[Xrd] Leo Whitefang General Discussion

[LockedAndClush]

I had some good times lately with ending strings with 2D and then going either [2]6 HS for oki, 236HS (whiff) for stance shenanigans (doesn't work in the corner of course) or delayed 236HS>YRC>throw to get more unpredictable. Overall his options after a knockdown are surprisingly fun.

[MasterXDrake]

So what is his problems? Who will he have difficult with?

[Chu-Fye]

So what is his problems? Who will he have difficult with?

Try fighting Ramlethal... You will understand, that all the shenanigans in practice mode and challenge dont mean shit.. versus human players..

Kinda like Sin... LOL

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Well ultimately, if the character doesn't operate well in neutral, then it's difficult to win. How Leo fares has yet to be seen IMO, but I'm kinda on the fence about how it'll work out.

[D.R.F.]

Are these the same people that automatically assumed that Elphelt, simply because is a gunslinger girl invented by ArcSys, she was going to be exactly or similar to Noel? People are just quick to jump the gun nowadays is all lol, glad so many people play fighters, but too much unwarranted unfounded complaints over nothing lol.

Anyways, based off the video breakdown or wtv, Leo's dp has a follow up hit for knockdown. Here's what I feel about that, based off it being a charge motion I'm under the assumption it'll be almost as good as VV. Having a follow up hit implies, like Sol, he is very much centered around oki and doesn't have as a terribly strong neutral game like say, Ky who's dp doesn't necessarily cause knockdown when hitting you. Finally, I wonder if like Sol and Ky's dp in ACR, if it's possible to do the follow up attack if it is whiffed or blocked, or if it'll be like Ragna's dp.

^Thoughts?

Not a dp. It is a flash kick sir:0

[WaltzOfTheWolf]

Waiting till Tuesday to get this guy! How are Leo's projectiles? Are they good tools to zone, and can they be implemented in combos? Much like kaguras projectiles? Also how is Leo's mix up game good opportunities for 50/50?

Sorry about the flurry of questions. :p

[Amadeus46Art]

Dont think you're gonna be able to zone too effectively with his projectiles. S version has no distance and H is really long startup. In fact I'm mostly wondering how Leo gets in to start his buttons.

His dash isn't the best but dash 5K is really good for covering distance. His jump arc is basically o-sol's but without the fast dash speed (and threat of o-sol's jH) it doesn't really do much for him?

He's much faster in BT stance but of course he can't block during it so it's risky.

[Chu-Fye]

Ill say this now ...many will disagree, but in the end will change their speech and sing a new tune..

 

LEO is very 50/50 AND IS MID TIER AT BEST.

 

Once the opponent understands how he works and his shenanigans.... Youre not winning at high level play.. PERIOD!!!

 

Iknow many will come say ohhh.. its only 2 days since he's been released.. give it a chance..

Well as a 20+ year fighting game player... I know whats what..

 

Wait n see.. You will all agree with what Ive said...

 

With that being said.. Mofo is Freaking Funnnn as hell.

[Chu-Fye]

Lets see...

1.) Worst dash in the game..

2.) Very poor neutral game.

3.) Projectiles are crap unless FRC,YRC or PRC'd

4.) Very risky fighting style with no Damage reward ratio per risk!

 

I can go on n on. 

That being said. He is viable in the right hands, but I see many picking him up cause he is a new charcater (and cool loking), only to drop him IMMEDIATELY when they realise he aint the magical uber badass that he looks like or they dreamt of.

[iBeK3n]

I just want my mixup city. Being an Order Sol player and a new Sin main... I haven't had my mixup fix for a minute!

[zankoku]

He's pretty fuckin' magical uber badass, I don't know what you're going on about.

[Amadeus46Art]

Leo's not gonna be in the same tier as Ram, Millia, or Sin for sure. His damage isn't as high as Sol or Sin's and his main way to keep people from mashing during resets is very high risk for middling reward. He can't dominate neutral like other characters so once you get in you HAVE to go ham and reset them to death, calling out every option they try to do. Maybe we'll figure out some strong hitconfirms into big combos but for now his damage output is average at best, made up for in standing resets.

Like I said, if his fS and 2S were one attack level higher he'd be WAY better. His parry I've seen compared to Jam's a lot but it's just completely inaccurate. They're actually complete opposites when it comes to the parry mechanic.

[ThatHiroGuy]

Some stuff I found in training mode last night, dunno if it's been posted:

Dash FD forward throw is REALLY good. Leo slides forward and has a big throw range, plus puts you into BT with knockdown. Use it!

Combo into rekka into stance change then a reset seems to be his gameplan. Dash 5K cS 5H 236S 236H (this is the part where you reset them) sK sS sH sS 236S 236H 214S does a total of about 240 on Sin. You can finish your rekka to make them not expect the reset or do sD if you think they'll mash.

