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Zero Frame Whiplash: Throws in Guilty Gear


Digital Watches
  • So Xrd has been out for a little under a month now, and it seems like a lot of new people are interested in Guilty Gear because of it, which is awesome! I’ve recently started to hear more and more that new players are having trouble with a few key things, so to help with that, I’ve decided to write about a very important topic: Throws!

One-button throws are a fighting game mechanic that dates back to the first fighting game anyone cares about: Street Fighter II. A one-button throw is an unblockable attack that requires you to be within a certain range of your opponent. When they work, they come out fast. In SF2 and GG, they come out in 0 frames. Usually a one-button throw is done by hitting a specific attack button and holding either backward or forward. This means that if you’re unable to throw and attempt one, you get whatever attack is usually bound to that button instead.

There’s another kind of throw called a command grab, which is similar in many ways. Like a one-button throw, a command grab is an unblockable attack. Unlike a one-button throw, a command grab has a startup animation and a whiff animation. If attempted, a command grab will always start up, and if it fails to connect with the opponent for any reason, the command grab’s whiff animation happens.

Notably, both of these mechanics have several limitations that prevent them from being too strong. Hitstun, blockstun, and jump startup animations are all invulnerable to throws. In most games, there’s even a window, usually between 4 and 7 frames, where this invulnerability persists after the opponent leaves blockstun, hitstun, or knockdown state. This has an important implication: If you're coming out of these states, and the opponent can throw you, you can always throw them (Assuming you've got the same throw range as them)

Many fighting games made recently have opted not to include one-button throws, most of them include a universal command grab instead as their throw mechanic, usually done by hitting two buttons. Notable examples include SFIII, SFIV, P4U, BlazBlue, Melty Blood, and UNIEL. Like a command grab, throws in these games have startup and a whiff animation, so they can happen whether they succeed in hitting the opponent or not.

A lot of people playing Guilty Gear for the first time are having trouble adjusting to a game with one-button throws. That’s understandable, it’s a whole new system mechanic to play with, and a game with one-button throws in it is a pretty different experience from a game without them. But if you’re going to be playing Guilty Gear, you’re going to have to learn it. There’s just no getting around it, because one-button throws are the core mechanic of Guilty Gear.

I’ll repeat that because it’s important.

One-button throws are the core mechanic of Guilty Gear.

In Guilty Gear, you throw by pressing forward or backward and the hard slash button (this command is commonly abbreviated 6H or 4H). You have a ground throw and an air-throw, which can only be used against grounded and aerial opponents respectively. The entire game is built around throws. Every single character’s throw either knocks down or leads into a combo, sometimes with the option to do either. Since it’s 0 frames, it constitutes a universal reversal option and a universal punish at -1 for the entire cast.

Every single strong Guilty Gear player has their throws on point. If you run into throw range on wake-up, you will be thrown. If your block-string gives them a frame to act and you’re on top of their face, you will be thrown. If you dance around in the air on their wakeup, you will be airthrown. If you’re in throw range and they’re neutral for even a single frame, you will be thrown. If they don’t throw you, it’s often because they have a better punish for what you’re doing.

The designers of Guilty Gear are thinking about throws first and foremost in nearly every decision they make. A ton of moves have throw-invulnerability and no strike-invulnerability compared to nearly every other fighting game. Don’t believe me? Let’s look at some other mechanics:

Gatling cancels: If your normal gets blocked, you can cancel it into another normal so you don’t get thrown for being at frame disadvantage. If you chain enough attacks together, you can even push yourself out of throw range.

Instant Block: Be holding a neutral direction within 7 frames of blocking an attack. Reduces blockstun, reduces pushback. This is a crucial tool that has a very important function - Getting a throw while you’re being pressured. Instant blocking can make a weak punish into a strong punish, but it can also get you a punish in what would normally be a blockstring, because all you need is one frame and to be in throw range.

Faultless Defense: Hold two buttons while blocking an attack. This increases both blockstun and pushback, as well as reducing chip damage and letting you block some attacks in the air. Not only can you sometimes push an opponent out of throw range when blocking their tick, but even when they won’t be pushed out enough, you’re still putting yourself in additional blockstun, messing up their timing for the throw.

