[Xrd] Leo Whitefang General Discussion

[ThatHiroGuy]

Hmm well since j.D changes his trajectory, has anyone actually tried to do j.D FDC?

 

I was thinking of Kara-cancelling, but I'm not sure how that works in this game, or any fighter tbqh. I just know I've done it before in SF, and that I'm thinking of similar inputs (for j.D->2/3P+K) that might work. Could that be it? 

[Maho]

I can do jD FDC pretty consistently with Ino and it doesn't looks like it works the same with Leo sadly. you can do instant jD YRC jK to hit crouchers but the YRC make it quite slow.

[ThatHiroGuy]

Some defensive options available to Leo.

 

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm25167408

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmBUj4NqMvU&feature=youtu.be

 

Uhhhh... So that video is pretty serious. Those were performed by doing what... is it 5H>P?

 

That combo that took like 75% of Venom's life... 

[Shazzeh]

I played Leo in tourney/casuals against a multittude of great competition yesterday, and honestly the character is great. You guys are shiting on his movement options, but his normals and specials completely make up for it. Backturned stance is actually kind of immaculate. When you condition the opponent to start looking out for certain things, Leo always has another option to make them regret it, and they ALWAYS do big damage.

Getting restand in the corner with him is the best thing ever. No one wants to risk reversal DP when a parry goes into 50% life combos. His backturned fireball is a zero frame super, so people can't be too hasty even when they're a good distance away from backturned Leo. Backturned K is throw invincible, so his mixup shenanigans aren't even "shenanigans" really. His backturned backdash has some good invincibility on it, so there's that too. Honestly, I've never been in a situation after are 236 HS where I felt like I was the one under any sort of pressure. Even when the opponent happens to block, they aren't really at an advantage at any point and their guard bar is crying for help.

You guys are right about it being hard for him to get in, but I find that the range and suction on HS make midscreen neutral a breeze. His c.K also has pretty good range, and canceling/roman canceling his guard points help you out a lot. HS into basically any of his dash specials starts up the mindgames, and puts Leo into a position of advantage easily. His anti air recovers ridiculously fast, and his J.S is really good for catching people mid jump.

One matchup I did have a pretty hard time with was Ramlethal, but, with careful use of J.D you can actually dodge A LOT of her dangerous traps. Even the sword blender. And as was said above, YRC'ing j.D gives you a really good high low mixup.

There's still plenty to be explored with him, but I think he's upper mid-tier for sure, if not higher.

[Pwnzor]

How do you get 5k into do to connect what's the secret

[Tomo009]

How do you get 5k into do to connect what's the secret

Do you mean flash kick?

 

There is no secret you just charge it, press 5K and quickly input up + HS. Don't delay the pressing until 5K has hit, just d it immediately.

[SuperJ]

late cancel the 2nd rekka, for a 13 frame surprise

 

best with 50 tension. if you commit to RCing the 2nd rekka, hit confirm into 5D RC the 3rd rekka. feels like a 2f window on normal block. if you read an IB, do the rekkas asap and it'll still work

[CCVengeance]

Finally got this bad boy. Now I feel I can start practicing this game for real.

[WaltzOfTheWolf]

So I got Leo. Trained with him a bit and went online. Leo has the absolute worst neutral like ever... lol! I fought a good zato and Ram. i know it's day 1 with him but holy cow! i was a pin cushion in these match ups. Leo definitely has potential and I plan to explore more of his options and junk. Zoners (and ridiculous pressure, looking at you zato!) will absolutely crush leo.

[Tomo009]

So I got Leo. Trained with him a bit and went online. Leo has the absolute worst neutral like ever... lol! I fought a good zato and Ram. i know it's day 1 with him but holy cow! i was a pin cushion in these match ups. Leo definitely has potential and I plan to explore more of his options and junk. Zoners (and ridiculous pressure, looking at you zato!) will absolutely crush leo.

He has above average normals, a sonic boom, a REALLY good and RELIABLE 6P, a flash kick and 6K/6H to turn a blocked poke into pressure.

 

His solid neutral is one of the reasons I can't see him being worse than low tier even if he doesn't develop tremendously. 

 

I do struggle against overly jumpy players and runaway projectile playstyles with Leo, though. Have the get a HS sonic boom YRC out or something, so you can make up some space in those matchups.

 

EDIT: For pressure, you have a flash kick, you can use it. Zato is a problem for ANYONE when you are blocking him. The idea when playing against Zato with ANY character is to never have to block his pressure and when you do find yourself in that situation, dead angle at the best opportunity.

