bakahyl

I don't think so, because canceling into jump or airdash are considered the same for most other things

I mean raw steins plus running away as your main tactic in neutral. due to their probably slower startup of lasers and the loss of jump cancel on air steins, people will have less reason to respect it Like Ragna players will simply inferno divider you out of any aerial stein sets, because the only thing that you can do after that are aerial c normals or specials like her dp (heck..Mu's aerial dp will lose to Ragna's ground dp because the aerial dp has less invul/gp )

More emphasis at rushdown and footsies, seeing that her stein game at neutral is thrown out of the window

Agreeing with TD, because Mu didn't have the tools to compete with other characters in cs1. Although pulsr did discover some stein oki's and techs with her (a video that i watched when i started out with Mu) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyyoX47NQk4 Her neutral got better due to her c normals being slower and had more recoery, seeing that even one of her buffs was that 2b and 2c was actually connecting. Also her c normals were made safer with the inclusion of a jump cancelable 3c and faster stein cancels I felt that Mu's old j.2c from cs1 hindered her corner oki and most of the time the opponent could roll out, but it could be my inexperience back then edit old list of her changes (lol) http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/2563-cs2-mu-12-cs2-changes-discussion/ edit 2: the system buff of making every b and c normals air unblockable for normal airblocking buffed her c normals alot at catching chicken blockers

They probably wanted to make lambda the more rushdown orientated zoner instead of Mu, because well.. they had to make Nu and lambda somewhat different Heck no.. CSE had strong zoning in the form of lower recovery totsuka and habaya , high corner damage, superior oki's and setups https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OkF9XP32vg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02PH_9_DMq8 IMO CSE and CS2 Mu are the strongest versions of Mu The only things that CP mu was better at , was more consistent midscreen damage and better corner carry

Steins used to be special cancelable and i haven't seen any report that you can't. So i am sure you can frametrap people who want to mash by cancelling it into specials edit: you can still cancel steins into specials, shown in the OD combo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K5YPFnC_80&t=54s Also you don't want to cancel steins all the time to make it less predictable seeing that things such as 6b 6c or 6b into delayed 5c can be frametraps

1. or you can stein cancel 6b(1) which also has 18f blockstun, which also gives you the option to go for any c normals including 5c (or 3c for the half assed slow low mixup because 6b(2) hits high). Or you can just use the old jump cancel for additional mixup possibilites 2. ikutachi has a wierd arc and it will go less far as before and it apparently can whiff more easily. So you can't throw it out blindly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyWicKZn36c&t=5m53s However you can use it safely as a mixup when you are closer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnS0_kfLMnA&t=7m21s

This needs it's own post but i forgot about Maguro and he has made an entire page about the new Mu changes. Funny changes being Mu's j,2c now has 14f startup and 5f landing recovery (lol) 6b(1) is now 16f and 6b(2) occurs after 6f. Meaning that the animation is sped up but Mu's overhead is still 22f. Ikutachi is apparently even on block http://page.mixi.jp/view_page.pl?page_id=303690 The most intersting being the changes http://page.mixi.jp/run_page_apps.pl?page_id=303690&module_id=1722343&from=menu and proration http://page.mixi.jp/run_page_apps.pl?page_id=303690&module_id=1722332&from=menu Also Mu's combo rating was dropped from 80 to 70 Plus various combos and more

So? i wasn't argueing that it needed to be changed but it was nerfed 4 ways 1. no issues with me 2. you can't claim that for sure seeing that we don't have our hands on the new stein startup. Seeing that Mu loses more oki's after each version, i am not even inclined to believe that. Also Mu can already use her current steins for safer pressure and mixups as well. Just look at the video that pochedp made for CP 1.0 Mu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnUui0h5QZc it only opens up new combo routes because it replaces our old combo routes.I won't call that a buff. That's like saying that the new Tsubaki changes are a buff, while most of them are just changes to her combos in between edit: Her steins lasers have around 25+ frames more startup 3. Complaining? I seriously doubted that people actually complained about that aspect of Mu in competitive play. Netplay, yes. But tournament level , heck no. Her running away with steins was inferior to other characters who can do the same like Rachel or Litchi because the reward on stein lasers are so poor. It's just that the "shooting mode" with 4 steins on the field at the same time was stupid Seeing that you once played Valk, I am more inclined to say that your main problem was MU experience vs Mu if you claim to say that 4. uhm no. because j.2c has a minimum range in cp, since it can whiff when used too low because j.2c was changed by not having a float as well. whiff cancelling j.d into j.2c works if you are higher but i won't call the stein an oki, because Mu will hit the ground next the opponent at roughly the same time and it will still take a long time before the laser fires. Her new j.2c however, looks really good I don't know what your issue was with Totsuka, but it got better (not as good as CSE version). So placing 1 or 2 steins and totsuka should still be child's play

While i never said that the laser fort was not dumb and needed a change, but they might have overnerfed that a bit too much Maybe you aren't aware but there are 4 fundamental changes/nerfs that made to make the old laser fort tactic less or no longer viable 1. less range 2. slower startup of the laser after set 3. no jump cancel (meaning no airdash or double jump) after air stein set. She has gained the ability to c normal cancel air steins but that's more a buff towards her close range and a nerf to her ability to run away with steins 4. less or almost no float when setting steins in the air. meaning she will drop to the ground faster

