TheArm05

j.A > j.B > 5B > 5CC > dash 5B > 6A > 236A+8D > 6A > BBL > 236A > 236A+8D > BBL = 3570 damage It is also crazy difficult to get the second 236A inbetween the two BBLs since as soon as they hit they will tech almost instantly from same move prorate. Basically he keeps winding them higher and higher so that the 236As don't hit or hit super delayed. When I got it the last 236A hit at exactly the same time as the BBL hit so the dummy didn't have time to tech. BTW replacing the 236A + 8D at the end with 6A makes this combo a breeze and it still does 3473.

It is all about design vs execution in these two instances. XF3 was designed to stop the snowball effect that happened in mvc2 and was a decent concept that was horrendously executed. You can be sure Capcom didn't intend Vergil to be able to steamroll entire teams effortlessly. New Liz seems to be designed around massive comebacks even more so than current Liz. Hugely buffed diarahan + powered specials + mind charge + lowered normal mode damage. To me this is promoting a style that I am sure will frustrate the shit out of my opponents. I may be blowing this out of proportion though since we did receive quite a lot of buffs in general along with the damage nerfs. We will see with the next loketest.

Odd that they would buff diarahan so much. It just seems like it is promoting a relatively unfun mechanic to play against. I know it would be frustrating to get someone to <50% then they hit you with something random and now you have to deal with ~6000 awakening life AND they do more damage. Whatever I will take any buffs they are going to give me. The projectile invuln on diarahan is amazing and a great change imo. I haven't heard any changes to the poison status effect. If it still does the same damage poison combos might end up being the new staple high damage combos since Garu loops are gone.

This is why these changes are a MASSIVE buff. My(everyones?) biggest problem with Liz was the lack of options I had against actually good players who don't fall for dumb shit. We have much more counterplay to characters mashing/airdashing out of our pressure now. Liz games are going to be her going for one hit and comboing into awakening + diarahan. Then doing extended combos with the upgraded specials. The new Awakening Garudyne looks so simple to combo in/out of. I am curious to know if 2B > jC > C/DGaru > 2A works in awakening now. Randomizer sounds like garbage to me and I am skeptical about the uses of the R-Action feint but everything is just speculation at this point.

Can't wait to see the full changelist. Honestly I just hope we get to keep Ghastly Wail combos. That shit is too cool. 6 Persona cards is a double edged sword though since if we do lose Thanatos with 6 cards he is probably not coming back before you die. As far as some of these changes being nerfs goes. I hear a lot of the characters are getting nerfed pretty hard. I would gladly sacrifice Liz's high end damage for some more consistency in her normals or actual mixup. Although I may be pushing it. Watched the video Elochai posted. Does it seem like they sped up Liz's auto meter gain a bit to anyone else? Also anyone know what that shiny sword that appears next to the SPup icon when she Mindcharges in the combo/thanatos 5Cs is?

You can bait bursts real easily while doing the 5D fc 2B combo too. Also for burst baits with 5C you can reaction 2C the first hit of 5C and 2C will own their burst. If you do a 5C in the corner and are guaranteed to kill off the combo you can always just OMC the 5C and hold back while thanatos attacks and then just continue the combo normally if they don't burst. It is a really good OS as Liz has extra meter a lot. Best place to burst in liz combos is during garudyne by far. You have to call the burst out with a OMC pretty hard and if they don't burst you look real dumb.

Hey man 236C has its use. Namely when you are sub 25 meter, have a burst when your opponent doesn't, and feel like (need) 5k off of a random grounded confirm. 5B > 2AB > 236C > OMB > 2AB > 236D > 2A > 5B > 2AB > 236D > 2A > 5B > 5C > 2C > 214B > 214B > j.C I opened a round in a Liz mirror match this way today. Pretty funny to take 80% life off the first hit in the round.

