Airk

Well, standing and blocking beats Atomic Collider (in that you can react and facepunch him) if he's expecting you to jump, and the payoff is much better than 623A vs Atomic Collider.

Me either, but I'm going to have to start doing it.

Good god man, you could've like, let him win one or something.

Kindof amused by how screwy PSR is for these. 583! Yay!

It's kinda a stupid guessing game - VERY rock paper scissors. Tager's options are: Throw/360 - beats blocking, jabs, loses badly to jumps, somewhat to backdashes. Atomic Collider - Beats jumps, loses horribly to everything else. 5C/Sledge - Beats backdash, breaks even vs blocks and jumps (as long as you jump and block), loses badly to jabs Jabs - beats jabs, jumps, backdash gets away. Probably Tager's safest option. Nothing/Backdash - Beats any sortof reversal, loses advantage to jabs or just about anything else. The thing is that, really, Tager isn't at an advantage after Gadget finger, per se - almost all of his options will get him pounded hard if you out-guess him, but they all pay off well if he outguesses you. So put on your mindgames hat.

Charge cancelling has never given an appreciable amount of charge though - you'd need to do a TON of it to maintain anything that resembles a reasonable number of charges, since even at CS2 charge rates, you'd need to charge cancel 4 times in order to get a single charge. It's really nice that charge cancelling is strong now (Assuming it is) but even so, I'd be a little worried about relying on it for charge.

Well yeah, and I feel any nerfing is unwarranted considering Tsubaki's firm "middle of the list" position on the chart, but it's EXTRA stupid because we don't even really know what's going on. Nothing fills me with confidence like someone saying "Blah is definitely blah" because that makes it clear just how much of a judgement call it is.

This actually works on lot of people, though you might just want to use j.C instead of flying headbutt, because it's a lot safer, and they'll usually be below you anyway. Otherwise, well... In terms of the Jin matchup, a lot of it is playing careful and figuring out what your opponent likes to do. Jin has a lot of stuff that's really dangerous if he catches you offguard with it, but easy to counter for a lot of damage if you're ready. Jin doesn't really have any safe normals, so he has to end his blockstrings with something fancy - the usual tricks I've seen are: Ending with 5C and jump cancelling. This can be an open season invitation to a 2C anti-air from you if they just jump forward to try to continue their pressure (like the Jin in the match did several times early on). Fancier Jins will then either airdash or do some nonsense with air ice swords. Beating this is a question of reacting correctly and not autopiloting a 2C. You can go through any ice sword with a 214x series move, and all air ice swords have landing recovery that you can catch if you can get past them. 6C > Dash Cancel > Optional DP or ice sword. Dash cancel is pretty unsafe, so a lot of Jin's try to punish your punish with a DP. The trick here is that if you punish with 2A, the B DP will go over your head, and the C DP is actually too slow to hit you before you recover. He can use the D-DP to hit you, but unless he has more heat to follow up with a super or a RC, it's not THAT bad. "ending" with 6B - 6B is plus on block, but you can jab him out of the startup very easily if you're expecting it. Be wary of throws afterwards if you block. Ending with Ice Sword - only C ice sword is really very safe on block, and it has enormous startup, so these are generally punishable. Ending with 6D - this is like 6B, in that it's very plus on block if you block it, but it's 35 frames of startup, so can easily be backdashed out of or jabbed if you're close enough. Always block low with Jin, particularly on wakeup (Lots of Jin players will do a meaty 2B on your wakeup), though if he has 50 heat and is very close you'll need to keep an eye open for his overhead, which is quite fast, but has minimal range and leads to nothing except on CH or RC. In the neutral game, Jin doesn't really have pokes to match your 5B - his 5B and 5C are fast, but don't have as much in way of range as 5B does. On the other hand, his air normals are REALLY GOOD, and you should attempt to never meet him in an 'honest' air to air - if he's airborne first, don't chase him, he has entirely too many good options there (If anything, I think this is what cost you the match). Stay grounded when he jumps, and react to his stuff appropriately - 2C will stuff the majority of jump ins, but try to throw it late to avoid him faking you out with an ice sword. Also, a little careful with your 5D charges, because as you found out, he can punish fullscreen with ice car (or ice-wave super). 2D is actually probably the better choice for charging at neutral here, because Ice Car actually goes -over- it, and it recovers fast enough that if you let go of the button during superfreeze for Ice Wave, you'll have time to block. At match start, 22A is an...okay start, but risky because some Jin players are aggressive enough/knowledgeable enough to know that they can beat that with a forward jump into a big combo. 214B beats most of the same stuff that 22A does and is safer against jump ins. Alternatively, since Jin doesn't really have anything meaningful he can poke you with at starting distance (he could theoretically do 6C or 2D, but this is not generally wise) you can just crouchblock and react to jump ins with 2C and backdashes with 236C. (Actually, the patient start isn't a bad one against a lot of characters.) Dunno how much of that is going to be "Duh! Basics!" for you, but you asked for advice on the Jin matchup.

