ChrisX

Relius always strikes me as "Fucked up, but STILL could be loyal to the Imperator". I mean, compare him to Terumi who even BADMOUTHS the Imperator. Relius even had to reprimand him to stop acting like that for the Imperator. He probably does have loyalty to the Imperator, and probably would do all he could to serve her. Either that, or he's a very good brown-noser for the Imperator. Maybe his mind is like "Oh **** you, Imperator. Once you're on a weak spot, I'll make you my guinea pig." Or perhaps he's too scared that if he gets a bit too rough like Terumi, he gets his ass fired.

I'll have to object against that. Litchi pretty much saw NOL since CT as a 'neutral police force'. A bit harsh, but tolerable. As seen in her CT Story, she has no qualms of handing Ragna or Bang over to NOL (for Ragna, under the excuse that she has to protect Orient Town from a 'criminal' like him, though she probably thought of taking the Azure for herself, and Bang... because he harrassed her one too many) The only figures she feels uneasy about in NOL are Hazama and Relius (After seeing him attempt to murder Carl). But... two people don't make up the whole NOL, right? Unless she's put below their wings on joining. But overall, I don't think Litchi thinks that the whole NOL is bad, two completely horrible monsters doesn't make the whole organization.

Yes, but he's going to be prepared with an excuse if someone calls him out for it. For example, if Litchi found out about this, Relius can use those reasons to make her shut up, if she still cares of the people of Orient Town ("Look, if I leave this thing alone, he'll consume the Kaka Clan, and the people of Orient Town. You want that to happen? That is, if you care at all."). I know he's not going to use "Do our orders or he dies" until the very last moment. It's probably his final trump card, and you know trump cards are meant to be hidden until the very end. Speaking of her, I keep hearing that in the True End, she had a sad face. But... what's Litchi being sad about? 1. Because nobody cares about her? 2. Because she found out that she is in for bad things she is against? (But she'll have to endure) 3. Because she realized that she's allying herself with REALLY horrible monsters? (But she'll have to endure) 4. Because she realized that NOL might not be as 'good' as she thinks? (But she'll have to endure) Which one is the more likely case?

It just crossed me this, but this theory might be a little TOO crazy. We know Relius captured Arakune, and suspects it's to put a leverage to Litchi... and he hasn't said anything about it. But... there's ONE good thing that came with it: Usually, Litchi (or Tao) was the one to keep him busy from not eating. As of now, Litchi and Taokaka are away from Kagutsuchi, and even if there is Torakaka, he probably thinks it's not enough. So, his purpose to capture Arakune was for these two: 1. They can take care of Arakune and the cure in mobile, since they're going to Ikaruga, they can't afford to move back and forth to Kagutsuchi. 2. He's trying to make NOL look good. By snatching away a predator, he prevented Arakune from having an unrestrained eating spree. If he consumed the whole Kagutsuchi, when NOL is done with their business in Ikaruga, there's nobody in their main base of Kagutsuchi... and they REALLY can't rule a world without people to be ruled at! I think as much as Relius is a horrible SOB, he's does know how to keep NOL's image, or doing something good for the people... Maybe? I must be mad.

Maybe Relius thinks "Ignis is getting lonely. I should make a friend for of her." And then, he picks Arakune for the candidate.

Hm, there's something disturbing that got into my mind. A lot believed that Relius uses Arakune as a leverage to Litchi. But I always thought that there is another purpose, and it makes sense. Look at it: Everyone will be going to Ikaruga. And if not left like that, Arakune will probably be stuck in Kagutsuchi, and the NOL would look like they're totally lying if they promised Litchi that they have the cure and will help in curing him. So probably, Relius just caught Arakune so they can take him to Ikaruga and make their deal look sensible, rather than hostage situation. Probably they will use the hostage situation, but rather than doing it for the lulz, NOL might have done it out of necessity. Something like this: "Look, you want him to be cured, we have to put him in here, if he's not here, how are we going to cure him? Be thankful, okay?" P.S: Okay, that's enough of it. Anyone who wants to complain about how I derailed the topic, just take it to PM with me! I know this and the Storyline Question topic was once one and it got split. Hopefully, there won't be any splits thanks to this. (Or alternatively, someone should make a debate topic, though I don't know if it's a good way)

It just occured me this... We know how Ada is like when she's alive according to Carl. But... what about Ignis? I would surmise that when she turned into Relius' puppet, Carl is probably an infant thus doesn't remember much... What if what he remembered about Ignis turns out to be WRONG and Ignis might be revealed to be just as bad as Relius? @smooshy: I thought it's established that I'm not triggering all that because "OMG SHES TRYING TO MAKE HERSELF SIGNIFICANT! STAY INSIGNIFICANT!". But more like, "I THOUGHT YOU'RE A GOOD GUY!?". But then again, that kind of debate should've stopped.

