Kyosuke Kagami Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 I-no is kinda bananas now, though. At least compared to her former self. Venom is still a beast to master. Not really common to see advanced things with him
Linear04 Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 people want to win > people pick chars that are easier to win > people pick ino over venom simple logic rly
D.R.F. Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 You could always pick Millia.... or Faust.....
StylisH Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 people want to win > people pick chars that are easier to win > people pick ino over venom simple logic rly And here I was, believing people played the characters they actually liked. Shame on me. I mean, it's not like they play Millia, Ram, Zato or Faust. I even hear Sol and Ky are rare. Damn, my logic fails me again....
Destin Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 While venom might be in absolute terms more difficult, because his skill set is SO dramatically different than i-no's... Each could be relatively easier depending on what the player is comfortable with. I could pick up venom in 1/4 the time it would take me to play I-no.
SynikaL Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 While venom might be in absolute terms more difficult, because his skill set is SO dramatically different than i-no's... Each could be relatively easier depending on what the player is comfortable with. I could pick up venom in 1/4 the time it would take me to play I-no. I don't see how you could possibly have more trouble constructing a competitive I-no over a competitive Venom. Sure, Venom has some braindead 50/50s and corner pressure strings, but his neutral game requires a lot of deliberation and tidying up of the mental stack, to even get to that point. I don't think I-No's combos in Xrd are anymore difficult than Venom's either. Venom is really fucking good in this game. Only character that may control neutral better is Ram, but I don't think her ceiling is as high as Venom's, just more bluntly dominant (for now). -Kimosabae
Destin Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 I no has very weird movement and bizarre pokes that would make her much more difficult for me. I'm not saying venom would be a breeze, but ino's movement is enough to set her aside. Probably bed man too.
StylisH Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Both characters are an aquired taste. They have different tools, skillsets, strengths and weaknesses. Do not doubt however, that Venom does not belong in the high rent district. Venom is a whole different animal in this game.
felirx Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 I-no also has the added distraction that most of timings in her loops and combos are character specific. This is a factor for a lot of the cast of course, but I-no has one of the more varied ones. And J.DFD... It'll take a while for any new player to get it consistently without getting a burst.
Vashimus Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 I-no is kinda bananas now, though. At least compared to her former self. I-no got better in her oki game for sure (VCL YRC and j.D FD). Everything else is generally either the same or weaker.
Diveman Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Since my post got misunderstood.What I meant to say is, for all the time you have to dedicate to learn Venom you could instead use that time to learn a more rewarding character if you want to win. If you want to play for fun or because you like Venom, I have nothing against that and I 100% respect it. But if you really want to go serious, dedicate time into the game and win tournaments; he's not a good choice, even Dai said "don't play venom if you want to win tournaments".
Justice7541 Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Venom isn't even that hard guys, come on. Execution is pretty easy for the most part and he has the normals to make neutral work, when it works. If it doesn't you're just boned I guess.
nyyyyy Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 I-no got better in her oki game for sure (VCL YRC and j.D FD). Everything else is generally either the same or weaker. Pretty sure hes implying that the changes to her inputs suddenly turn her into a completely braindead character. Pretty sad that he doesnt even seem to be aware of the fact that an execution barrier only exists at the beginning of your journey. I dont really get why people act like Venom is such a hard character to utilize though. Yes, he needs some getting used to. But if you ever played a footsie heavy fighting game then getting used to his poke and normal heavy playstyle is anything but a problem. It fact, its actually pretty damn easy. The only thing that needs time getting used to are specific ball setups. Which is an innitial barrier, sure. But as soon as you got past that hes by no means hard. People in here keep talking about "competitive level". At a competitive level almost any character is hard to play. Even the likes of Millia and Zato who are far from being hard to utilize on a mediocre level (again, as soon as you got used to the input shemes). people want to win > people pick chars that are easier to win > people pick ino over venom simple logic rly Pretty funny that I recently saw way more Venoms than I-Nos in Europe. In fact, more people play Zato, Millia, Ram, Elphelt, Ky, Sin, Pot, Sol, Chipp. Faust is easily top 4 in terms of strength, yet very few people play him. Seems like power isnt everything after all. Ky and Millia are probably by far the most played characters over here. Britain partially has lobbies that consist of 5/8 Venom players. Doesnt seem like they are under the impression that hes hard (I dont see why anyone would think that anyway). Besides, I would claim that winning as a new player is a million times easier with Venom than it is with I-No. Especially new players will have significantly more trouble getting used to the ball mechanics and his rather long pokes or the fact that his basic grab basically is a command grab (which is impossible to tech, I still dont get why they removed throw-teching). I'd say that I-Nos tricks are way easier for a new comer to grasp. Hell, in round two they realized that they can dodge HCL by pressing 2. I dont really get where all this Venom pandering is coming from all of a sudden.
mynus Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 I-no got better in her oki game for sure (VCL YRC and j.D FD). Everything else is generally either the same or weaker. Lol ok guy.