Sorry I went off on a tangent, but that was uncalled for. Anyway, I think my original point, lost as is, is still valid: We shouldn't assume that 3C isn't now a fatal counter just because someone wrote a combo without specifically marking it as a fatal counter. That's all. Now back to everyone complaining about different kinds of stupid stuff.

I understand the mechanics of FCs; What I don't understand and probably never will is the compulsion to label them under any circumstances other than the odd exceptions where you need to do something special to make it FC. Anyway, the implication is, though, that just because someone didn't label something FC is -no- reason to assume that the move doesn't fatal counter, if other information indicates it does. That's all.

Overall, it's NOT useful. DuskThanatos?) had a pretty saucy 2 charge Mugen midscreen combo in the combo video thread though <rummages>: but overall, Mugen is pretty garbage except for 5 charge 100 heat combo video nonsense.

That is...so weird.

But it doesn't MATTER. If I read a combo that says Move1[CH] > Move2 > Move3 > Move4, from the perspective of me doing that combo, it makes no difference to me whether Move1 is a fatal counter or not. Yes, the combo is only possible because Move1 is a fatal counter move, but that's no different from the combo only being possible because Move1 has 100% P1 or something, and we don't write THAT in the combo notes. It's not like you can somehow NOT get a Fatal Counter when you do a counterhit with an FC move, so the label is just unnecessary bookkeeping to me. I fail to understand how this could make any sense. @_@ But yes - I agree with Daeddron - our max damage is really ridiculously unimpressive considering what other characters are capable of, even under 'real world' situations. And our "real world" situations are actually harder to come by than almost anyone else's other than maybe Hakumen's, because for us, a "max damage" situation not only requires what it does for everyone else (Perfect position, excellent counterhit starter, 100% heat, blahbah), but it also requires a bunch of charges that the rest of the cast doesn't have to worry about. I continue to have doubts that Arcsys is designing this character intelligently.

Tsubaki? She's definitely high on the execution scale for her good combos, she has fierce corner carry, and good pressure. Alternatively, Makoto probably fits that bill too.

Really? That doesn't seem right. Or rather, it should stop MagnaTech wheel, because it has guardpoint, not invulnerability, and it'll beat 360B because you'll grab him before he grabs you (Should actually produce a throw counter purple throw?) but 360A and 720 should both be invulnerable by the time your throw lands. Beating Magnatech with 214D seems... unlikely too because that move has SO MUCH guardpoint on it. Frame data says it starts at frame 1 as well, so the only time you should be able to hit him out with ANYTHING should be towards the END of the move, and if you're free to act at that point, you might as well let him finish. Dunno though. Something weird coulda happened!

I've never understood the need to specifically label fatal counters. I mean, if a move is a fatal counter move, then CHs with it are ALWAYS Fatal counters. It's not like it's some weird property where the Fatal only happens some of the time. 6C CH is Fatal. Period. There's no need to write anything special to denote it. Sadly, I'm right there with you. Honestly, I -still- think that Tsubaki should've done MORE damage in CS2; When other characters can get 4-5k in the corner meterless, and we need charge to do that, there's something wrong. That said, without any footage showing us how fast or slow charging is now, it's hard to judge how much this hurts. Edit: Okay, reading the changelists people are posting right now, I have concluded that: A) ASW is being really stupid with Tsubaki. -_- B) The people recording the changes can't even make up their own minds about what works and doesn't, since in the same freakin' changes post, we have "{2A, 2A, 5BB, 2BB, 5CC, 22C, 6C} works" and "{22C, 6C} does not work anymore" which is clearly selfcontradictory. I am going to ignore this crap for at least a week. It's only going to depress me otherwise.

