[Xrd] Leo Whitefang General Discussion

[Drake Aldan]

Thinking about blockstrings.

 

Gapless:

 

5P > 5K > cS > fS or 6K or 5H

2P > 2K > 2S

6K or 5H or 2H or 6H > 236S

5H > [4]6S

66 > 5H > 236H (I have no idea how this works) http://youtu.be/CRwWGvIOTYc

BT K or BT P > BT S > BT H

(BT K and BT P chain into each other)

 

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+ frames (frame traps/gaps)

 

cS, 5K

6K, 5K > 2H > 236S

6K, 5H (a little risky but if you trade you win)

fS > 5H or 6H

5H > 6H

6H, 5K > 2H > 236S

 

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cS/fS can be jump cancelled but Leo doesn’t have good distance on his jump… jumping after cS is probably best

BT P can be jump cancelled, might be a good idea since you are usually CQC in BT anyway

5P > 5K > 5D or 2P > 2K > 5D for Dust mixups (doesn't seem like he'll get too many opportunities for this)

 

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fraud setup: 5H > 236H, late YRC, 6K

you can be thrown before and after the YRC but if they are too late they get CH.

 

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I don't see a lot of mixups here. Frame traps, but not much mixups...

I think relying on 236H will become a crutch, so I don't think it's good beyond using it every once in a while.

 

Anyone have any thoughts?

[Dime_x]

My thoughts are all theory and/or based on what ive seen in some gameplay vids since my internet is still currently terrible and no offline meetups have happened yet... But imho Leo's style seems to be:

Based on pressure. He seems like a character that is supposed to get hits by countering his opponents interrupts.

This looks sort of dubious because leo doesnt really seem to have any really great meterless ways to get back in after having pushed himself out...

So, tk me and what i will be exploring when i get more time is more ways to increase pressure after blocked confirms or ways to increase pressure via not using a confirm eg 2P dash 2P dash 2P dash... Etc etc not that that string would work or is any good, but just looking at ways to goad the opponent is to sticking stuff out. Watching zidanes early leo i was struck by how many hits he was getting by just beating his opponents moves when upclose.

And i dont know this game well enough with other characters but Leo's attacks seem to drain the opponents faultless defense pretty well... So that in itself may be a property of his style... Draining meter so he cant be pushed out easily...

Well thats my theory as i type this and dont have the game in front of me. His mixups all seem to be the kind of mixups that are reactable if the opponent has familiarity with his moveset... Not that they are BAD per se, but they dont look like they will be a high end use for opening up reactive people, which is what most high level players are. His overheads are slow and so are his crossups, and even his throw doesnt seem to be all that great for opening, So the primary way i see him getting openings is via pressure into counterhits.

I could of course be totally wrong. Zidane was using an okie crossup to good effect, but oki stuff comes after the initial hit. I'm talking getting that first hitconfirm in the first place.

[Dime_x]

Aight since i got a like from my last post and to follow up on what i said above...i looked into pressure strings as well as counterhit stuff... Once again i have basically no experience with GG and am a skullgirls player (been playing since it came out) i cant say for sure if any of this stuff i say will actually work in a real match, but given my previous experience with fighting games and knowledge of how gg works in general, some of this stuff should.

The more i play around with leo the more he seems like a pressure/counterhit monster.

Note that I'm taking the wikis frame advantage into account for some of this (6k being plus 4 on block mostly) so hopefully I'm reading the frames correctly and they are on block.

Regular stance leo seems to have a lot of tools to counterhit the opponent and tools to rush the opponent and keep pressure:

2k or 5k>5s>6k all hits combo and on block leo moves in closer to the opponent for pressure. Faultless defense makes the 6k wiff on block if you use 5 starter but that can be mitigated by using dash 2k instead.

Two obvious places that leo can forego using a chain and instead try for a dash in or similar type of offense is after 5s and 5h

5s just goes into a dash, the interrupt to them trying to hit leo out of his dash is 5s delay 5h if the 5h counterhits there are all kinds of ways that leo can just spank them proper.