[RurouniLoneWolf]

Didn't see a video thread so I thought I'd dump this here since there might be Leo players looking for good early footage. Bace streamed some offline casuals last weekend and there's a lot of footage of ZIdane playing Leo in it for those interested. There's footage of him fighting Rams and Zatos as well if you're willing to look for it (There's like 20+ hours of footage here)

 

Stream Archives

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

[Dime_x]

Training mode thoughts about leo:

The first 5 minutes were bad, after that i started to put 2 and 2 together about the character.

His back turned stance is a pressure increasing tool... He seems to be hard to hit out of his backturned stuff on block unless the opponent pre commits to an interrupt. At which point leo can... Just not go into bacturned, or use his dust to counter them. But i think those are very tertiary options.

He seems predicated on going into back turned and interrupting the opponents counterattack with his k or p attacks. Once the opponent respects those options and starts blocking, is when leo goes for the unblockable kick attack. I dont at this point think the BT overhead is to great on any yomi layer 1 stuff against non sleeping opponents once people learn to recognize its startup.

In opponents games, with people unfamiliar to leo i see the need to read whether the person deals with back turned stuff with mostly interrupts, or with mostly blocking. Leo has answers for both it would seems though his answer for interrupts is very unsafe, which means that it is pertinent that leo finds many differing ways to go into back turn as a surprise when upclose.

I do however think leo might have problems with FD chicken blocking out of his BT pressure.

His neutral game without backturned seems somewhat lackluster, but with backturned seems much more powerful because leo gets granted a very fast back and forward dash that cancel into one another or themselves for pretty decent movement on the ground.

Then he also has further shenanigans with BT dash going through the opponent. All in all looks like a solid mid or higher character with his tools. If he can frequently get damage or has some solids pressire setups after hit, i feel like he could be a real contender for a higher tier.

But this is just an appraisal of his tools. Things have a way of changing when people learn matchups and stuff. But I'm convinced by the little time ive used him that he will be my main and venom will be second.

[S.D.]

anybody have a IK combo who not start on counter hit with leo?

Stance 214HS, RC, IK mode, IK is the only thing I've been able to do, works midscreen though.

[WaltzOfTheWolf]

Holy cow!

Had about 30 matches with this guy and doods fuck what I said before. Leo is great! His 6P is damn good! And I found myself using his 5H.S to zone and stun hit for combos! I feel very comfortable with him now. Now I hope to get better!

[Don Blow Jon]

Leo frame data findings WIP. If you notice any errors please let me know to ensure the correct values.

Used various normals to punish certain moves on block and pinpoint the start up frames. block = recovers in time to block. Hit = punish.

5P 6 frame start up (tested versus Ky 5K (-5, block), 6P (-6, hit))

6P 10 frame start up (tested versus Slayer 5D (-9, block), Ky 2D (-10, hit)) *Both normals blocked with Leo in the corner to ensure 6P connects.

2P 7 frame start up (tested versus Chipp 2D (-7, hit), Sol 2D (-6, block))

5K 8 frame start up (tested versus Chipp 2H (-8, hit) and 2D (-7, block))

2K 7 frame start up (tested versus Chipp 2D (-7, hit), Sol 2D (-6, block))

6K 15 frame start up (tested versus Sol 632146HS(-15, hit), Ky 236K (-15, hit))

c.S 7 frame start up (tested versus Sol 2D (-6, block), Chipp 2D (-7, hit))

f.S 10 frame start up (tested versus Sol 5H (-9, block), Ky 2D (-10, hit))

2S 10 frame start up (tested versus Sol 5H (-9, block), Ky 2D (-10, hit))

5HS 15 frame Start up (tested versus Sol 632146HS(-15, hit), Ky 236K (-15, hit))

2HS 11 frame start up (tested versus Ky 2D (-10, block), Slayer 2D (-11, hit))

6HS 24 frame start up (tested versus Millia IK (-23, block) Ramlethal 5K > 4K (-24, hit))

2D 12 frame start up (tested versus Slayer 2D (-11, block) Ky 3HS (-12, hit))

[4]6S 10 frame start up (tested versus Slayer 5D (-9, block), Ky 2D (-10, hit))

[4]6H 35 frame start up (tested versus Ky 623HS (-34, block) Faust 6H (-35, hit)) *Faust's 6H blocked in the corner to ensure that 46H connects.

[2]8S 6 frame start up (tested versus Ky 5K (-5, block) 6P (-6, hit))

[2]8H 8 frame start up (tested versus Faust 2S (-7, block) 2H (-8, hit))

5D 25-26 frame start up speculated after testing versus Sol and Ram.

236S 15-16 frame start up (testing versus Axl ([4]6S (-15) with 236S hitting at max range so far not connecting) and Ky (236K (-15) blocked and punished with 236S close range))

With this method, the most I can gather would have to be start up, gaps in certain gatlings and static differences. To finish up the frame data (active, recovery and hitstun) it's either record the moves and analyze frame by frame or wait till Arc releases the official frame data.