We have a scene in SFla. We haven't played much since NEC but with Final Round coming up relatively soon I am sure we will start playing again. We usually meet on Mondays at Zero Ping Lan Center if you can make it out there. DC is a South Florida player/troll/commentator that you will probably meet if you come out to ZP

I've been ending my combos with 2C -> C.Agi for a while, even when I know the 2C will yellow beat. It is really good because nobody air techs against Liz (If they do just use a j.D/2B reset and that will end real fast). Also even if they do call it out and air tech it just makes the 2C hit meaty which if timed right can make 2C + frames iirc. Honestly corner C.Agi ender is one of the few legitimate oki options availible to Liz that everybody has to respect so it is always a safe and good ender to your combo. I need to start playing this game again so I don't suck at FR >.<

2B jC D.Garu never works since D.Garu starts up too slow. C.Garu works but you can't combo unless you OMB/OMC. The normal route is to just use SB.Garu to combo off of 2B jC. Also you should be using 2B like it is going out of style. It is your best move. Yosuke can OMC his kunais to make them safe from Liz IK. I don't think there is anything that can't be safe to Liz IK with OMC although some moves you have to OMC real fast since they hit so rapidly. Oh the tech Zomb was talking about is making the combo pathway 5C > 2C > B.Bufu > stuff burst safe. Normally if they know the matchup they will burst during the start of B.Bufu since Liz has so much recovery she can't punish the burst. However if you use SB.Bufu the armor from SB.Bufu eats the burst and resets the combo (for a pretty mean fatal counter combo). If you are going for the kill and have extra meter to spend or you notice they like bursting B.Bufu this is some good tech to use. Be careful though because Thanatos doesn't take the step forward that he does with B.Bufu so it can whiff if spaced wrong.

Yeah I got random God Handed out of the tournament in the last round with a huge life lead sitting on a burst. I had a good time at the tournament though. Got to play most of the top players I wanted to and for the most part I was able to fight them pretty well (except for Souji...holy shit). Liz is just such an unforgiving character both on offense and defense. I lose so many rounds because I drop huge damage combos or don't hitconfirm correctly.

Yeah it's a bunch of A.Bufus lol. You can do it off of any fatal but it gets REAL awkward after three for me and I drop it. I can't even get close to the 6.

2B Garu combo you are talking about is 2B > (j.B) > j.C > SB.Garu (9) > D.Garu (2) > sweep > D.Garu (9~2) > 2A > 5B > 5C > 2C > B.Bufu > B.Bufu > j.C You can omit the sweep D.Garu part for an easier combo for a loss of like 800ish dmg. The full combo is a little over 5k and can be ended however you want. As far as I know there isn't any way to go into garu combos off of 2B without SB.Garu or a OMB

New Garu loop is definitely easier but uh... it needs to be Fatal Counter as far as I can tell (I have been able to reproduce the combo vid combos and all of them drop immediately when not FC). It is nice to know and off some setups it is practical but for the most part the old Garu combo seem like they will still be best. Tried out the SB.Agi -> OMC -> C.Agi -> Roll setup in casuals today and it seems legit hard to block because it is super ambiguous. The only problem with the setup isn't the mixup its getting people to block SB.Agi... I attempted the Fatal Counter R-Action corner setup once but it didn't work so I am not sure how good that setup is yet. It does look cool at least lol.

If I am playing casuals I almost always go for triple Garu. I still drop it a decent amount but I can hit it on all the characters. On the easy characters I always go for the max reps. If I'm in a tourney against the harder chars I'll just do double garu unless I'm feeling myself lol. D.Garu (9~2) works on everyone btw it just has stricter timing on some than others.

@the505 Watched the match. You did pretty well. One of the biggest things I saw was when you would hit non CH 5C you would go into 2C and he would block and take a free card every time. You need to confirm that into j.C it lets you get better positioning and it is free damage. This works on 5C anti airs that are too far to confirm into 2C as well (like in the first round) In your pressure when you had him in the corner you threw 5B a lot. If he had wanted to he could have done the slide and hit you with a huge combo. 5B is super risky in this MU. Also be careful with the SB.Maragidynes as Narukami can Ziodyne on reaction. You seemed to be a little scared of him at times. You kept backing into the corner even when you had the advantage. Also why didn't you ever burst? That 2C fatal combo I would have insta burst.

