LM_Akira

No real matchup strategies for characters just yet as I've had too little full on 2 player time on AC thus far but here's some things I wanted to bring up / note / point out. Vs Potemkin The 2 things that should probably worry you the most in this fight are Potemkin Buster and Slide Head. Since PB now has an FRC point, if (when?!) Potemkin lands a PB and has bar he can do monstrous damage in a few seconds and also set you up for the 6HS, slide head wakeup game. That means big damage in midscreen for him now. PB can grab limbs randomly and has horrendous range, so even when you're doing a short block string on him it's possible for him to PB YOU out of your attacks. Watch out for other PB tricks like backdash, PB and hammerfall break, PB. It may sound obvious repeating this old information but it's good to be aware of it I feel. Slide head loops are nasty if you get caught in one without a burst. Potemkin won't be throwing these out too randomly close up (as you can actually block it then) but it is a constant threat you need to watch for. To stop yourself being hit by slide head in open play you have a few options: 1) Backdash 2) Jump 3) Charge Burst 4) Fafnir 5) BRP/SV Back dash is obvious as you're airborne (and have some form of invincibility) as the slide head hits the ground. Jumping is also another basic option which is relatively risk free. If you're charging, a charge burst timed correctly will avoid the ground hit through invincibility, as will fafnir which has lower body invincibility during start up. Depending on the range, it's possible to score counter hits against slide head when using fafnir, giving you a free combo. You can BRP or SV on reaction (provided you're not already doing something) but back dashing is probably a lot safer. Lv3 BRP may score you a free combo depending on the range. If you get knocked down and Potemkin throws out 6HS as oki you can either reversal SV it or backdash. Backdash is hard against 6HS because if you're out by a few frames or your opponent's timing is a little off you can still end up being tagged by the move and taking considerable damage. But it's probably worth learning to reversal backdash on wakeup because Potemkin can also use Giganter as a mixup instead of 6HS...both can lead to him getting in slide head and then getting his otg stuff in, if they are blocked. SV won't work vs giganter but backdash does. Bizarrely it is actually better to let 6HS hit than block it on wakeup as it stops Potemkin from canceling into guaranteed slide head. But ideally you should watch out for what Potemkin goes for and either backdash or SV. SV can be easily baited however, even punished with things like judge gauntlet if you become too predictable. So it comes down to your opponent and what exactly they like to do. If you have a burst and are going to use it to escape a loop, the best time to burst is just as he goes for the otg 5K, it should leave you in a decent (read "safe") position. Overall I think this matchup can be approached from 2 distinct standpoints. One being rather defensive, holding back and charging up to make the most of your higher levels and the other being all out rushdown and mixing things up as quickly and as much as possible. Watch for his anti air 6P which can lead into either basic short retaliation combos or nasty tech traps. He has big range on his 5HS, 2D and 6HS (obviously!) as well as a few other things. His 2S now vacuums which can be a right pain sometimes and really helps out his combos. Taking damage off him is like fighting a tank as usual but you can land pretty solid combos on him near the corner. Multiple j.Ps or any fast jump in will stuff his super armour on hammer fall, just don't try to ground poke it when he's right in your face as you can often end up taking the hit. I find 2HS less useful as oki pressure now as it's lost it's throw invincibility so I tend to use 6K more vs him. That's what I've come up with so far I guess. I will add some info on the Venom matchup tomorrow.

Ok, so I updated the first post again and have a few things to finish off shortly on the GB front. I'm thinking, instead of having 2 or 3 10 minute epic vids on youtube for people to sit and wade thru, I may do short 2-3 min vids on each of the sections I've put together. Then, the Basics part really would be total basics for new players and everything else would be broken down individually. Meaning if you want to look at fafnir options or 2HS CH then you can just watch the vid on it, instead of fast forwarding/watching a long vid to see the part you want.

Fun Order-Sol combo vid: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn_b9wv0qeM&mode=related&search= Though the taunting does get annoying after the first couple of times.