Air Dashes and Double Jumps: Because of these air movement options, you can change the arc of your jump, making your position in space less predictable so you’re harder to throw.

While these mechanics are obviously useful for a lot of other situations, throws are always there, lurking in the background, influencing every design decision made in this game. They’re the hidden force that holds the whole game together, and it makes it a fun, dirty game that feels different from any other fighting game out there, where every situation can turn around, and a subtle read can upend your entire game plan in an instant. Burst may have been Guilty Gear’s biggest innovation, and hard knockdown may be the most important design choice in Guilty Gear, but throws, more than any other factor, make Guilty Gear’s system mechanics what they are.

Which brings me to another important mechanic in Guilty Gear: Throw option selects. Arc put a lot of thought into throw option selects in this game, as evidenced by the ones they’ve prevented from existing: You can’t option select FD and throw, and you can’t airthrow after airdashing either. What you can do is choose what standing normal you get if a throw doesn’t come out.

To option select with another normal. press 6H+Any other button (Whichever you want to use) simultaneously. Note that because you can’t throw OS with FD, you can’t option select a backwards throw attempt at all. Most characters’ normals were designed with this in mind. This effectively means you have five throws, which are, for many characters, all different guesses about how your opponent will try to avoid your throw.

5H (When you can’t OS): 5H is a close-range move for every character. This is because it’s the only normal you can get if you attempt to backthrow. Backthrows are inherently more risky, because you only cover the options your normal hard slash covers if your throw is made to fai.

6H (When you don’t OS): Most 6Hes in the game were clearly designed to punish a backdash from throw range: They tend to reach pretty far, be either long hitboxes or have forward momentum, and have pretty bad startup for contesting other normals. Zato’s is weird because its hitbox is more about punishing jump back, but it’ll still tag some of the backdashes that don’t travel as far. If you call out that they’ll either get thrown or backdash, this is often your best option to tag them with (Although many characters can tag a backdash with their far slash, too)

6P: Every character has a 6P that’s upper-body invulnerable, though the startups, hitboxes, and properties of these moves vary a lot (But never as fast as a jab). For some characters it’s a good way to beat out pokes and for some characters it’s an extremely strong anti-air. It’s also important that it’s bound to P. A throw option-select with jab would probably be a little too strong.

Close slash/Far slash: This mechanic is obviously made to work with throw OSes. Most far slashes are your character’s quickest long-range poke, which covers the situation where you get FD’d out of throw range. A lot of close slashes are either a character’s best normal (In terms of startup versus blockstun) or a strong anti-air. Since jump and FD are two strong options against tick throws, this covers a lot of ground, but since it’s slash, it definitely won’t beat a jab.

6K: A lot of characters have a 6K so that they can’t OS with their 5K. 6Ks aren’t standardized and have a lot of disparate properties. Some are overheads, some are throw-invulnerable, some are just strange attacks. Characters without a 6K have an option select with their 5K, which is often a pretty strong option-select because 5Ks tend to be fast.

Another notable throw OS is Gold Burst. If you hit 4H+D or 6H+D and burst is available, you’ll get a throw if the opponent is throwable and a gold burst if the opponent isn’t. Since gold bursts are invincible and get you full meter for hitting with them, this can be a good callout for a lot of ways out of throws, though remember that bursts are throwable themselves.

The choice to use throw option-selects seems to have been made for a number of reasons. For one thing, it makes life easier for people who haven’t mastered their throw timing yet, either in general or in a particular matchup. Getting stuck in a huge move because you aren’t used to a 1F timing in an opponent’s string is a very punishing outcome for trying to use a mechanic the game designers expect you to use as your go-to fastest attack, and pressing two buttons isn’t very hard.

But even at the highest level, there are far too many options and far too many situations resulting from throw attempts to cover without an option select. Since this game has one-button throws instead of a command grab, throw option selects give you control over what attack constitutes the “whiff animation” for your throw, making a choice so you can guess what your opponent will attempt to do to get out of your throw.