[Drake Aldan]

Filled out gatling table.

 

http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Leo_Frame_Data_%28GGXRD%29

 

Yeah, I think I really like this guy. He's just too cool.

[Drake Aldan]

Dritt (214S, rekka ender) seems to be -7 on block.

236S seems safe even on IB (?)

236S > 236H is not safe (you can be interrupted before you get the parry out, unless your opponent has bad timing).

Just blocking 5H hold seemingly forces opponent into your BT mixups since it pulls them in and you can parry right away.

 

Does fS/5H, hold P do anything other than look cool? It doesn't seem useful... Can you even do anything after blocking with it?

(edit- ok, you can cancel both into 5/6/2H after a short period, seems like.

also, blocking in stance removes any pushback and you don't take chip damage. http://youtu.be/Fs4ExY1c9Ds

though overdrives blow right through it.)

 

I don't think he's going to be high tier, BT stance seems very "honest" with dicerolling/rock-paper-scissors (though BT backdash still has invincibility...?!)

and there's chicken block FD to worry about, of course.

I don't sense anything particularly "unfair" or "broken" about him.

But he seems like a good fit to me. Fairly low execution, good damage. And lots of attitude!

[zankoku]

All frame data: http://blog.livedoor.jp/ruubr/archives/40644447.html

Leo frame data: http://mayjunkie.web.fc2.com/leo_flame.txt

 

EDIT: Here's a transcription of the frame data. If anyone wants to get this copied over onto the wiki, it'd be appreciated.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UzH1OVPQNAOz4sZt7N0FBzWHmYgJKUevvteNAcy-QSQ/edit?usp=sharing

[Deezxnutz]

How are you guys ending your blockstrings? I assume you can either end in the 1st rekka although it leaves you at -1 or Sonic Boom RC for pressure.

[Don Blow Jon]

How are you guys ending your blockstrings? I assume you can either end in the 1st rekka although it leaves you at -1 or Sonic Boom RC for pressure.

Ending them with the 1st rekka seems to be my go to for ending block strings.

Don't really like using RRC Sonic Boom for pressure and seems like you're better off using YRC for it during in oki.

Also I'll start off editing the frame data into the wiki by the 26th if no one else has done it by then.

[zankoku]

Try to mix in 5K, 6K, and 6H to be positive on block, to make the opponent less willing to press buttons at the end of a Gatling string and unsure of where your unsafe points are.

[RentalBlackout]

I think I'm pretty much done editing Leo's frame data on the wiki, not too sure about some of the translations/info. If you see any errors, please correct them.

[ThatHiroGuy]

236H YRC is great for covering distance, will still cross up if you do it at the right time, and you can FD brake (if you fear a counter hit) or even go for a grab after the FD. 

 

As for 5H>Hold P- when I follow up with 2H , I trade. Since it's counterhit, it launches them and you'll still get a rather beefy combo off it. The other HS moves you can cancel the parry into are just a bit too slow to do anything meaningful, since most people will just mash until they counter you.

 

Off an air grab, if you really wanted to, you could RC>D since D drops you to the ground quicker, and you can almost immediately cancel it into anything on the ground. Mid-screen you can hold back while you're doing the throw/RC, press D to hit the ground, then immediately hit 6H for his heavy projectile, and it will keep them locked down. Alternatively, RC>D>66>236H when you hit the ground.

 

I'm thinking you might be able to TK his 236 specials during his dash to get a TON more space on them, very similar to Azrael. I noticed that when I went for TK 236H I almost crossed the opponent from 3 quarters of the screen away, and DID on some occasions. 

 

I like BT stance even if I'm out of pressure space. Projectiles generally don't matter, and his dash is goofy levels of fast. If I assess the situation properly, I can dash forward quickly, call out someones attempt to zone me, and parry it, or anti-air them. People tend to want to take advantage of it, which just works out since I expect them to be foaming at the mouth for the 'free' hits.

[zankoku]

Is there any point to doing a TK ground special with Leo? His dash works like a set-distance run - you can cancel it into an FD or an attack at any point in time.

[ThatHiroGuy]

Is there any point to doing a TK ground special with Leo? His dash works like a set-distance run - you can cancel it into an FD or an attack at any point in time.

 

He gains momentum (it looks like) at the end of his dash. You can tell, since when you dash and jump cancel the end of it (right before it ends) it'll propel him farther than it would at other points of his dash. 

 

That's why I was wondering about what I said. I'm not sure how it works, but Azrael can TK his ground specials and it ends up either making them slightly faster, or makes them cover more range. Something to that effect, anyway, since I believe it just cancels part of his dash to throw the move out preemptively. For Leo, I just feel like there's an actual difference when you TK them. I could be wrong.