I'm more picturing him to have a face of "Irresistable Arakune", taken to a more 'realistic' approach. @harmless kitten & Foxy: Hm, I should be able to do it since I still liked Jin and mained him when he's still full on psycho NII-SAAAAAN mode in CT. Plus with other example of Fate/stay night, she MAY be considered good. So... yeah. Let's hope I'm still able to finish the CS True Story and look at her with a straight face, and listen to her saying all those nice things without thinking that it's a lie. Moving on. (Off topic, no need to reply on this one) In other news, I NO LONGER NEED TO USE PROXY SITES TO ACCESS THIS SITE! Yay.

I suppose it should stop. I'm sorry that I brought this whole morality chain discussion because of my inability to decide whether it's right or not to root for Litchi after what she did.

Can you blame Rachel, though? Rachel is designated as an Observer. She can influence people, but she is not allowed to take direct action. If she wanted to help people, and she's not an Observer, I'm pretty sure that everything will be over in a flash.

... By the way, how GRAY Bang was? He was through and through a good guy who fights for justice, albeit stupid. Makoto shows concern only for her friends in NOL, and realizes that NOL has gone corrupt. She had enough common sense to leave that pit of evil, and goes to the 'lesser evil' Sector Seven. That... sounds good enough for me. @smoosh: Really? One thing I note is that "Good is Good" and "Evil is Despicable"... Or maybe I'm too much a black and white person. @Foxy: As I said, Bang and Tao wouldn't want to save Litchi in instant, if she NEVER TELLS HER FRIGGING PROBLEM ALREADY. She could learn well to know about 'Moral Support'. Tager might care, but he'll be too bound to Kokonoe. Kokonoe only showed care in Litchi's alt ending because she knows for sure that Litchi completely gave up on Arakune (by killing him). At this rate, Kokonoe might still get pissed and she might go along with killing her anyway, because she's a naughty traitor of Sector Seven. By the way, Kokonoe is not the Saya of Sector Seven.

As mAc Chaos said, Makoto is a good example of Good. But while the dark side is not made of completely evil people, NOL is pretty much the least organization you'd want to root for. Reason? Terumi and Relius. @Foxy: You see? I've wanted to root for Litchi. But in this situation, rooting for her means rooting for NOL, meaning I root for those two Complete Monsters, and I... REALLY don't want to.

Bang isn't that horrible, though. Unless you think over-the-top obnoxious things are horrible things. Litchi was pretty close as well to not-horrible, but NOOOO she decided to just join in the cart of 'horrible' and make herself not stand out. *sigh* Oh, and Tao isn't really that horrible, if you count the fact that she just lacks the brain to be horrible. Since the sequel would take place for quite the short time after CS, I don't think we'll ever see Linhua, especially since both Litchi and Tager's story reveal that she has ZERO fighting capability, wouldn't make sense if she's suddenly Instant Expert. I see that quack doctor Han to have more chance than Linhua to represent Orient Town after Litchi is gone, but even his chance is VERY low. And as I said many times... we have NO proofs about what Litchi thinks, other than "It's just a normal police department." Nor proofs about her realizing "Oh my God, it's a horrible organization. But I've gone too far..." Therefore, her morality is in question.

I don't think CT Gag Reels count as canon, and she's probably the least on Noel's term of 'want to save'. She'll prioritize Tsubaki first. Also, Litchi's problem is because she never told anyone about her problem, and the ones that knew her problems has refused to help, and at this point, pretty much would want her dead. If Tao, Bang and Carl knew the problem, I'm sure they'd like to help. But as of now, they don't know, thus they wouldn't care. Though since Tao is with Ragna, if Tao ever learns that, she might try to convince Ragna to go easy on her.