5h leads into backturned pressure, and if they try to interrupt, leo has backturned k or dust to use. If leo doesnt want to go into backturned, he can just 6h. Why 6h? Because rc is pressure and 6h does a ton fd damage.

Speaking of fd, leo seems to burn through his opponents faultless defense on block, so that means leo probably wont be worrying about fd TO much.

Even a simple chain such as 5s>5s>5h>6h does half an entire bar in training mode. Meaning that faultless defense reads are actually a thing for leo rather than just something needing to be played around.

His noteworthy normals as i see them:

5k = moves forward and has a higher hitbox than 2k which makes it a great neutral game offensive tool coming from Leo's limited dash range, and is also a good pressure tool in blockstrings.

2k = hits low and gains a pursuit ability from a dash, seems to be most effective in okizeme for the low and after yrc boom lockdown to make use of the pursuit dash ability. 5k is better for neutral imho cause of the higher hitbox and rush forward attribute.

5h = a godlike normal with its ability to shift into stance, give a means of saving oneself from retaliation on wiff, give fat counterhit combos, maintain a great reach, go offensive via 5h>6h, and vacuum on hit and block, liberal smart use of this normal seems like alot of what Leo's neutral was designed for, because the move is so versatile.

5s = near exact same thing as 5h only with more speed, less range and less damage. Seems like a harder normal to learn to use, cause of its lack of range, but also seems like it may end up being one of Leo's most important tools, perhaps even eclipsing 5h at higher levels.

6k = +4 on block? If that is correct then this move is stellar in certain blockstrings as it will allow great frame traps from 5s, as well as dash in pressure stuff after the 6k, also staggers on counterhit... Which is an awesome thing.

5c.S = seems to recover fairly quickly and allow for dash/frametrap mixups.

All in all leo seems primed and ready to rush fools down with this magnificent toolset that even allows leo some very good yrc and rc points.

An awesome character if ive ever seen one.

[Uncivilized Elk]

5h leads into backturned pressure, and if they try to interrupt, leo has backturned k or dust to use. If leo doesnt want to go into backturned, he can just 6h. Why 6h? Because rc is pressure and 6h does a ton fd damage.

Both moves can lead to backturned stance.

[Tomo009]

Leo seems really hard to get off you when he starts pressure. I think blitz shield/DP are the main things we will have to look for, because we can pretty much constantly frame trap with our chains, 6K,6H,6[H] for pressure resets and [4]6S YRC for dirty stuff, [4]6HS YRC for REALLY dirty stuff when they are expecting a normal pressure reset.

 

Leo has to work for his mixups (now that I've learned j.D isn't overhead, he really has nothing outside stance) but he has a lot of tools to force the opponent to respect him. You can use that pressure to sneak in a stance change and then your opponent is in trouble. Or a HS sonic boom and they are REALLY in trouble. 

 

Getting my opponent to block a HS sonic boom has been in the back of my mind while playing Leo, it feels like a really powerful situation, almost comparable to getting an opponent to block my I-No note.

[salatio]

Not sure how useful this is but you can option select his parry and the first part of his rekka with 236P+S so if either f.S or 5HS hit you will automatically go into his 236S and if you whiff you will get his parry.

[Dime_x]

This is waaay premature, but as I'm seeing leo right now and based off of many of the replays ive seen of the character... He is looking REALLY good. His damage seems kinda ridiculous with him having no proration on moves like 5h and 5s yet seeming to counterhit everyone with those moves into huge damage.

He seems to have troubles with jumpers, but maybe thats why his 6p recovers so quickly?

He has a good dp that is a flashkick so even though he cant spam it, he cant have it crossed up and he can rc it for mucho damage on hit. Or on block he can take the punish and burst out... Available to everyone with a good reversal i guess, but when i look at his offense it looks like chip/millia levels if good.

