[Xrd] Tier Discussion

[Angry Guy of DE]

Pretty much that.  When you want to determine a character just go by this logic:

My character is good and can do damage and pressure without needing resources

My character is good and can gets better WHEN I have meter

My character good IF I have meter to do damage and pressure

My character is good ONLY when I have meter to confirm off of RRC because meterless confirms from pressure are poor.

Like May's oki only really is good if she can YRC so she can maintain advantage, Meanwhile Millia can combo and go back into her oki meterless and extra meter can be used elsewhere.

[rubedo777]

somehow I'm not sure with Ram being S, I feel like she is on the line with Millia., well her combo deals quite some dmg and her oki is nice but she has no health, no escape, and bad neutrals.

I've seen Batako getting destroyed by random Bedman.

Link to Batako getting destroyed by Bedman? I've only seen him destroying Tsubu.

 

It's hard to find any videos of Ramlethals getting destroyed by Bedmans, it's a very rough match.

[Destin]

I would argue for an S tier existing in GG. S tier I don't necessarily see as leaps and bounds above; rather, there is something that distinguishes them as being set apart, even if it's only by a small amount.

 

In the case of Xrd, there is a telling comment I heard about that was supposedly said by Ogawa, where he stated that the reason Sol was not top tier was because he needed to use meter to be truly threatening. I took that statement and used it as a basis to look at the characters who are usually placed in top (Millia, Zato, Faust, and Ramlethal), and I found that typically these characters are not reliant on meter to carry out their main gameplans.

 

Compare this to characters who you would normally put in A (Sol, Ky, and I-no, for example) and what you would see is that in some aspect, meter usage is a big part of their core strategies. As a Sol player I especially feel this is true, as YRC turns him from a straightforward pressure character into a real monster. But even with zero meter, a good Zato or Millia is perfectly capable of holding their own against the rest of the cast.

 

I mean it's subjective of course, but I always felt that S should be used when there is a "god tier" and there doesn't really seem like that in this.  The gap between the top 4 in this seems significantly less than the top for in #R for example.

[SoWL]

I would argue for an S tier existing in GG. S tier I don't necessarily see as leaps and bounds above; rather, there is something that distinguishes them as being set apart, even if it's only by a small amount.

 

In the case of Xrd, there is a telling comment I heard about that was supposedly said by Ogawa, where he stated that the reason Sol was not top tier was because he needed to use meter to be truly threatening. I took that statement and used it as a basis to look at the characters who are usually placed in top (Millia, Zato, Faust, and Ramlethal), and I found that typically these characters are not reliant on meter to carry out their main gameplans.

 

Compare this to characters who you would normally put in A (Sol, Ky, and I-no, for example) and what you would see is that in some aspect, meter usage is a big part of their core strategies. As a Sol player I especially feel this is true, as YRC turns him from a straightforward pressure character into a real monster. But even with zero meter, a good Zato or Millia is perfectly capable of holding their own against the rest of the cast.

It says something about the game's design when even the top tiers have some safety valves built into their gameplan (Zato's Eddie meter, Faust's random items, Millia's pin, Ram's setup lag). Luckily, even without being reliant on meter, they have their weaknesses.

[D.R.F.]

It says something about the game's design when even the top tiers have some safety valves built into their gameplan (Zato's Eddie meter, Faust's random items, Millia's pin, Ram's setup lag). Luckily, even without being reliant on meter, they have their weaknesses.

I forgot to say this though-fuck berry pine

[qwerty]

What does Bedman have against Axl that prevents Axl from shutting him down? I haven't really seen any Japanese Bedman vs Axl matches so I can't say...

 

From what I've seen, Bedman is a bad matchup for Pot. Yeah, even if FAB beat Tsubu.