Cool, I will just keep on with the practise I guess. I've always tried to learn it by doing it after fafnir but I don't know if I'm trying to start the combo from too far out. Close up I mainly go for dash 5K, 5S© or 5S©, 5HS but I never know the right range that the dash 2S, 5HS will still connect from. In working out the "ultimate GB list" I found that you can do this on Potemkin midscreen: Lv1 214S, dash 5S©, 5HS, HJC hj.S, j.HS, j.D, Lv1 623HS It does 161, exactly the same as the midscreen JI combo on him. The dash 5S©, 5HS works on almost everyone I'm finding, just with slight timing and spacing adjustments depending on characters. On Baiken, Bridget, Chipp and Dizzy it's harder to catch them with a JI combo...if you use hj.S, j.HS, j.D, the j.D may occasionally whiff. I will have the completed list of things done very soon.

Hey AFRICA, cool matches on GC. I've compiled most of the important stuff so far into the very first post here. So if you check my first post you'll see a whole load of things Order-Sol can do now. Yeah it's a lot of reading but some time in the future I'll work on getting it all capped and uploaded (or added into the instructional vids I'm currently doing). In the mean time, Gravity Flame is quite a useful combo vid that I came across the other day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49EcnNfWiLY On the topic of combos, how consistently can other people do the [whatever juggle] into 2S, 5HS hj.IAD j.P, j.HS, SV stuff? I find it very hard to link in the j.P, I normally miss it and the opponent/cpu techs or if I land it, it's blackbeat. I've noticed quite a few vids online where players only seem to land it as a blackbeat. kaqn nails it most of the time but occasionally he'll get blackbeat too. Does it rely on hitting your opponent with 5HS at some optimum height?

Vs Millia A link to some discussion to this match up from the Millia perspective: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2931 (2nd and 3rd posts mainly) Some other things to mention: Millia's FB ring stays out forever (41 active frames!) and vacuums on hit or block. It also launches for a combo on hit. If you hit her during the very first start up frames of the move the ring won't come out (similar to how fafnir can be stuffed by moves during early start up) but any later and the ring will still come out. In some cases she will be able to take the clash, recover and juggle you because you'll get hit and sucked into / juggled by the ring. The HS ring (delayed ring) also stays out for quite a while (33 active frames), something to bear in mind. Since Millia can combo from her throw again, always try to be mindful of it. She has slightly less range on it than normal chars' throws (only 40 dots) but if she throws you and has a hairpin and / or 25% tension you're going to be in for a long combo. She can almost take you from one corner to the next and back into midscreen again if she has the resources. Roll > throw or turbo fall (from the air) > throw or any kind of tick attempts are things to look out for. In the corner on wakeup, things to watch for are the HS or FB ring setups into low poke / overhead mix ups. Her effective overheads are: 6K (she does a handstand with her hair, fairly easy to spot as it's quite slow) and TK bad moon. Her 5D isn't that useful in her oki mixups as far as I can tell. Obviously look out for her jumping moves to if they're used close to the ground (her j.D has amazing range, I think she can combo after it on CH). Her only low pokes are: 2K, 2S and 2D. Her 2S gatlings into 2HS for a free air (ADC) combo. 2D would just knock you down again and reset the pressure. All forms of her rings can be blocked high or low so if you've got one in your face on wake up, the mix up comes from what Millia does next, which you simply have to react to. If she's knocked you down and set a FB ring, all she needs is 1 hit on you to start a combo in the corner (1 hit = hit by the FB ring = juggled into combo). In midscreen she has similar options but she can also air dash over you and land to go high or low or even air dash one way then come back and land on the same side again, going high or low (similar to Dizzy's oki options). If there's FB ring above your head on wake up you really have to watch for the mixup, I've not tested it but I don't know what the best thing to do in this situation is. Run-away Millia can be damn annoying as she's fast and has a double air dash, meaning you can be chasing her around the screen, depending on your opponent's style. Having said all this, simple combos can reap crazy damage on Millia. I even started a Lv 2 TR combo once with 2K and still managed to do around 170 damage! Lv3 Rock It or Lv 3 BRP combos will always produce good results and after the BRP you can dash j.HS j.D ... straight away from the wall bounce. Lv1 GB combos using dash 5S© feel a little tight because she's so light so I currently tend to use 5HS into the high jump. The basic corner throw (ending with Lv1 BRP) does around 1/3 of a bar and that's not even using extensions of the combo. Order-Sol's 5HS is supposed to be a majorly good move in this match up but I've not played it enough to go into details.