6K is fully throw invul and special cancellable.

Trying to RC after doing fS>P or 5H>P gives you a PRC so it's really no good lol.

6H can link to 5P. I did 6H 5P 5K fS 2D, but I'm sure there's more practical applications.

You can YRC jD at two different points. YRCing it early drops Leo straight down. You can YRC it later and get a turbo fall like Millia has though for a dirty high/low.

cS jc jK combos on taller characters but really doesn't have much use. Might be able to set up fuzzy blockstrings with this though.

jD seems surprisingly safe? Waiting for frame data though.

sH sS combos seem spacing specific. Link worked fine in Sin at all ranges but I had to be close to Slayer to get it to link.

Biggest wish right now is that fS and 2S were an attack level higher. Being able to combo to 5H or rekka from them would be AMAZING. Gonna play offline with scene tonight, should get some decent notes from that.

EDIT: something I forgot. His s214H literally just ABA's old move. Don't block or block low and you get launched, block high and you get staggered. Can still probably blitz it or super armor through it. Unlike ABA though, Leo can't get his projectile to force them to block and make them get hit.

Where do you go in Columbus to play? I sent you a PM before but you never replied ;-;... I live there too!

 

Good info on Leo.

[Amadeus46Art]

Talk to @silmerion on twitter, it's his place and I don't wanna throw the address out lol.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Corner combos into stance super have been the highest damage output that I've seen so far. Dunno how easy they would be to set up, but if we can find ways to maintain momentum once inside, I don't think it would be that big of a deal.

 

But yeah, I wouldn't expect him to be Millia/Zato/Ram level.That's a given when you consider his character design. But that also doesn't mean he won't be competitive.

[ThatHiroGuy]

Ill say this now ...many will disagree, but in the end will change their speech and sing a new tune..

 

LEO is very 50/50 AND IS MID TIER AT BEST.

 

Once the opponent understands how he works and his shenanigans.... Youre not winning at high level play.. PERIOD!!!

 

Iknow many will come say ohhh.. its only 2 days since he's been released.. give it a chance..

Well as a 20+ year fighting game player... I know whats what..

 

Wait n see.. You will all agree with what Ive said...

 

With that being said.. Mofo is Freaking Funnnn as hell.

 

I think he'll struggle with this cast for sure, and when you think about the likes of Millia and Zato, you immediately realize how a character like Leo couldn't be THAT high up. However...

 

With a character like this, there's a lot to be discovered in terms of the highest damage combos, what is safe and isn't safe, what does work and what doesn't. For example, I've thought about the validity of doing... I think it's 214H in stance? Whatever that Azrael-6D-looking axe kick is- using an FRC while it's in the air about to land, and then hitting another button to get a mixup off of the opponents expectation of a high, or hitting D to counter their incoming attack. Or like I saw somebody do the other day... Do poke pressure, throw out the H projectile, YRC into the move that crosses sides and puts him in stance. If you time it correctly, it's a straight difficult to block (or counter) crossup. 

 

It's things like that, that I believe will make Leo a bit better than others expect. Meter is extremely useful in this game, and you'll pretty much always have 25 stocked throughout the course of a match, especially if you're on the offensive. Being tricky will be the key, though.

 

It's the same issue as Azrael has, except Azrael is stupid fast. He has struggles getting in on half of the cast due to their ability to run extremely well, then when he gets in, he has to make it count with the few mixup/crossup tools he has. And even then, there's tons of ways to combat it, like OS's, blocking well, and general mashing. That doesn't stop him from being extremely good though, because of his skill set. Leo has the same thing going for him, except with the added bonus of YRC and Blitz.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Azrael had the advantage of having awesome normals though.

[Kimchi]

One of the main things that i don't like is that he feels very immobile to me when its to his neutral game.
His buttons also feel kind of lackluster to me. =/..

[Chu-Fye]

I think he'll struggle with this cast for sure, and when you think about the likes of Millia and Zato, you immediately realize how a character like Leo couldn't be THAT high up. However...

 

With a character like this, there's a lot to be discovered in terms of the highest damage combos, what is safe and isn't safe, what does work and what doesn't. For example, I've thought about the validity of doing... I think it's 214H in stance? Whatever that Azrael-6D-looking axe kick is- using an FRC while it's in the air about to land, and then hitting another button to get a mixup off of the opponents expectation of a high, or hitting D to counter their incoming attack. Or like I saw somebody do the other day... Do poke pressure, throw out the H projectile, YRC into the move that crosses sides and puts him in stance. If you time it correctly, it's a straight difficult to block (or counter) crossup. 

 

It's things like that, that I believe will make Leo a bit better than others expect. Meter is extremely useful in this game, and you'll pretty much always have 25 stocked throughout the course of a match, especially if you're on the offensive. Being tricky will be the key, though.