His neutral tools are looking rather crazy:

Sonic booms both have GREAT USES:

S boom covers the half screen area in front of leo and comes out quickly, its small range is of alot less concern when one sees that it beats everything it touches... So its a great counter poke basically or its great at nullifying fireballs. Either way, it keeps leo from getting overly bullied by long range pokes.

H boom shits all over the bottom half of the screen and nullifies poking projectiles.

236 s is offense in a bottle and is only -1 on block allowing leo to easily transfer into his pressure.

Saw a couple Leo's using the pattern of super jump, airdash, j.d as good movement stuff.

Really liking what I'm seeing from him so far.

An offensive character with a good reversal, good buttons, good damage, good AA and 2 good projectiles.. Its everything i ever wanted in a fg character and more.

[Uncivilized Elk]

Mid tier at best honestly is my bet. If he moves up it's because somebody find some ridiculous tech that is not immediately obvious, which I really doubt Leo has because he seems quite simple.

 

I think you're severely underestimating how well-made all the other GG characters are.

Also -1 on a regular block is not something that allows you to easily transition into pressure. No way no how.

[Dime_x]

Yes i am probably overestimating some things. Other characters have lots of bs as well, perhaps even way more than leo. I think my excitement is partially because he has all the things that "I" specifically can turn into strong stuff, versus a character like, say, ky whos strengths id have a tough time making work for my own playstyle.

[ThatHiroGuy]

Mid tier at best honestly is my bet. If he moves up it's because somebody find some ridiculous tech that is not immediately obvious, which I really doubt Leo has because he seems quite simple.

 

I think you're severely underestimating how well-made all the other GG characters are.

 

Pretty much this. It's not that Leo DOESN'T have anything to deal with the opposition, or lacks good normals. Everything he has is useful in it's own right, for it's own reasons, it's just not enough when compared to the other (much stronger) characters. Leo's 236S is good for offense, except... it's very risky to go for anything immediately after it (unless your opponent is afraid). Leo WOULD be able to take immediate advantage of the 236S situation if any of his normals were slightly better in activation times and hitbox.

 

I said it before, and I still hold the same opinion. Leo isn't the worst character in the game by far. He's got absolutely bonkers damage for just 50 meter, and that leads into setups that could potentially leave the opponent at 40% health before the match even went anywhere. His air game could be better, but he's a ground based, fundamental character, and his normals lend themselves nicely to that definition. He CAN be aggressive, but there's overly too much risk involved in it all if you're actually trying to open your opponent up (not easy outside of BT). All that being said, this playstyle just doesn't lend itself well to Xrd's meta. A lot of the best characters have really scary ways to keep you locked down during pressure, and even add mixup in some cases (Zato). Scoring a knockdown means some characters basically win, if you're out of a burst or meter. Leo is all too predictable outside of BT since his 'trickout' tactics can all mostly be beaten by simple mashing, and knockdowns don't really gain him anything if it wasn't by a throw.

 

High mid tier is the educated guess, for now. If some nasty tech is developed, easy A tier, since his damage and (some) tactics are pretty neat.

[Dime_x]

Question: the frame data lists everything as having a certain amount of advantage. Am i correct in assuming then, that the frame advantage is the same on block and hit with the exception of knockdown moves, or is the frame advantage only referring to block?

Also. Yeah i understand where you guys are coming from. Leo is a good fundamental character and can (probably) win against anyone, but he is hard to consider anywhere above midtier when his tools arent as bs as what some/most of the currently top tier, have. Like ram or zato or Faust or even elf with her unblockables.

I would hazard a guess that you guys feel like leo is a bit to honest in a game where the top tier has a good amount of dishonest bs?

Hmm only time will tell. I appreciate the concise feedback though. I learned a lot from it.

[ThatHiroGuy]

Question: the frame data lists everything as having a certain amount of advantage. Am i correct in assuming then, that the frame advantage is the same on block and hit with the exception of knockdown moves, or is the frame advantage only referring to block?