I’m hoping that gives you a good idea of how throws work in Guilty Gear, and why they’re so important. Since so many of the game’s moves and system mechaniscs were designed around working with one-button throws, you can form a good fundamental basis for playing the game by thinking about when to throw, how to throw, when your opponent can throw, and how to avoid throws. All other aspects of neutral, offense, and defense tactics layer nicely on top of this basis. Thanks for reading, and praise be!

(Shoutouts to Mynus, Contra, and Amadeous for some helpful suggestions and editing)


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Stellarcircle5

Posted

This was really well put together. As a player transitioning from Blazblue, GG throws have been the hardest thing to adjust to for me. I'm glad you guys took the time to make a writeup like this, because I feel things are a bit more in perspective now!

Vyers

Posted

Overal a good primer for throws in Xrd, but there are a few things that I'd like to point out:

 

- Not every character's 6P has upper body invul (Elphelt's is an overhead with no invul).

- Not every character's 5H is a close range move (again Elphelt's is her longest range normal, and a dangerous option up close)

- The frame data lists throws as having 1-frame of startup in Xrd although they still work against meaties on wakeup. I figure either the frame-data's off or the startup is strike invul.

- I think it's worth pointing out that, in the case of forward and backward jumps, low air throws are much easier to execute by inputing your throw in the direction opposite from which you jump, because it prevents you from accidentally instant air dashing (9>4H or 7>6H versus 9>6H or 7>4H).

Digital Watches

Posted

-Sorry, I haven't messed with Elphelt much, but if she's an exception to those rules then that's notable

-Throws happen at the frame where you press the button. You could call this "1-frame startup" and many do, because the standard notation for startup is that n-startup moves hit on frame n, which means that a 1F startup move hits on frame 1 of the move (As opposed to an n-frame startup move hitting on frame n+1) Therefore, calling it that is technically correct. I prefer to call this "0-frame startup" because it's more conceptually clear. Throws don't have a "startup" to speak of at all, they either happen or fail. There is no animation at the start of a throw that has one frame of invincibility or anything silly like that.

-You can't instant airdash unless you go back to neutral, and it's way easier to do an early airthrow by rolling 96 or 74 than it is to go all the way from 7 to 6 or 9 to 4, at least if you're on a stick.

Vyers

Posted

- Maybe I'm mistaken, but I've always thought a move's startup frames were the number of frames that take place between the game recieving an input (direction, button, combination) and the move becoming active. From this frame of mind, a move that has no start up (thus activating immediately) has 0-frames of startup, and a move that takes 1 frame to activate has 1-frame of startup, animation or not. If you take a look at the frame data for Sol's normal throw in AC/+R it's start up is listed as "-" (which I always interpreted as 0), whereas in Xrd's frame data his throw startup is listed as "1". Perhaps I was wrong to interpret "-" startup as 0-frames, and it actually meant 1-frame; but, that would be misleading of the data, because moves that have "-" listed under parameters such as Static Difference, have a value of either 0 or NA.

- Touche. I have trouble feeling the difference between 9 and 6 without returning to neutral. When I go for 96H, I often either don't go far enough ending up with 9H, or go too far ending up with 963H; It seems I wrote off 96H as a viable possibilty, because of the trouble I've had executing it. If doing 96H consistently isn't a problem, than it is the better option since you can get an airthrow lower with 96H than 94H (or at least have more time to complete your input to get an air-throw of the same height).

Digital Watches

Posted

The convention adopted for frame data, at least in most 2D fighters, and definitely in all listed frame data in Guilty Gear that I've seen, is that "Startup" includes the first active frame, meaning that a move with 5 frames of startup will hit on frame 5 after the input is recognized and the move starts. 

I actually dislike this convention, because I think it's counter-intuitive to list "startup" and "active frames" as separate numbers when they actually overlap by one frame. It makes the math harder to do intuitively from reading the frame data (For instance, a move with 4 frames startup, 3 active frames, and 4 frames recovery is 10 frames total, because the first active frame is also the last "startup" frame.) I would love to switch to a convention where "startup" refers to the frames before the first active frame, not including it. But that's the convention we have, and converting everything over would be confusing to people who are used to the current convention.