 

It's the same issue as Azrael has, except Azrael is stupid fast. He has struggles getting in on half of the cast due to their ability to run extremely well, then when he gets in, he has to make it count with the few mixup/crossup tools he has. And even then, there's tons of ways to combat it, like OS's, blocking well, and general mashing. That doesn't stop him from being extremely good though, because of his skill set. Leo has the same thing going for him, except with the added bonus of YRC and Blitz.

This.. 7 thumbs up. I think we should sticky this post as a new topic.

[ThatHiroGuy]

Azrael had the advantage of having awesome normals though.

 

I won't disagree, but it was a small advantage in comparison to Leo, at best. Azrael's great normals pretty much amount up to 5A, 5B, and 6A (6A being situational). 5A and 5B were only so great due to their ability to be used at any length, for multiple applications. Leo doesn't have anything like that (that I know of), but that only makes him slightly less advantaged than I'd say Azrael had it. 

 

I don't want to make it sound like I think they're the same character or anything, I hope it doesn't come across like that, but I find it easy to compare their approach to a match. And for me, I find that most of it is similar for either character in the scenarios they're posed with. I think Leo only differs in the normals department because Azrael's were painfully simple to use, and didn't require thought in application. It'll just take a bit more work to find out which normals are good, and when to use them. Otherwise, Leo has almost all the utility and gameplans that Azrael did, sans a guardpoint.

[Chu-Fye]

One of the main things that i don't like is that he feels very immobile to me when its to his neutral game.

His buttons also feel kind of lackluster to me. =/..

His dash is the worst dash in any game. You can't close the distance well. If u try 236HS, it gets blown up by mashing.

Leo has to be precise in alllll his actions.

[LionHeartx]

Leo also doesnt have shit on Azrael's air normals.

 

 

it really puzzles me that they gave him the really low jump arc like O.Sol because it doesnt really benefit him because his air normals are whack.

 

it also makes it really hard to stop people from superjump airdashing away from H sonic boom. 

 

if he just had one or two tools for his neutral buffed (like f.S being a level higher or his rekka being +1 like Azrael's Gustav) I think he'd be super solid.   

[vanfleihight]

Started finding his frame data. I'll do frame advantage later, although the doc is open for editing if anyone wants to fill it out too.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1m-MAQepDrS9lTCGZyuaMwwN8i6sK2TpFdctlClNZvi4/edit?usp=sharing

 

Can anybody double check?

[Mumm-Ra]

There's no way to use jd the same way faust uses his j2k right? Because i've been trying and it doesn't happen.

[zankoku]

I transcripted all of Challenge Mode's combos (omitted single-action challenges). I'll take down damage when I get the chance.

 

12. 2K > 2D
13. 5H > 236S~236H~214S
14. aa 6P > c.S > j.K > j.H > j.236H
15. ch 6K > 5K > cl.S > 5H > 236S~236H~214S
16. (airdash) > j.K > j.H > 5K > c.S > 6K > 236S~236H~214S
17. 2K > f.S > 632146H
18. aa j.S > dj.K > j.H > j.236H
19. bt.K > bt.P > bt.K > bt.S > 236S~236H~214S
20. bt.P > j.S > dj.K > j.H > j.236H
21. bt.H > bt.K > bt.S > 236S~236H~214S
22. bt.214H > rc > 66 > 5K > cl.S > 5H > 236S~236H~214S
25. bt.D > bt.66 > bt.S > bt.H
26. f.S or 5H ~P > 2H
27. ch bt.H > 66 > bt.P > j.S > dj.K > j.H > j.236H
28. ch 5[H] > bt.K > bt.P > bt.S > 236S~236H~214S
29. ch. 2H > 236H (whiff) > bt.P > bt.S > bt.H
30. cl.S > 6K > 5P > 5K > f.S > 5H > 2D
31. [4]6H > yrc > 236H > bt.S > bt.214S
32. ch aa [2]8S > 5K > cl.S > j.K > j.H > j.236H
33. cl.S > 5H > [2]8H
34. 5D~8 > j.H > j.H > j.K > j.S > dj.K > j.H > j.236H
35. 5D~6 > cl.S > 5[H] > bt.S > bt.H > bt.S > 236S~236H~214S
36. 5K > cl.S > 5H > 236S~236H~214S > rc > 66 > 5K > cl.S > j.K > j.H > j.236H
37. (airdash) > j.K > j.H > j.236H > rc > 5D~8 > j.H > j.H > j.S> j.H > j.236H
38. bt.D > bt.214H > cl.S > j.K > dj.K > j.H > j.236H
39. bt.H > bt.K > bt.S > bt.H > bt.632146S > 632146H
40. bt.S > bt.632146S > 6[H] > bt.S > bt.632146S > 6H > 2H > [2]8H