The lasers hits more and thus it does more damage....... kind of lame It's visually not as fancy as other OD supers but atleast it's buffed. In fact it's similar to Jin's OD ice arrows DD, because that move also looks exactly the same but does more damage because it hits more

Define reckless because when i was watching matches like these https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6oXS4CMB_c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnyoVq9aW24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX9fvA--qAE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK0JtvwVN_E None of the litchi players had any qualms about throwing away the staff since it was mostly a fire and forget type of attack with the intend to approach without too many consequences Since you were comparing litchi staff with Mu's steins, which seriously aggrevates me ,because those 2 tools are not that similar because Mu's steins is more delayed because of the longer startup than litchi's staff but Mu has the advantage quantity was. imo placing and throwing out Litchi's staff still has less risks than Mu throwing out random steins or Rachel summoning pumpkin I never liked that matchup in any version because it felt to me that Litchi has an easier time disrupting Mu's setup than Mu was able to disrupt Litchi's Also I forgot to thank you for your cp 1.0 and 1.1 midscreen setup of 6c 5d habaya working against litchi, because Itsuu loses to the meaty habaya because it has no startup invul and habaya somehow manages to beat Litchi's projectile dp by overpowering it with a higher projectile durability

Oh... i never noticed that someone made a video of mu's changes in cp2 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24955549

Their range was reduced by like a half. You can still place 2d and 6d to hit people who are at fullscreen away from you but the opponent can simply approach and force you blocking with the stein's increased startup before they fire a laser and their reduced range IMO they suck as approach tool but are your main source of the new 2c juggling combo's to keep the opponent up and probably look like that they can be used as oki's after a corner combo knockdown https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K5YPFnC_80

No idea where you got that idea, since all the litchi players (like Puromete, Mio, Galileo before he quitted) that i have seen in cp2 videos still do that.

Unfortunately Litchi can still do that... Also it's not like that you can throw out steins blindly or when pressured

Meh, i still need justification why they removed the OD version of Totsuka. The setups to make it deal high damage in 1.1 is rather limited (seriously, your opponent needs to be like in the middle of a 5d 2d 5d 2d stein setup) and the inclusion of a 3 times hitting totsuka would compensate the loss of auto firing steins (which i strongly welcome though, because it leads to more stable OD combos) because otherwise her OD will only buff habakiri and make steins fire faster

Amane's close range tools look quite bad and i think that he is pretty much a zoner XD

The only lasers that are noticably faster in cp are her totsuka and yata no kagami imo. I think the primary reason for her 1.0 and 1.1 laser fortresses being stupid was the increased hitstun (juggling you into other other set stein lasers on air hit) and more blockstun to lock the opponent down since the uncharged lasers had almost no blockstun in CSE

Blame Arc system works for thinking that buffing the hit and blockstun on her regular lasers in CP 1.0 (likely to make it a part of her combos) a good idea, but because of that they likely nerfed her old zoning tools (habaya, totsuka and habakiri were all nerfed badly compared to CSE) to make up for it. This time they left her with a weaker Totsuka, Habaya and habakiri compared to CSE and weaker d lasers compared to CP 1.0 and 1.1 I already said once on this forum that i think that they probably intended to make Mu more a regular rushdown character after each iteration by nerfing her zoning tools every time and that looks quite true in 2.0 As for the backdash, i really haven't seen any noticable difference compared to Nu's backdash in 1.1.

236d was not much of a free get-in ticket since cp compared to cse because of the increased recovery even if you TK it Also combined with he faster CP totsuka lasers, you couldn't get to mixup your opponent much during it

Fullscreen stein sets was viable pressure, since there are characters who have a hard time dealing with it because Mu was better at footsies than those certain characters. But then again, locking the opponent down with wellplaced steins was stupid though IMO her biggest nerf to me is probably having less stable damage, due to -j.2c change, which is replaced by 2c however her air to air combos will be bad. Unless from a CH j.2c -ikutachi not being her main midscreen combo because of the changes in range and unable to stein cancel it (so you will be swapping sides) -5c>6c no longer working on air hits unless CH Plus her corner carry got probably worse as well with the above mentioned changes. edit: IMO her close range stayed the same, because none of her close range normals that much got better. She will still struggle at footsies at close range against characters like Bang, Ragna or Jin. Her mixups might be better because of her 6b change (although i think that her gattling to 6b are changed because i haven't seen anyone try 5b or 6a >6b yet) and we still have the unexplored new stein cancels , but that doesn't make Mu that much of a stronger close range character

I still runup dp with Mu on other people's wakeup when i have 50 meter, now i can do the same with Celica

I am starting to like Celica's "dp", since it can be used as a yomi to beat other reversals, because it's invulnerability can be longer than theirs since you can extend your dp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFkbml9bBNg&t=3m31s

Well the good news is that (like someone already said on his twitter) that Mu's 5a has increased hitstun on airhit and we can 5a>5c without a counterhit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yazw-Dj1Dmo&t=8m25s but at the same time it's pretty much confirmed by now that 5c>6c won't work without a CH and a small example here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yazw-Dj1Dmo&t=8m47s Ikutachi doesn't seem to be like -22f on block anymore https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yazw-Dj1Dmo&t=10m57s