves such as Mitsuru 2D. You want to use it at a distance that iceball can intercept them from doing things.

 

Superjump > iceball is usually very good, you can then use your air option to airdash, throw a fireball, land then throw spear if you want a lot of screen control.

 

Or just throw another iceball while moving in the opposite direction. Throwing out moving hitboxes to dissuade the other from using their persona is a good tactic to implement well.

 

Again, you can use a close to the ground iceball to make a DO NOT CROSS LINE and then enforce it with 5C/j.2C depending on their choice but be wary of rolls.

 

Throwing out things like j.2C safely in neutral or j.22C as oki can allow you to make the iceball appear at that location can dissuade them from mashing the wrong moves to break the personas.

 

In pressure, Iceball is also relatively safe on block if spaced well and you can follow up with moves like a spaced j.C that could punish things like rolling out of the corner. If you're daring you can try iceball > airdash to the corner > j.C/2A.

 

As oki, you can use iceball after most knockdown combos with j.214B. 

• From midscreen, iceball > 214A slide is generally an instant get-in tool, you're also spaced ambiguously to throw and see if they hit a button. They should be blocking the iceball.
• Iceball > 5C is basically an anti-moving tactic to keep them in place as 5C appears well in front of you will basically hit in front of them and they will block iceball if they jump. You can play around with this and have time to move forward and then 5C. Or just wait after the iceball, and if they roll or something unsafe try 5C.

This is probably slightly advanced, but you can make the iceball appear behind them if you space certain combos correctly where j.214B hits under them/behind them and Yoshitsune moves offscreen afterwards.

 

Iceball is slower so if they have screen-filling options like Adachi's Atom Smasher/Akihiko Maziodyne/Yosuke SB Garudyne you will need to refrain using it. But things like superjump/double jump iceball can let you float over stuff like Minazuki Wings of Purgatory reversals.

 

There's plenty more to discuss with this, I just hoped to throw out simple ideas. Definitely look at some footage, see how the top players are using it and experiment!

 

 

 

j.22D is primarily in Fatal Counter routes, (usually by FC starter > filler > 2B(4) > j.2C > j.22D > route to ender). Personally I feel air icegrab resets are a little outdated since most techs can usually beat it (ordinary people definitely forget about it though). I might want to add that holding [1]D is useful for preventing unwanted j.22D as well.

[Capconian]

Wow. Thanks a lot! I thank you for the detailed explanation!

[JYaham95]

Does anyone have any combos for following up 2B on counter hit? I've recently learned that it's an ok reversal for mashing out of combos, but unfortunately I don't know any combos to follow up.

[Fortune]

Yeah we (should...) have that in the combo thread.

 

CH 2B is a 4K/5K meterless confirm depending on resources.......

 

CH 2B(1) > 2C > 2D > 966 j.22C > 214C > 2B(1) or 5B > 5C > j.2C > jump j.B > j.C > j.D > j.214B > (optional 214A > Hassou Tobi/Power Slash) - free meterless confirm

 

or  2B(1) > 2C > 2D > 966 j.22C > 214C > 2B/5B > 5C > j.C j.2C > j.C j.2C > j.214A > j.236236CD > 214D (tornado has to be spaced so all 15 hits come out and launch them)

 

2B has a little more range to OTG, 5B adds about 200ish damage to make things go over the 4K/5K mark but you have to be closer it's just preference.

 

Now the caveat with this is that if they block 2B and you autopilot 2C they may likely mash/roll. They can also bait it in such a way where Margaret just flies into the sky and a good 2B like Narukami swats it.

 

I sometimes like trying 2B > 5C since it's a tighter string at the cost of damage (you'd only get like 2B 5C 5B 5AAAAA 214A/236D stuff)

[JYaham95]

Thanks for that. I usually try to mash out with 5C or 236A and end up being countered, especially by Narukami. I'm pretty sure the Hassou tobi combos will be in combo thread then so I'll check them out now. Thanks again.

[Baf0]

LordKnight's Margaret evernote.

[Fortune]

^ Margaret players, that is your Bible. If needed, I will dissect some things to make it easier to chew for troubleshooting (eg: combo theory). It includes topics relevant to what I'm writing here.