 

It's not so much that Bedman "has" anything on Axl as much as it is Axl just not being that good at locking people down in this game. He can make some good reads and reap the benefits accordingly, but he usually has to spend some meter to do so, not to mention he commits pretty hard. Ky is in a similar situation except that he can lock down Bedman pretty well if he has a seal placed over him and at least 25% tension. Besides that though, Bedman will never have to sit there and take it against either of them.

[qwerty]

I wasn't going to comment on this list before, but it is messing with my head far too much to stay quiet. What this tier list tells me is that characters are utter trash which is not the case, instead they low tiers are not as strong as the top tiers. This tier list is as if someone made a list for the characters in fucking third strike or some nonesense.

I will agree, that with the entrance of the dlc characters, there is legitimately a C tier. However, NOBODY in this game is fucking Q or Akatsuki tier because that is what fucking D and C- minus tier tell me.

Fucking crazy

 

The first rule of discussing tiers is that they are relative to each game and only apply on an individual basis; being placed at D tier in one game does not necessarily equate to being D tier in another.

 

I consider Slayer to be the worst character in the game, and while I do think he is at a pretty serious disadvantage against everyone, he is far from unusable. It's moreso that he's easy to telegraph and has to work much harder to reap the same rewards that other characters get for relatively little effort. Similar to Bedman, except Slayer doesn't have the kind of control at neutral that Bedman can have in the hands of a skilled player, which is why I place him lower.

 

Unless someone discovers some new tech with Slayer that greatly expands either his options at neutral or his mixup options, I see no reason not to place him at the bottom of the cast. Again, a far cry from unusable, but definitely the weakest in the game, and by a significant margin at that.

[D.R.F.]

I can't imagine anyone using a D rank for a character considered competitive in any type of game.

I don't question your reasoning for what you believe shit characters are- I can see why people think about slayer that way, I do. I am saying, however, that it is unreasonable that any character within THIS GAME are so far behind. Or even that the tiers stretch so far. Too many characters have something about them that give them options against the other characters. What D basically says is that you need to be a god of a player to do any sort of work. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but im carrying myself away now so ill stop

[qwerty]

For what it's worth, I don't think the gap between Pot and Bedman is that significant, nor is the gap between Bedman and Slayer. Pot ended up kind of lucking out with the way he can utilize YRC, otherwise he would definitely be at the bottom.

 

I think you're looking too much in to the letter next to the character and not enough at what that actually means. Anyone that plays Guilty Gear knows that bottom tier characters have historically been at least somewhat viable. All I'm saying is that the tier gap in this game is slightly larger than it is in say AC or +R, which doesn't say much in the grand scheme of things considering how well low tier characters can do in those games.

[D.R.F.]

Viable characters wouldn't be rated so low to begin with, and the spectrum wouldn't be so large if there wasn't a problem. That's all im saying

On another note, 2015/1/21 GGXrd H.H stream - Sharon(EL) vs Ogawa(…: http://youtu.be/CwOQui95_3Y

This bitch is a problem lol

[greatfernman]

I can't imagine anyone using a D rank for a character considered competitive in any type of game.

Letters are compeltely arbitrary and his definition of D in Xrd could be entirely different from your definition of D.

The space betweens tiers is also completely arbitrary, why do you seem to be having so much trouble understanding this.

[qwerty]

I wouldn't say they're completely arbitrary, but you are essentially right, yes.

 

I'm not trying to see this thread go off on a tangent it probably shouldn't, so I would just drop the subject entirely for now.

[Istillduno]

Thanks for the heads up on May and Ram's placements, they make a lot more sense to me now.

[D.R.F.]

Letters are compeltely arbitrary and his definition of D in Xrd could be entirely different from your definition of D.

The space betweens tiers is also completely arbitrary, why do you seem to be having so much trouble understanding this.

Ill just drop it then. It's not that I don't understand, it's that it doesn't make sense. A D grade IS passing (most of the time though it might as well be failing)

[Vashimus]

I don't think Slayer is THAT terrible, but then again I've been getting bodied by Roldy online for the past couple days.