It's not as much as Litchi hate, it's more of someone who's confused on which side of morality is she on ultimately, whether she deserves to be rooted for or we should just deem her completely fallen and no longer deserve to be pitied. Also, she's a SCIENTIST before she's a doctor... It's easy to say that when she is formerly a good, kind helper at first, but then suddenly took the antagonist side, one that contains more Complete Monsters. It's kinda hard to see her as a good person when she actively took the darkest of side, the side that we're supposed not to root. (And yes, I do say that because whichever organization that held Terumi (and/or Relius) will be the worse case of evil. If Terumi/Relius say 'Screw NOL, I'm joining Sector Seven', then Sector Seven becomes the worse evil. Bottom line is aligning yourself with the side that has Terumi is a good way to be called 'evil'). We're also discussing of what future bad things she'll do judging from the situation. (Though nobody seemed to believe that she will hate Sector Seven) Also, Rachel wasn't quite satisfied watching things go to hell. She's trying to change things, but unable to due to her role as observer. Or at least that's what I think about her.

Again, I'll have to make an argument in this. Kokonoe may be... nasty. But as nasty as she gets, she's not a villain because she's technically backing Ragna, the hero of the story. The villain in this story is obviously Terumi, and while this setting is pretty gray, Terumi is PURE BLACK. Anyone who opposes him is instantly the good guy. Even nasty people like Kokonoe. Or Jin.

Well it... kinda matters. If it's true, it means, she's pretty much as manipulative as Terumi, "Only give when it's beneficial, and when it proves useless, throw it away." And as I said before, I did re-read her story in CT. Did I miss something from my observation? Hm... playing Street Fighter too much will do that for ya. Jubei is probably a bit like Akuma. Powerful, agile, but... LOW DEFENSE.

Though the element of surprise do play a factor. If Jubei sensed nostalgic things in Phantom (the rumors about Nine's soul being there), it's always a chance to strike him unprepared, and beat him down like that. Also, 'Strongest' can mean... in the terms of TV Tropes... 'Glass Cannon'. Jubei is strong and probably very agile as well, but he probably takes hit like a girl. Nobody ever told you how TOUGH he was, right? Especially with stature like that...

I didn't say 'Goddess', I said 'GOODNESS'... Though I agree that with lots of her kindness, I thought she was a good example of goodness. I wasn't expecting her to be perfect anyway, but she just... struck me on the worst spot possible. The reveal that she is possibly amoral. And again, as said many times, what are the assurances that all her good and kind deeds she did was not a lie? Considering how she really did all that, we have no insurances that she's not lying when she's doing good. All I fear is that all her good things were revealed to be: "Oh, all that good acts? It's all lies." Say what you will, but SD makes valid points, and we have no proof about her genuineness as of now. And I also have a theory that she will completely fall off to the deep end, unable to keep her morals (if she has any at all) by joining NOL. Sector Seven will probably hunt her down as a traitor now, Kokonoe refused to help her, what more reasons for her to grow to hate them because they're not helping her at all? If she truly is that much selfish, such thing will happen, right? (Hopefully, this isn't going so much as overboard. Since I'm having a hard time accepting that she will be viewed as an antagonist from now on, and rather unsympathetic at that. I know I'm not going to like considering her a bad guy. Even if her stance is like this, I wanted to believe that she is still a good person, but when the facts say otherwise... (as if, at first I thought she is comparable to Sophitia in Soul Calibur, but this one reveals that she's more like Ivy)) *Madness Mantra begin* FateStayNightHeavensFeelFateStayNightHeavensFeelFateStayNightHeavensFeelFateStayNightHeavensFeelFateStayNightHeavensFeelFateStayNightHeavensFeelFateStayNightHeavensFeelFateStayNightHeavensFeelFateStayNightHeavensFeelFateStayNightHeavensFeel.... *Madness Mantra end*

Bless you, then, for not going overboard like I did. Last time I did go overboard with other character from another series and the result wasn't pretty, the whole fandom avoids liking the character I went overboard with, just so they avoid associating with a silly fanboy like me. I'm nearly repeating the same thing here. Still, I guess it is kind of a bad habit for me to be such an information hound when it comes to my favorite. And part of that comes from me looking at Litchi the wrong way, rather than looking at her as a 'lover', I'm looking at her as a figure of 'goodness', so of course I was disappointed at that, because I thought joining NOL no matter what reasons cemented you as 'bad'. Right now I'm still confused on her eventual alignment: Is she good or is she neutral? But... well I won't force you to answer. If there's no answer, I'd still consider it good, because I've seen another guy who'll "Endanger the world to be destroyed in order to save a beloved", and it's still considered 'Good'. Again, apologies for these... overboard treatment. I knew I should draw the line somewhere, but curiosity is a great adversary.