Ryd' Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Venom isn't even that hard guys, come on. Execution is pretty easy for the most part and he has the normals to make neutral work, when it works. If it doesn't you're just boned I guess. Barring a couple of combo options over the many iterations, executing with Venom has never really been an issue, and execution for just about any character becomes a non-issue with enough mindless repetition. Utilizing formations in neutral against an opponent who doesn't hold still and being able to improvise in the many situations that can arise in a match are what take work, moreso for Venom than any other character because of the way his ball placements work. He can be reasonably effective on a basic level, but making the most of what he has to offer demands a lot more of the player than pretty much any other character.
Pomparomp Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Venom isn't even that hard guys, come on. Execution is pretty easy for the most part and he has the normals to make neutral work, when it works. If it doesn't you're just boned I guess. His pressure and combo options are all really finicky, and the smallest thing can turn them into a full punish for your opponent if you didn't see the drop coming. Venom requires a lot of knowledge and practice just to do a basic oki mix up.. He's really good, he's cool as hell, he's fun, and his pressure is as terrifying as it gets, but it's a long road to get there when you could just, for example, lay down a Millia disc and choose between 2k or tk. This is without even getting into ball set play outside of oki, which is both mandatory and requires about as much knowledge and experience as learning an entire other character.
nyyyyy Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Lol ok guy. How about elaborating why she suddenly is bananas? What exactly changed apart from a few frame adjustments, the addition of a really situational command grab and reducing the difficulty of her execution? Because I cant see how her gameplan changed.
Vashimus Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Lol ok guy. I expected that lmao If it's worth anything, I do concede she's very good. I'm just not used to an XX style I-no.
SynikaL Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Barring a couple of combo options over the many iterations, executing with Venom has never really been an issue, and execution for just about any character becomes a non-issue with enough mindless repetition. Utilizing formations in neutral against an opponent who doesn't hold still and being able to improvise in the many situations that can arise in a match are what take work, moreso for Venom than any other character because of the way his ball placements work. He can be reasonably effective on a basic level, but making the most of what he has to offer demands a lot more of the player than pretty much any other character. Pretty much. He's intelligently designed in the sense that the character isn't completely obtuse and doesn't deviate too far from the fundamentals, but the ceiling for the character is practically limitless and that can be daunting for anyone. Venom requires a lot of knowledge and practice just to do a basic oki mix up. Definitely don't agree with this. K Ball oki is pretty brainless. It's Vortex-y and straight forward stuff.
Pomparomp Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Pretty much. He's intelligently designed in the sense that the character isn't completely obtuse and doesn't deviate too far from the fundamentals, but the ceiling for the character is practically limitless and that can be daunting for anyone. Definitely don't agree with this. K Ball oki is pretty brainless. It's Vortex-y and straight forward stuff. If you hit the wrong button or move wrong, they get out. It's braindead once you've got experience under your belt and instinctually know what to do for the spacing, or when it's more reliable to for another oki setup, You don't just set and hit a dashing j.k or j.s and get a meaty ball. Like, the pay off is powerful, and he's worth the time investment to master, but I think you're underestimate how much there is to Venom if you're picking him up fresh.
TAI-X Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Reminder that Leo ranks himself C- in story mode, lol.
SynikaL Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 If you hit the wrong button or move wrong, they get out. It's braindead once you've got experience under your belt and instinctually know what to do for the spacing, or when it's more reliable to for another oki setup, You don't just set and hit a dashing j.k or j.s and get a meaty ball. Like, the pay off is powerful, and he's worth the time investment to master, but I think you're underestimate how much there is to Venom if you're picking him up fresh. So if I mistime or botch the oki setup in any way, they get out? How is that different from any other oki setup in the game with any other character? Especially in consideration of variations in wakeup timings? And don't mention that it's vaguely somehow "more finicky" than other character's oki options. Did you even read my posts on Venom? Just because I disagree that his oki is complex does not mean I think the character holistically simple. -Kimosabae
Pomparomp Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 1)I'm talking about the fresh venom experience. 2)I mean compared to, say, Ram, El or Millia, where you're have to actually be braindead to not get a meaty disc, grenade, or sword after a knockdown . They just kind of do their thing and then you get to focus on your thing. With Venom there's a thought process just to get to the point of doing your mix up. j.k will whiff if they're too far, j.s will whiff if they're too close, maybe a p set > 5p would would work better ect, It's not easy to learn, training mode is pretty much worthless for it, so you need to just play a lot of games against every character until it's in your brain and you can do it without a thought, and in certain matchups venom can't afford to fuck up that oki even once. By finnicky, I mean his combos are all character, spacing, and blocking dependent. It's pretty simple when you get a good confirm and can focus on it, but just watch Venom's and how often a seemingly simple combo will drop compared to any other character. I see it all the time watching Jonoisan and saw it all the time watching KiT. Yes I read your posts, lol. This is all before even getting into ball set play or how deliberate his neutral game is. I love Venom, but I completely agree with anyone saying not to play him if you want to win tournaments when you could just play one of the less punishing top 5 and get grips on them in a fraction of the time.
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