Also. Yeah i understand where you guys are coming from. Leo is a good fundamental character and can (probably) win against anyone, but he is hard to consider anywhere above midtier when his tools arent as bs as what some/most of the currently top tier, have. Like ram or zato or Faust or even elf with her unblockables.

I would hazard a guess that you guys feel like leo is a bit to honest in a game where the top tier has a good amount of dishonest bs?

Hmm only time will tell. I appreciate the concise feedback though. I learned a lot from it.

 

It's not that he's too honest, necessarily. It's just that there's EASY ways around a lot of things he throws at you, if you're not conditioned to block him. Mashing beats non BT parries, and most of his pressure game outside of BT. Super jumping beats his projectiles. You can grab him out of freaking 5K at ridiculous lengths. You can grab him (or mash for counterhit) out of 236H. Getting into BT and not getting punished for it is entirely based on your ability to Yomi correctly, or else you get hit hard.

 

BT is basically the best part about him if you don't count the insane damage from 5H. High invincibility on dashes, a lot quicker to move around the screen, decent anti-air, nice mixup potential, throw invul, crossups for days if your opponent sits and blocks, etc etc. It just has SO little viability to run for a long period of time, since it's literally the highest risk that exists, and getting into the stance is harder than even having it up most of the time.

 

He's got a lot of glaring flaws. More weaknesses than strengths. That sort of thing.

[Drake Aldan]

Question: the frame data lists everything as having a certain amount of advantage. Am i correct in assuming then, that the frame advantage is the same on block and hit with the exception of knockdown moves, or is the frame advantage only referring to block?

 

Only referring to block. Why there is no hit numbers I don't know...

 

I would hazard a guess that you guys feel like leo is a bit to honest in a game where the top tier has a good amount of dishonest bs?

 

Yes. Too much honesty = not top tier. Top tier is being able to apply pressure or mixups while taking little or no risk- Leo is dicerolling/rock-paper-scissors with hard counters to situations that leave him on his ass if he guesses wrong.

That's not a top tier trait.

 

Leo seems built for online. 236S becomes positive on block if the opponent hesitates, if there's lag, or especially both. His crossups, overheads, etc. can get ridiculous to block and yeah, you can do things like counter 236H with a throw, but defending against Leo shenanigans is gonna be a real mental drain on the other player, and it's going to be very hard to do consistently in any lag...

That's when you're on autopilot, not mixing in delays and mental tricks.

 

He seems to lose to people who can lame him out and play keepaway, so figuring that out will probably be the bulk of matchup study.

[Drake Aldan]

My mashy, laggy Leo, when he does well.

 

http://youtu.be/KBo0Ut2e0yc

http://youtu.be/QS8y-VrOZSQ

 

I haven't yet started to really apply blockstring variety, I've just been mashing through autopilot...

I should probably start using 5P/2P more in close quarters, but the lure of 5K is just too much.

 

Do you think 5K > cS > 6K will be a better autopilot string than 5K > cS > 5H? You lose some damage on hit (and 6H gatling), but with 5H you pretty much have to go into BT stance consciously to make anything work afterwards, else you'll get mashed out.

Or maybe you just don't autopilot and use both. :P

[Tomo009]

Don't autopilot, 5K c.S is plenty of time to confirm hit (my reactions are abysmabad and I can do it). 

 

6K would be better most of the time, because I'm pretty sure it is quite +. seems to allow pressure resets anyway, but 5HS isn't exactly a wrong decision to go to on block either, just gives more raw blockstun I believe if you want to go for something else as a cancel, it will be harder to mash out. That could be wrong though, just what it feels like to me.

 

Honestly I pretty much always go for 5K or 2K as well, incorporating more 5/2P would probably be a good idea for both of us.

 

It is hard to say doing things with Leo is wrong, because pretty much everything seems so damn safe! One thing I will say from your videos and it is an issue I have across multiple games at times too, is that you don't make as much of good situations as you could. Such as when you land a flash kick and don't do anything with the knockdown.