.... Okay, that's the line, I should stop at that alignment wondering silliness. Thank you, SD. (Yes to be honest, I'm that kind of silly fanboy that once a whole fandom turned against me, hating that one character so they'd avoid association with me. I hope that's not the case with this and Litchi. So I have to know where to stop, and now is the time. Anyone who received PMs about me buggering about her alignment, IGNORE that PM, toss it to a trash can. Geez, why do I always have a realization after (not before) I realized I did something stupid?) I just realized that I sat through Fate/stay night VN, and know the decision that Shirou made in Heaven's Feel still makes him... good, and he's pretty much doing the same thing Litchi did: Endanger the world to save a beloved! I sat through F/SN, faced that decision, still consider it good, and I couldn't repeat the same in BB? All right, that's it. No more wondering. She's still good, just that it's getting a bit Chaotic. And I could tolerate shifts between Law and Chaos better. Still... development, SD? I don't think Litchi has developed. Extra details have been revealed, yes, but this has yet to be a character development. Litchi is still the same "I have to save Arakune at all cost". It's kinda different when you compare with Bang going from "I hate Jin" into "All right, I will tolerate Jin." Or Carl with "ADULTS ARE EVILLL!!!" to "Okay, I suppose not all adults are bad...". Litchi's character remains the same, which was why she made that decision. Whew! That was close...

Okay, as suggested before, if I still feel betrayed, I should replay Litchi's CT story again. Thankfully, there's a Story FAQ in GameFAQS. So I could use that... Well what I get is this: Litchi seems dead set on finding Arakune, this is one fact I know. However, along the way, she made a good impression to the people of Orient Town, and even Ronin Gai. She doesn't think that badly towards NOL even when she's being a citizen. And according to Tager's story, she's already in danger of court-marshal for merely leaving. All she's doing is because Arakune's condition is her responsibility and she's not running away from it, even if her humanity may get sacrificed. However, it is also mentioned that she really likes Orient Town. She also stated that Orient Town is her new home and there are people who needed her there; as well as her stating to Linhua that she's happy being in Orient Town. Her plan is once she finishes her objective, she goes back there. Now, wind back to what she's doing and... these feel like a HUGE LIE, don't they? This is like, "Screw you all. I'm not coming back." As many said, actions speak louder than words. Even if Litchi says she likes Orient Town, she feels needed there, her joining NOL, even if it's for her mission, was like a huge stab on the back. This seems to prove that Litchi completely doesn't care about the town and every of her kindness seems to be just a lie so she can move around freely. Or was I missing something from my observation? Or perhaps I shouldn't have looked at her as some sort of "Morality character example"? (And just so we're clear, I still like her, though I do feel a little betrayed on what she is doing. So I came to a conclusion that perhaps I've been looking at her the wrong way)

Uh... where is it said that BB was formerly said to be developed as an RPG?

Um, if we go by that, then it's like saying GGX is GG1.5, then GGXX is GG1.75, then GGXX Accent Core is GG1.875, since the 'True Sequel' of GG is Overture. Or so I heard... It also came to me that... despite what Mori said, Bang is still technically more powerful than Carl as of current, and Carl recognizes it. What Mori was implying was that Carl has the greatest raw power amongst the vigilantes. There are two problems in him though: Control and experience. He's a bit unstable and due to that, I think he couldn't grasp the full extent of his vast power and potential. Given time, however, he will surpass Bang. As said, Bang has more experience and control over his normal strength, but without realizing and mastering the Phoenix Rettenjou, I will agree that he will get surpassed by Carl eventually. And even if he can master his Nox, we're not sure the extent of its power, whether it lets him surpass Carl or not. But then again, it's a pretty common story of 'student surpassing master', and since Bang treats Carl like a student, he'll be more than likely to let Carl surpass him.

I won't expect her to be forgiven at the beginning of the next game (hell, I sure as hell won't forgive her that easily for betraying my trust on her! I guess everyone else is losing trust like I did, so much that they want her unforgiven and dead). But then, there's this rumor that this will be a trilogy, which means next game may be the last in the arc. I see that several who does trust her will forgive her after she starts telling her situation (but the question is... would she EVER tell?)... but Sector Seven wouldn't be as forgiving and maybe assigns Kokonoe and Tager to personally execute her. That's how I see it goes in the first moments of the third game. Also, I could easily see Litchi developing some hatred to Kokonoe for refusing her and putting her in that situation. You know, Terumi can ALWAYS goad her to think like that.