Is it 5B gatling to 6C then kara cancel 6C into throw, or is it just 5B > recover > 6C Kara Cancel throw? And yeah. I start a lot of matches with 22A, but that Tao was always jumping back or backdashing, so it was whiff city with that.

I'm practicing the IAD stuff - I'm actually at the point (though I wasn't when this was recorded) that I feel comfortable attempting them in real matches, so expect to see those appearing soon. 3CC is indeed a terrible round starter, but sometimes, it works because it is terrible. That also wasn't my first round against that Tao, so it was an educated guess that she'd be flying around somewhere in that area. I really DO need to work on working in 5B > Kara throw or 5BB > Kara throw stuff. I think that's probably my next major practice point.

Well, I bet charging is still faster than CS1; But lets be honest, the ridiculous button tapping of 5D for charge was, er, ridiculous, and I'm not surprised it was changed. Nerf to 5B makes me very, very sad. =/ And uh, Daed, I think charge cancel is already 0 and not negative - at least off of 5C and 5CC. Of course, it's negative if they IB.

Rare footage of how bad I am. Save your mockery of the double-purple-throw teching failure please. -_- My execution is so bad it pains me.

I thought it was pretty good. And I totally understand why you weren't using more 6A - namely, your opponent KEPT getting hit by the lows. Overall, I noticed the following: Your hitconfirms were kinda wobbly - you got a bunch of hits that ended up not going anywhere. This will come with practice, obviously. I would suggest a little bit more use of the 22D unblockable - particularly when in/near the corner. The end of the 2nd match where you had one charge remaining and dropped the combo (which resulted in a 22A being blocked) would've been the perfect time to instead use a 22D reset - you were near the corner, and your opponent was low on health and probably frantically blocking, so the odds of you getting poked out of it were slim. 22D unblockable also would've worked nicely on Litchi's wakeup there, since without her staff she has no DP option. More throws, more air throws (though I did like your 2B > Air throw setup) Generally, you don't want to be in the habit of jumping to meet people in the air - if you are airborne first, that's one thing, since your options all work from there (Air throw and pretty much ALL air normals and specials hit at a downward angle), but if they're going to be level or higher than you, the only thing you've really got is an air throw. (Which leads into pretty nice damage, really, but can get beat out by attacks with real range.) This is extra true with characters like Litchi who have lots of air range.

It's hard to tell a lot from this video, because you pretty much walked all over your opponent. All I could really pick up on was: A little too much 236X at close range. You are definitely opting for the air combo ender too often relative to using the 236B>214B>22C ender, which gives up a little (like 200 or something) damage for better position. You also seem to have some 'patterns' in your offense - you go for several whatevers in a relatively short amount of time, be that overheads, throws, 6C jump cancels, or whatever. It doesn't seem to be causing you any problems here, but it might be seen as being slightly predictable.

Be CAREFUL with this - 4D has foot attribute and will blow up your 214X stuff for fatal counter badness. Or did you mean j.214x? In which case, well, the spacing is pretty fidgety, because 4D's "blast" hitbox is WAY higher than it looks like it should be, and is taller than Noel for as long as it's out. This...hasn't really worked for me, overall. In fact, I don't seem to be able to jump in on her AT ALL, because 4D just blows up whatever I try, or if I block 4D, she just keeps going with her drive string into mixup/primer breaking/pushback/etc.

Heh. I tend to have the opposite problem, where I get stupidly over aggressive after a burst, get hit, and put right back in the corner. >.< I got THRASHED by a Ragna player the other day, like, 1 for 5 sort of thing, where I swear by the end it was like playing an entirely different person than in the beginning. (They started out close, but weren't by the conclusion.)

Have you tried delaying it a little more? There should be plenty of time to hit with it there.