 

I find it significantly harder to combo into my opponent without trying to bait a DP or have them make a mistake so I can go for the CH conversion. I'm quite aggressive I'm my matches and my regular opponents know this so they usually block low and wait for me to attack. I tend to do badly against Elizabeths who wait for my approach then 5BBB>214B at me. 

 

I face a few opponents who like to crouch and block against Margaret. I try to go for a 214C, but unfortunately they see it coming. (Not from over use, but from how slow the attack is). Perhaps I'm using a move prior to it that wouldn't normally allow for a 214C follow up? I need some advice on her mix up game I guess to keep my opponent guessing. 

 

Okay so trying to open up players is one of your hurdles since she can't traditionally jump cancel on block."Block low until you see the high" was a common habit I've noticed in early Margaret play since she couldn't jump cancel or do the universal 5A>2A>5A seen with other characters. 

 

The TL;DR solution has generally been alternating the timing on her mixups. You want to set up situations where 50/50s can happen at relatively the same time. Margaret excels at this because of the large number of options she gets after safejumps and blockstrings.

 

God Hand IS very slow and dangerous to commit to. You'd want to use that in situations where you can reasonably say "They will downback as soon as I start this string" to alternate timing. Even just using the long-time 2A > 214C will punish for habits to downback her blockstrings or test their patience/response with throws. 

 

However, these are generally safer examples without just relying of God's Hand:

 

Example 1: spaced j.22C - here you have multiple high/low options among others on your landing. This is also roughly +31 which means some options force them to eat another entire blockstring.

• land 214C - this is what you want when they pre-emptively downback or genuinely guessed the wrong the mixup
• Sweep > 214A - double low that's covered by the blockstun, and if they block both you can supercancel 236236C to make it safe at most spacings.
• Other options include IAD j.B/j.C/2A to get back in and start blockstrings.

Example 2: j.B strings

 

j.B j.C is completely airtight, and even though j.B /isn't/ an overhead they're going to have to standblock or else they'll get hit.

 

j.B j.C j.2B is a common double overhead corner string that is well known at this point, so you have to alternate the timing of high/low attacks

 

• j.B short delay j.C - j.C still hits and frame traps people pressing a button/switchblocking prematurely
• j.B delay j.C whiff - j.C is feinted where the hitbox never comes out and the animation is an illusion, you then have the option of 2A/throw/instant j.2B
• j.B j.C LAND - same options but you get the blockstring

Example 3: 214A / j.214B Knockdown

While not being strictly "safejumps" by definition, Margaret can position herself in a number of ways after a knockdown to make it hard to tell where and how she is going to land and still attack relatively safely

• IAD j.C safejump/empty 2A - This is the true safejump (from 214A). If you demonstrate it's effectiveness, this opens up options for empty jump low/throw setups.
• Jump back j.C - safe normal to bait reversals or rolling
• Jump over airturn j.B j.C - baits reversals that travel in one direction, also reverses inputs
• Jump airturn - Even without doing anything, an airturn advertises that you want to do a crossup. If you jump at a height where it's hard to tell which side Margaret will land while also being at a spot j.C or 2A could hit, then it results in a very tricky 50/50.

 

 

 

If you like to do 2A 5C 5B 5A as your blockstring, they might be familiar enough to know the blockstring is coming to an end and you will do some sort of finisher. You have a plethora of options after 5A that cover different situations but you have to decide their habits for proper selection.

 

(Damn that was more than I thought I'd write). Lord Knight covered a lot more of these options in his notes, so it's obviously required reading.

[KyrogiOneMore]

Hey, I've been playing Persona as Margaret since it came out on a pad which i've gotten used to but I've made the transition to stick as I struggle with long combos on pad and I hoped a stick would allow me to get past that. Unfortunately this is my third day playing on a stick and I know I'm not going to get instantly better or be the same but Im really struggling with pulling of her combos. For example her CH, I can go up to 2D> Jump> air dash but after the air dash I'm having a hug problem getting J.22C to come out as it will either come out to late and Margaret is on the floor at this point, it would come out as a  J.2C or it would come out but then its next to impossible for me to follow up with a dash the 236D. Has anyone else made the transition and had problems, or can any stick players help me out with the execution?