I describe throws as having 0-frames of startup because they actually have no startup animation, but 1F startup is accurate under this convention, and that's why it's written that way in the frame data

Vyers

Posted

So I was mistaken, thank you for taking the time to explain startup in more detail; I understand it much better now. I agree that the convention of overlapping the first startup frame and first active frame is counter-intuitive (I was certainly confused by it), but I understand your point that converting all frame data to separate the last startup frame from the first active frame would be a pain for everyone used to the current convention.

 

The other reason I was confused about startup, is because the frame data for the previous two iterations of Guilty Gear lists throw startup as "-" not "1". Since "-" means "0" or "NA" in its other uses within the frame data, I assumed that a throw startup of "-" meant "0". As a result, I believed that startup and active frames did not overlap, because it doesn't make sense for a move to have 0-frames of startup if a move's last frame of startup is also its first active frame. Perhaps they changed the way throw startup is listed from "-" to "1" from Guilty Gear AC+R's frame data to Guilty Gear Xrd's frame data, in order to more clearly reflect the game and avoid this sort of confusion.

Spoony

Posted

The reason for "startup" to include the first active frame is because the primary use of frame data is punishing, links and frame traps, and the idea that a 5 frame move punishes -5 five moves, combos after/is a tight block string after a +5 move is way more intuitive than the KoF style where you need something listed as 4 frames to punish -5 moves/combo after +5 moves.

 

The only place where this actually introduces confusion is when people are talking about moves with no "real" startup frames being listed as 1, which is an edge case, so no, nobody's going to change the convention any time soon.

 

It would be nice if they were listed as i5 or i1 instead or startup 5 or startup 1, Soul Calibur style, since that's more explicit about what's going on, but whatever.

oldkingi

Posted

Hello. I'm a new comer to the guilty gear series so I clearly missed out in understanding some of the points shown here.

 

Some questions if you don't mind:

1. Block stun in Faultless Defense

- When you do this move, is there a way to measure the block stun and pushback? Visually, I remember that there is a change in the distance of pushback but about block stun I can't seem to know the difference.

 

2. Can't be thrown after an airdash

- But can you throw an opponent when his/her character is in the state of airdashing? Such as predicting an airdash from the opponent and then throw out a 6H or 4H (in jump state and in throw range) expecting that it would end in a throw. And if that is possible, can the opponent throw escape from this?

- Sorry in advance since this possible to test in training mode but i can't seem to recall a record feature in training. Probably I've missed it since the options I saw was really a lot when I first started playing GGXrd.

 

3. Bursts are throwable

- Does this seem that you can throw out an opponent when he/she is decides to burst but hasn't reached the burst animation?

- I can't seem to see the advantage of using the throw OS Gold Burst other than punishing a back step.

 

4. Throws are universal

- Does that also mean that the throw range of each character has the same distance? I think command grabs cover different distances as well (comparing Sol and Potemkin's command grabs).

- I'm assuming guilty gear doesn't have any exploits like kara-throws (from Street Figther) since the article didn't seem to suggest certain moves that cover more throw range.

 

 

Thank you for the article and the discussions about the frame data here. I didn't expect to learn so much in just the first visit here in dustloop.

sagacious

Posted

Hi oldkingi, I can answer some of your questions:

 

1. For blocking on the ground, FD always adds 2 frames of blockstun. It's a bit more complicated for air block and depends on the level of the move: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Attack_Attributes_(GGXRD)#Attack_Level shows all the data.

(note there the huge difference between blocking a level 0 move in the air and instant-blocking a level 0 move in the air - if the opponent is trying to pin you down in the air by mashing jab, you can often instant-block and then defensive airthrow!)

 

2. You CAN be thrown while you are airdashing - what you can't do is input your own airthrow after your airdash.

Incidentally, there is a record feature in training mode, though you have to go to Button Settings and assign record and playback buttons. You can also change which slot you save the recording to in the training mode options, and you can set playback to choose a random slot so you can practice against mixups and so on.