 

The blockstring where you caught the Zato after 6HS was good, mix it up with stance pressure sometimes, would be a good option.

 

Don't push buttons after 236S, it isn't a pressure starter, you do this a few times over both games. It works out once or twice but it shouldn't.

 

You gave up a really good advantage against May while you were in stance by cancelling into 236S, then got yourself hit by pushing buttons, should hammer in a couple of my early points.

 

You autopiloted 5K c.S into 5HS on an anti air hit, you could have just jump cancelled into a combo AND you got counterhit for it, this is a habit to get out of as soon as possible.

 

You were pretty much forced to burst after May's 5D, but generally that is a very obvious (so bad) place to burst. You should have lost the round there, but the May messed it up.

 

Second round against May really went your way, the pressure here was really good. You did 236S here, but it isn't so bad when you have your opponent respecting you, in fact it can be ok to do this if you don't think they aren't ready to react to it because they may react by pressing buttons too late.

 

Something general, you should sometimes end your combos at 236HS instead of doing the whole series. I feel like you end up in a stronger position after that than the full string. Dorito gives you a knockdown but not a super advantageous one and outside stance. With meter it is probably a good idea, but even then ending at 236HS and resetting will keep your opponent on edge and likely to feel they need to disrespect you, which Leo is well equipped to deal with.

[Drake Aldan]

land a flash kick and don't do anything with the knockdown.

 

What can I do with it? It doesn't feel like I have a whole lot of advantage.

My go-to (236H whiff on wakeup) isn't fast enough, so I've just been freezing afterwards.

 

[4]6S (YRC)?

 

Something general, you should sometimes end your combos at 236HS instead of doing the whole series. I feel like you end up in a stronger position after that than the full string.

 

Does anyone know what the numbers are on this? In training it feels like you're even, or maybe slightly negative. Sol's 5P seems to be winning out, and he also has the option of chicken blocking...

214S, whiff 236H, BT K seems to stop jumping, leaves you at advantage, and seemingly works at 236S's tip range as well...

 

Though, I suppose that all depends on wakeup timing and when you input 236H...

 

 

I sometimes go into random 236H combos when my fingers are just moving. v_v

As an unintended surprise, it seems to work well, at least at this point where people aren't used to Leo yet.

[Tomo009]

What can I do with it? It doesn't feel like I have a whole lot of advantage.

My go-to (236H whiff on wakeup) isn't fast enough, so I've just been freezing afterwards.

 

[4]6S (YRC)?

 

 

Does anyone know what the numbers are on this? In training it feels like you're even, or maybe slightly negative. Sol's 5P seems to be winning out, and he also has the option of chicken blocking...

214S, whiff 236H, BT K seems to stop jumping, leaves you at advantage, and seemingly works at 236S's tip range as well...

 

Though, I suppose that all depends on wakeup timing and when you input 236H...

 

 

I sometimes go into random 236H combos when my fingers are just moving. v_v

As an unintended surprise, it seems to work well, at least at this point where people aren't used to Leo yet.

Flash kick knockdown isn't very good, no. 

 

[4]6S YRC is indeed what I would usually go for.

 

Or simply dash up pressure, probably risky on a lot of characters but Zato with low meter isn't one of those.

 

 

236HS I'm not sure, I think even is about right, but we have stance D or stance backdash if you aren't feeling risky, which are both really good if you aren't sure whether you have your opponent's respect.

 

The idea isn't to end at 236HS all the time though, it is to mix up your offense so your opponent can't get hard reads on you, fill up their mind with too many variables. If your opponent is watching for 1 thing, they will respond much quicker than if they are looking for 3.

[Drake Aldan]

[4]6S YRC is indeed what I would usually go for.

 

http://youtu.be/OigJ0c2-A60

 

Seems like it.

 

What to do without 25 meter, though...?