It's not quite the finished article yet, I may shift a few things around and move some things into part 2, I don't know yet. I will hopefully get the chance to work on it properly soon tho. I thought the Venom combo was quite a cool gimmick and something I had not seen before...the tech trap/gimmick is known from Slash but seen as tho he now has charge keep and you can combo from his air throw I put the two together. There must be countless other things you can do with charge keep if you put your mind to it I'm sure.

After some experimenting, I've been able to land 5S©, 5HS on normal hit off a Lv1 GB vs quite a few chars, I will have an updated list shortly. Also I'm compiling a list of who this will work on in the corner: (deep) Throw (wall stick) dash j.HS, j.D, dj.HS, j.D (land) 5S© HJC hj.S, j.HS, j.D, Lv1 236K I find it easier doing this than trying to land a dash 5S©.

I wouldn't say Fafnir is a good string "interupter" because I've been beaten out of it with opponent's pokes many times when using it (admitedly I may have been using it in the wrong situations but it still gets beaten out is my point). It's a great move for stemming pressure and it's also a great combo tool: If you're close enough on normal hit you can get solid damage and on CH it's half bar damage. A few HOS points I can think of... Positive: + Fast speed and good up-close normals. + Damage potential greatly increased from Slash (more damage from Lv1 GB combos, j.HS (CH) and Fafnir and can give half bar combos, corner throw combos do more damage, Lv3 moves lead to good damage combos etc...). + Faster charging, charge keep and the way charge drains (allowing you to use Lv3, then Lv2 moves in 1 combo) are all great improvements. You can save your Lv3 for something worthwhile and still get solid Lv1 GB combos in or Lv1 RIs or whatever. + Following on from the above point, Lv3 is now realistically an option in a match. + Charge Cancel opens up new options for him off normals. + Air throw is un-techable and thus can be combo'd from. + 5S(f) and 5HS (CC) are new viable anti-air options. + AC FRC window a lot easier to hit. + Dragon Install: Sakkai isn't just a gimmick anymore. Negative: - Can still be zoned out by characters with better range. - Short range on most of his normals. - Lv2 and Lv3 BHBs have been toned down and had their range shortened (this has been discussed in the HOS forum, Lv2 BHB is now used for a different purpose). - FRC point on BHB has been removed (see above point tho). - Lv2 BRP no longer gives guaranteed knockdown and free AC. - Some of his staple combos have become more difficult/more character specific. - Oki mixup game hasn't changed much since Slash, getting too predictable now? - 2S toned down a bit.

Since I'm so used to high jumps and JIs from using Order-Sol, when I first started to use Robo-Ky I was messing around with combos like: Throw FRC dash 5K JI 5S© HJC hj.S, dj.S, j.HS I'm too inconsistent at doing HJI (i.e. 5S© 929 into air combo) so I always prefer to JI between 2 moves. Thing is, the above combos is kind of pointless as it does a lot less damage than his other options. I'm not really sure where else you'd get JIs into combos or whether or not it'd be worth it anyway.

Actually yeah you're right, that was supposed to all combo but I think I capped it in a rush. I also forgot to put in 2D CC combos as well.

WUT: I actually found that out over the weekend too! Whilst playing casuals before a tournament here, I saw another HOS player who was going for that followup everytime. I think he was going for it regardless of whether or not the GB hit or CH and it was missing a large part of the time but it got me thinking whether or not it would work on some chars on normal hit which it obviously does as I'd tested it when I got home. I've recently come up with the 1st part of a guide I wanted to do for AC HOS, to help myself with things as much as others really. It starts off very basic but part 2 will be more combo-orientated. I would appreciate it if some of the members here would have a look at it and give their opinions on things. If stuff should be taken out or put in or whatever. You can't add comments to the vid as it's just a preview atm but I will take feedback on board then put up the finalised vid. Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjMImDmAR84 Cheers.