 

3. You can airthrow a burst at any point, even before or after the actual blue/yellow circle comes out.

One of the advantages of throw OS Gold Burst is that if the opponent did their own invincible move, like Chipp's Beta Blade, you will hit them where no other throw OS would

 

4. The throw ranges (and air throw ranges) are different for each character, and are listed in the frame data wiki. If you're curious, the largest normal throw range is Potemkin, followed by Slayer and Zato-1. The smallest throw range is Chipp, followed by Millia.

EDIT: I should note that the console characters (Elphelt, Leo, Sin) don't have their throw range listed on the wiki yet

I don't know of any range-extending tricks for normal throws.

 

The only "kara-throw" I know of for command throws in Guilty Gear is a trick with Slayer: because you can jump cancel his dash, and you can special cancel his jump startup, you can input 6632147+H with the proper timing to cancel his forward teleport-dash into his command bite. You can also use 6321447+H with the proper timing to cancel his backdash into his bite as a defensive move.

oldkingi

Posted

Thank for your time writing this sagacious! This really answers my questions.

brett_

Posted

@oldking / sagacious:

 

Just to clarify regarding Kara throws, though what sagacious said is true, Slayer's Bite is technically a special move, different than a throw, and you're cancelling it from a forward dash, which is not really different than anyone else doing a dashing throw. Kara throws in the 3rd strike sense (cancelling a normal during early startup portions directly into universal throw) don't exist in GG (as far as I know) because you can't /directly/ cancel normal move startup into throws.

 

However, you CAN cancel the startup of most normals into FD (and into Slashback, in the versions that have them), in the very early frames (first two frames, if I recall).

 

So you can technically simulate a Kara throw by FD cancelling a normal, then immediately throwing, though you need to find a character that has a move that actually moves you forward on those early frames (most moves intentionally have the movement occur after the FDC window though).

 

I believe there is more than one practical example but the only one I can recall off the top of my head is Johnny's 6K, which can be FDC'd to move you forward closer to throw range. However, it's not very match practical (I believe if you're frame perfect this puts you into throw range ~5-7 frames faster than just walking) so even with FDC'ing, Kara throws aren't really a thing in GG

oldkingi

Posted

Faultless Defense cancelling a normal is completely new for me.

 

Thanks brett_. When I was practicing for a bit, I remembered that you can FD while you are in a running state. I think this is common knowledge to some but after triggering FD and you immediately press forward again, the character seems to slide while in standing animation (e.g. a running Sol then FD then immediately hold forward). From this you can, go from command throw or just a normal throw.

 

I believe this is more practical than doing FD cancelling a normal based from what you've said. I haven't tested it yet though (FD cancelling a normal) which seems really cool.

Shinvergil

Posted

XRD is in a dire need of a universal grab escape system like AC, in my opinion. I find it ridiculous that you cannot escape from a universal grab once it is activated by pressing HS. I used to escape from uni grabs most of the time and found it as a skill because it had strict timing, looked/felt cool and sometimes took care of differences in distant air grabs. 

Digital Watches

Posted

I wish they had the 0F throw tech, because simultaneous throws resolving to "Quick contest of which option selects you chose" is a dumb resolution in my opinion, but I don't like throw techs as a mechanic. You shouldn't be able to make the wrong choice and get thrown and then escape just because you have fast reflexes.

Slaudial

Posted

I don't really see how it's possible that throws have a "zero frame" startup." That's impossible. The fastest you can get is 1 frame. Even attacks that are said to have a "zero" frame startup in SF4 such as Evil Ryu and Akuma Raging Demon Supers...........no. It's 1+0. That's a 1 frame startup. It may seem like a small thing to bitch about but bugs me a little. I even have heard Tager's 720 called a "zero frame" super. I.....what? No! It's 5+0 - a five frame startup! It's zero AFTER the superflash but super flash counts too y'know!