 

If your opponent is watching for 1 thing, they will respond much quicker than if they are looking for 3.

 

That's true.

 

I guess I'll just have to make a cheat sheet or something, and put it in front of me until I learn the whole bag of tricks.

[Tomo009]

 

What to do without 25 meter, though...?

 

Against DP characters it is probably risky to go for pretty much anything, so you will need to get them to respect you.

 

Against other characters though you could probably close to meaty a 5K against them and start pressure from there.

[Drake Aldan]

Apparently Leo's fS can be countered by certain 6Ps.

 

http://youtu.be/XtVlMSSrFOk

 

Zato, Potemkin, Ramlethal, Chipp, Faust (trade or 5D), I-no, Leo (trade), May, Slayer, Venom (trade) can do this.

 

I can't be conclusive about the results since it wasn't the most scientific test... It could be something to think about when choosing to use fS as a spacing tool, maybe.

[Dime_x]

So assuming 236 s on block is as bad as every one says even though its only -1 and one should be owning their spacing when using it, cant backdash and/or rc be a good follower when its blocked? Dead angle for corner push seems like a thing as well? Hmmm... Ive always been able to be pretty formidable with -1 moves cause of mindgames and spacing in other fighters... But i guess that might not apply to leo, or gg in particular?

[Drake Aldan]

Leo can't cancel his backdash like Slayer can- so when you backdash after 236S, you might make them whiff, but you don't get a whiff punish. I suppose it's better than nothing.

 

I've used 236S > RC a few times (just mashing buttons, really). It seems like a good way to reset pressure, though it's somewhat expensive.

 

I really haven't had the opportunity to use Dead Angle attacks much... Hm, is it because I spend the meter before it gets to that point, or that I get preoccupied with something else...?

I know people have done it to me (they would rather Dead Angle me out of blockstrings/BT blockstrings than deal with all those + frames...)

 

236S's -1 being bad is probably related to the obvious animation and lengthy hitstop (... blockstop? Is that a thing? The amount of real time it takes for both players to get back to neutral and for the game to accept commands, I mean.)

It's easier for the opponent to react to the situation and take advantage of their +1, as opposed to you doing something like run-up 2P (i.e. ticking).

That, and 236S > 236H is gapless, so there's no real drawback for the other guy pressing buttons unless you start taking risks with DP/super.

[Tomo009]

It is mostly bad because you pretty much have a ton of other options which are + and could then be cancelled into 236S if they hit anyway.

 

The big ones being 6K and 6HS, which seem really really good.

[Dime_x]

I'm pretty sure there can be a gap in 236s, 236h... Cause i can make the computer block the second rekka crossup instead of non crossup like the gapless version by delaying the second rekka.. But maybe thats just the dummy being dumb.

But yeah, point taken about the hitstop that the move has, it definitely makes the 1 frame easier to take advantage of.

Well said.

[ThatHiroGuy]

Do you think 5K > cS > 6K will be a better autopilot string than 5K > cS > 5H? You lose some damage on hit (and 6H gatling), but with 5H you pretty much have to go into BT stance consciously to make anything work afterwards, else you'll get mashed out.

Or maybe you just don't autopilot and use both. :P

 

If you want to truly autopilot, and you're willing to use 5K anyway, you can just do 5K>5P then repeat it again to see how they're blocking. 5K>5P and then (hold 1)2K>5S>far 5S (if possible)>6S. It's not necessarily autopilot, but if you practice it enough it is. 

 

My honest opinion is that 2S is actually garbage. 2K fulfills everything you need from a low, and 2S gets counterhit a lot more/more easily. But anyways.

 

5K>5P is always nice to start off pressure to see how willing they are to block, and to fool them a little bit. Then you throw out more light pressure. Something like 5K>5S>5H>6H>light normal etc etc. I've been practicing a lot of blockstrings, and really, nothing is going to be too much more effective than the other, but I'll tell you if I find anything else.