Well it's a cold hard fact RI has no invincibility and/or super armour anything like that, must be a weird hitbox thing.

Diveman: Lv3 BHB AC FRC dash into throw can be funny to throw out (they're still on fire when you grab them) but the damage scaling from doing this makes the combo not worth going for. Better to use the Lv3 for something else. Hatred Edge: Whilst not complete, the first post in this thread gives you all you need in order to start learning AC Order-Sol's combos imho. It's been compiled from various sources (mook, people's discussion here, match vids etc) and if you can pull off all that stuff then there isn't much more to him in terms of combos. At least that's what it seems right now. There aren't many OD combos but the thing is, if you look at all the combos you'll see that there isn't really much variations other than the initial few hits of whatever the combo is...e.g. Lv1 GB (CH) combos are pretty much the same as 2HS (CH) combos or Fafnir (CH) combos. You dash up and can do a midscreen/corner JI combo or a generic aircombo or aircombo into the corner into a corner combo (which itself is a standard combo from Slash usually). Combos starting with j.HS (CH), Fafnir and gatlings into Lv2 TR can be done with stuff like dash 2S, 5HS hj.IAD j.P, j.K, SV. Lv2/Lv3 RI and Lv3 BRP combos lead (at some point) into standard aircombos, as does Lv1 GB (in a slightly different way). So the setups and beginnings are different but the main substance of his combos is generally quite repetitive. reaver: I never said RI hit low profile and you didn't explain yourself clearly when you were talking about how RI can stop Anji's super. If you're saying RI hits Anji after he's landed then what I said above could still be true, Anji could have a larger vunerable hitbox around his lower body (which is what RI is hitting) or a small attacking hitbox on his feet which is what RI is beating. Or RI could be even be beating the hitbox of the "wind" that the super makes (if it has a hitbox) I don't know.

Yeah that's how I use it, the range on Lv3 steam is so great you can almost stand a full character distance away from someone and steam them on wakeup. If I'm already too far away to pressure on wakeup anyway (other side of the screen say) I just lay a mat and charge up.

Nothing really constructive to add, just wanted to say great work on the guide Dr Stormlocke!! Quick question about oki, is Lv2/3 Steam ever good to use as oki or is it something you'd not recommend?

I think this is just the case of Anji having a vunerable hitbox on the lower part of his body. I've seen Anji do this super and land on top of May's 3K and get CH!! lol In fact here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi4BVyyw5w8 The vid I made for a joke but the Anji thing is right at the very end. So either he has a miniscule hitbox on his lower body OR he has a vunerable hitbox there.

Yes that's true but kaqn was using the 5S© JI 5S(f) HJC hj.S... etc combo for quite a while in Slash which is why I considered it to be the "best" old Slash combo (i.e. it was the only one I went for barring some chars) and it also baits burst better than using 5S© JI 5HS. But I've not tried that other combo, thanks for mentioning it, I take it you're 939-ing off the 5S© alone?

For the characters it works against, in the corner 6P, 5S© JI 5HS HJC hj.HS, j.D, dj.HS, j.D, Lv1 236K works better than the old Slash combo (is more consistent) and does more damage too (191 on standard chars instead of 180 or something around there). Note that even tho HOS's 5S(f) now has a totally different animation, the old Slash 6P combo is still possible, just that the above one works better in my experience. I still need to work out everyone it works against tho. Hatred Edge I should have a vid in the mix within the next 2 weeks or so hopefully, then you might see how the timing is for the GB combo you're talking about.