Yeah I had the whole "how do I break down back" emo phase as well. Recently I have been having a lot of success with 2D to break down back. Either end a combo with it or sneak it in when they are in the corner. If they are poisoned then them downbacking is juuuust fine. Also 2D has some crazy fast recovery. If you 2D and they try to jump in on you in reaction you can 2B them for free. It is really just about getting in their head. Once they are afraid of you they will start pressing buttons and eating 5C/2C again. Stick with her you know she is too much fun to drop

Seriously fuck Liz mirror matches. I have close matches with Liz players that then go off and get smashed by other people I beat consistently. You know it is bad when I considered counterpicking with Mitsuru at the last tournament I went to >.< (I didn't...and I lost the mirror)

We don't take kindly to your kind around these parts DC

Akihiko Maziodyne actually has too much invuln to get hit by Liz IK. For Labrys you can add the awakening gear super. Thats free IK there. Yukiko you can IK her if she goes for a 5C > 2C blockstring in between.

If Yukiko tries to wakeup/reversal with any of her supers you can mash R-Action or Ghastly Wail for a free counter hit on her. It really shuts down her wakeup game pretty hard. I don't really see how Yukiko beats Liz at all. Liz is hard for Yukiko to deal with at neutral as A.Zio OMC is like a free get-in or a free combo if you get the wall stick. Sure if Yukiko gets in on you it is REAL hard to get her off but that is no different than most of Liz's other matchups anyway. A or SB.Zio -> OMC (hold 6) is real awesome btw guys. The distance you can get a wallstick with this is crazy (esp off of SB.Zio) and it leads to tons of damage. It is good against the characters that like to press buttons full screen like Aigis, Yukiko, or Naoto. It is still dangerous on whiff but it is a strong tool nonetheless.

This so hard. There are so many times against good players I feel there is no way for me to ever open them up with Liz and I am lost on what to do. Then I happen to land a random 2B/5C and training mode my way to winning the round. However in most of the matchups in the game I don't feel at a disadvantage. I feel like she beats Kanji, Naoto and Yukiko. She loses to Mitsuru, Slab and Aigis and goes even or close to even with the rest. That's my personal opinion though idk. I'm curious what everyone else thinks too. That being said it is real easy to get blown up by Kanji or wreck a Slab/Mitsuru but thats just the nature of the character.

Played a bit against a good Aigis today and I have to say this matchup can be pretty rough. Her offense and pressure accentuate Elizabeth's lack of defensive options and she can end the match in 2 hits no problem. Her 2B is fucking godlike and you can't challenge that move with anything other than Garudyne from the air. If you can call out a 2B with Garudyne and land the full 6k combo the Aigis will be scared to just throw out 2B all day. 5C is strong against her since her air movement is usually so low with orgia forward/backward dash however if it is mistimed you can eat a j.B to the face. Liz 5B got me killed A LOT try not to use it too often. Dont throw SB.Agi ever if she has meter as you will eat a counterhit super everytime Also her j.C is pretty good and if she confirms it into megido you are losing a TON of life. You have to give a lot of respect to it. I feel like I have covered a lot of the major points of the matchup. Anyone else know of any tips/tricks/things to avoid against her? I feel like this matchup isn't too bad when it is all said and done.

Are you using D.Ghastly Wail? Can only combo off of Ghastly Wail midscreen with the D version. When using the D.Ghastly Wail you have to do a short dash into instant air dash j.B. It is really hard too so you kind of have to just grind it out...

Yeah sorry to clarify wakeup mind charge isn't going to do anything against Chie or Yu or other pressure that hits super meaty however it does have invuln starting frame 4(It is 3+3 iirc 3 frames vulnerable 3 invuln). Against a lot of characters moves once the Mind Charge super flash is up they are fucked and you get a free combo. As Liz one combo could easily = the round so thats why it is so godlike. To the person above I would label Liz's F-Action under worthless also (unless you are going to get a CH). Against anyone who knows the matchup that shit never works and it gives them a free combo or at best they tech it and you are back neutral. I don't even use it anymore. 2B is a much better button to mash if you want to try and mash out of pressure >.>