[StylisH]

I don't think Slayer is THAT terrible, but then again I've been getting bodied by Roldy online for the past couple days.

 

The problem with Slayer is due mostly to the system mechanics and the nerfs to his more bullshit viable offensive options.  He's not terrible, just not as "wtf" as a lot of characters above him.

[Dreiko]

On the one hand, tier lists. On the other hand, FAB gets Dan 19 and is top ranked with Potemkin who is basically the worst char in the game.

 

 

Conclusion; the game is balanced enough that while there's definitely some chars who do better than others, everyone is "viable enough" for it to not be impossible for people to main who they feel like maining without being unable to remain competitive, which is all that really matters.

[StylisH]

On the one hand, tier lists. On the other hand, FAB gets Dan 19 and is top ranked with Potemkin who is basically the worst char in the game.

 

 

Conclusion; the game is balanced enough that while there's definitely some chars who do better than others, everyone is "viable enough" for it to not be impossible for people to main who they feel like maining without being unable to remain competitive, which is all that really matters.

 

Sounds like GG to me

[Destin]

I actually think there is an advantage to somewhat static tier lettering. We could go all over the place arbitrary with our categories, but semi-static ones, being either within a series (all gg games) or within a genre has it's uses for cross game comparison.

If this is based on a static lettering system for all major fighting games, this gg would go from A+ to C+.

[Tong]

Any opinions on Leo? He feels pretty solid close-up and forces you to guess correctly in order to get out of his stuff. He also doesnt get outright killed by zoners apparently, so...

[king of heart]

For people who keep saying that Slayer is not good in this game.

 

Can you explain to me how did Adam a player who i always beat at Mikado's tournament manage to win a "perfect" round against Ogawa with Slayer ?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1421914688&x-yt-cl=84503534&v=HoQ4-vP4eBk&feature=player_detailpage#t=128

 

Nobody managed to do that

[Dreiko]

For people who keep saying that Slayer is not good in this game.

 

Can you explain to me how did Adam a player who i always beat at Mikado's tournament manage to win a "perfect" round against Ogawa with Slayer ?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1421914688&x-yt-cl=84503534&v=HoQ4-vP4eBk&feature=player_detailpage#t=128

 

Nobody managed to do that

That entire round was just 2 hits. Ogawa got counterhit by a (the same) heavy counterhit twice in a row. It's called a lucky guess. It will happen once every 10000 games so it's not gonna change anything lol.

 

 

Oh and it was just one round. He lost the match. We don't judge tiers based on a single round of a match for good reason lol.

[king of heart]

That entire round was just 2 hits. Ogawa got counterhit by a (the same) heavy counterhit twice in a row. It's called a lucky guess. It will happen once every 10000 games so it's not gonna change anything lol.

It took Slayer only two hits to finish the round.

 

how can he be that bad ?

 

Edit.

 

Your second statement  left me totally speechless.

[Angry Guy of DE]

When Slayer can start his Under Pressure and It's Late pressure he can blow up people that rely on wake-up throw since It's Late has Throw Invul on start-up.

As far as damage goes Slayer is able to do A TON off of CH's like 6H, It's Late, and CWH but some characters can nullify his ground pressure with his average anti-air abilities.

Likewise Elphelt feels like a 4-6 to a 3-7 Match-up because the grenade shuts down so much of Slayer's ground game with no risk.  Not to mention her f.S has more range than 5K and is special and jump cancelable on block. 

God I hate Elphelt, who thought to have a light-weight character have 1.00 defense?

[Dreiko]

It took Slayer only two hits to finish the round.

 

how can he be that bad ?

Almost everyone who is considered bad can kill Zato in 2 combos off of their heaviest counteirhit into a stun. Sin can do it in 1 hit without counterhit. That's not what defines tiers. We need consistency, not a once in a lifetime pyrotechnic occurrence that will never happen again.