Fenrir I posted the exact combo you're talking about right at the top of this page. If you look at the first post in this thread you'll see I'm trying to compile all his useful combos into one place, it's got quite a few notes on GB there. If you hit with a deep 5HS after a Lv1 GB you should still get a 2 hit SV...but it's best vs heavies, like Po (you wilI ALWAYS get a 2 hit SV on him because of his airborne hitbox). The Slash bnb GB combo can work but it's pointless to use as all other followups give greater damage and it's too hard hitting with a straight hj.S on most chars (because of reasons given by Unimportant Guy). 2 hit Lv1 SV is always better damage than Lv1 BRP at the end of a combo, but again if you're in the position where SV would only hit once, BRP is the better option. Also 5HS is only 1 hit now, maybe that's why it feels different to you. Lastly some chars (e.g. Sol) seemingly can't be caught with a dash 5S© after Lv1 GB, in which case you can go for the 5HS combos or a straight dash j.HS, j.D, dj.HS, j.D, Lv1 SV/BRP which now works off normal GB hit. If you're at Lv3 and with your back in the corner, you can do silly stuff like (Lv3) Lv1 214S+D dash j.HS, j.D, Lv3 623HS ... corner combo The corner combo can be a high jump one, jump install one, dash 5S© JC j.HS, j.D, dj.HS, j.D... etc just usual corner stuff.

In AC, HOS can have his Charge Burst flicked back too now. Also, as HOS's 6P has some form of projectile properties, it appears he can flick back 6P too. It's not listed in the AC mook and I've tried it myself in training a bit but couldn't get it to work but the cpu did it to me the other night lol

Cool, I didn't realise that. HOS's "realistic" combo options have really opened up now in AC.

Seen as tho HOS's charge system and overall damage output have been improved/increased significantly in AC, I don't think you really need to worry too much about scoring 200+ combos in a match. One thing I found useful vs Po is: Lv1 214S dash 5HS HJC hj.S, j.HS, j.D, Lv1 623HS i.e. using dash 5HS instead of 5S©. This combo gives the best damage possible vs him (149) without using a JI (I don't really go for 5HS/5S© HJI combos as I'm too inconsistent with them)...so it's like the best damage "easy" Lv1 GB combo...in fact it's only 1 pt less from the HJI combo! It also works vs a lot of other chars tho after some experimentation in some cases it's better going for other options. Another one from a corner throw: Throw (wall stick) j.HS, j.D, dj.HS, j.D (land) j.K, j.S, dj.HS, j,D (Lv1 236K) I've seen kaqn use this a few times vs Sol. The BRP on the end is optional but only ends on about 3 pts. Vs Sol off the top of my head it does 142 I think, vs Millia with the BRP does 167. Not too bad from a non-JI/HJI corner throw. It also works vs I-No and probably others but I've not looked into it extensively. You need to delay the dj.HS... part just right in order to get your j.K in.

If you consult the table mirror matchups are excluded, probably because they come down to solely how well a player can use their character's strengths as opposed to what advantages a character has on paper to deal with another character. If you were to play kaqn, the mirror matchup would NOT be 5-5 :P

So yeah, time for a new matchup thread. A copy and paste from the other thread: Before putting up any major matchup discussions, a re-post from this: http://kayin.pyoko.org/GuiltyGear/actiers.html In other words, in Accent Core, Order-Sol's matchups look something like this: FAVOURABLE MATCHUPS vs Sol: 5.5 - 4.5 vs Millia: 6.0 - 4.0 vs Chipp: 6.0 - 4.0 vs Jam: 5.5 - 4.5 vs Anji : 6.0 - 4.0 vs Dizzy: 5.5 - 4.5 vs I-No: 6.0 - 4.0 vs Bridget: 5.5 - 4.5 vs Robo-Ky: 5.5 - 4.5 BAD MATCHUPS vs Faust: 4.5 - 5.5 vs Testament: 4.5 - 5.5 vs Zappa: 4.5 - 5.5 vs A.B.A.: 4.5 - 5.5 All other matchups are considered 5 - 5 (with the mirror matchup excluded). Admitedly this is a few months old now but it's still useful to consult for the time being I think. Even with all his improvements Testament and Faust still remain difficult for Order-Sol...especially the way Testament is in AC.