 

Wtf. Do people say shine in Melee have "zero frame startups?" No, they don't. It's a one frame startup.

Xtra_Zero

Posted

XRD is in a dire need of a universal grab escape system like AC, in my opinion. I find it ridiculous that you cannot escape from a universal grab once it is activated by pressing HS. I used to escape from uni grabs most of the time and found it as a skill because it had strict timing, looked/felt cool and sometimes took care of differences in distant air grabs. 

I completely disagree.  Throw breaks in general seem really superfluous and unnecessary.  @Watches For the simultaneous throw issue I really wish there was a more elegant way to solve it.  Imo just having 6H or 4H come out is already pretty elegant.  Lol what if you could throw with every button?

Digital Watches

Posted

Slaudial: I know, it's definitely technically "1F startup", in that it's considered to have connected on frame 1. However, as I mentioned earlier, I think the convention for how startup is written is wrong. Throws have no startup frames, because if they don't connect they don't happen. I try to reflect that reality by calling them "Zero-frame startup," but maybe it's clearer to say "Throws have no startup." I've never seen another move with no startup (And am similarly annoyed when people say X+0 supers are "0 frame startup")

Xtra_Zero: Well, you kind of can throw with every button. Throw OSes make that effectively a reality. They also make it so that if you get a simultaneous throw, you could technically get any throw OS. I would prefer to have simultaneous successful throws resolve to a neutral situation, rather than a contest of OSes, but maybe that's because I play the character with the worst throw OS options in the game @.@

Antaiseito

Posted

I would prefer to have simultaneous successful throws resolve to a neutral situation, rather than a contest of OSes, but maybe that's because I play the character with the worst throw OS options in the game @.@

Same here, in +R we had throw breaks happening almost every session. Seemed more fair, if players wanted to do the exactly same thing, to go back to neutral.

Hm.. but maybe it's considered balanced when some chars OSs lose to other chars OSs when throwing at the same time, in a risk-reward kind of thinking. So your char should not even get into situations where the other guy wants to throw you too.

Jason D.

Posted

Regarding "0 frames", just think of it this way:  No move comes out in zero frames.  It literally can't.  The moment you press a button, think of the frame you pressed it on.  That frame ALREADY HAPPENED.  You're looking at it.  The game will not go back in time and change what happened because you pressed a button during that freeze-framed moment in time.  What will happen is that the very next available frame will show your character start to perform that action.

 

So yes, throws occur 1 frame after the button is pressed.  The fastest anything can possibly be performed.

 

And the reason GG throws are called "0 frames" is because they have zero frames of startup.  If a move had 1 frame of startup, you'd press the button on frame 0, see the character wind his fist back on frame 1, and then throw a punch with a hitbox on frame 2.  That is one frame in which your character was preparing for his attack.  GG throws have no startup, so immediately after pressing the button, a throw will occur.

 

Incidentally, that's also why "zero frame after super-flash" moves can't be blocked if you were standing at neutral during the flash.  If you hold back too late, the game won't recognize that you pressed back until the first frame after the flash.  And the second frame after the flash is when you'll start blocking.  Unfortunately, the attacker's move has already decided to have a hitbox on the first frame after the flash.

StunningBiceps

Posted

First and foremost, thanks for the article! New to the series and this was a great read - do keep these types of write ups coming :) I've got a couple questions. A bit of clarification on throws. 1. Is it possible to throw a meaty attack? Say for example, you wake up into the active frames of a normal, can you throw on wakeup? Or, if the person miss times there meaty throw, can you thow their option selected move? 2. Can you 'throw people's limbs' as you can in Street Fighter? What I mean is, do moves have throwable boxes which would make it seem like your throw range is longer? Thanks a lot!!

Digital Watches

Posted

1. Yeah, you can throw meaties. Otherwise reversal throw would be pretty useless. Most good oki strategies have to work around throws, either by being out of range, by being in the air, or being throw-invulnerable.

 

2. Nope. Throws are straight up just proximity to the character, so while you can throw someone for their attack moving them forward, you can't "Throw a limb" in any meaningful sense.



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