Airk

But it's not different. That's what Oki -is-. It's not confined to "stuff that forces your opponent to block". It's baiting DPS. It's crossups. It's walking up and throwing your opponent because they think you're going to try something clever. It's a mindgame. Trying to say that you need an attack that forces block on wakeup to have Oki is like saying you need ham to have a sandwich. Ham is a part of a great many good sandwiches, but it's by no means required. Sadly, Tsubaki's list of ingredients is pretty short.

I don't really get it either; To me Millia's disc on wakeup isn't really any different from the oldest "oki" in the book - namely a meaty attack in SF2. It's not even ambiguous, as far as I can tell. But this is seriously off topic. Can we get these oki posts split out of this thread?

Correct me if I'm being stupid here, but doesn't a 22D>Mugen combo require at least 2 charges (1 for 22D and 1 required to start the Mugen) and then subsequently consume all your charges? Which makes it inaccurate to represent that combo as 5k for "only 1 charge"?

Character designs, and having finally invested in a fightstick due to SSF4, I figured I should give it a shot and support the genre. I'd also like to go on record as saying that I got into BB -in- -spite- of Guilty Gear, because I played GGX way back on the Dreamcast and found it pretty but no fun at all, so I had some misgivings going in.

Hooray, I'm already being ridiculed. Thank you for your time, but, well, if this were an objective phenomenon, I shouldn't need to have played the game to detect it. I don't have any preformed opinions here. When Sophisticat posted that "CT was a much faster game." and that it had "more space" (Both direct quotes) and then went on to link videos, I didn't think it was a huge leap of faith to theorize that anyone should be able to tell, from the evidence presented, that CT was in fact objectively faster and objectively had more space. If that can't be determined from visual evidence, then either it's not nearly so apparent (Certainly a number of people in this thread who appear to have played CT don't seem to be convinced) as the term "much faster" might lead one to believe, or that it's not, in fact, an objective phenomenon at all, which would certainly explain the difference in opinion. Well, it's been fun. Now back to your regularly scheduled complaining about how Arcsys has no idea what they're doing.

... I was trying to do it from the videos? Wasn't that what they were for? If the difference in speed is so significant, shouldn't it be visible? Otherwise, why bother linking the videos at all?

Uhm, yes? I skipped SF4 and went straight to Super, too. Is that strange?

I'm...really not seeing the perspective difference. I even did my own research here. Since both games have variable zoom, it's really hard to make a clean comparison. =/ The CT vid you posted did seem to be moving faster, but that almost felt like it was just because the characters' moves were faster, so... I'm just at a loss. It seems weird that they would make that sort of change though. Disclaimer: I never played CT.

Get used to disappointment.

It's clearly -not- a sword. If you glance at the 8 second mark here it has way too much haft to qualify. That said, I think it's a bit of a silly argument. It's none of the above. It doesn't even 'naturally' have a blade. It's a ceremonial sceptre that then sprouts some sort of energy blade. I suppose that would make it closer to some sort of spear like implement, though really, the options range from "short spear like with a modest haft and short blade" to "ridiculous weapon that defies all classification" with the same length half an excessively long blade. You can't actually -see- how far the blade extends, so the whole discussion is pretty much insoluble, but the combination of the "haft" portion that we do see, and the way it is held and used point pretty firmly away from "sword".

Roight. Well, waiting to see.

I like some of what I'm seeing, but I'm baffled why they would nerf her throw followups. It's not like she's picking up some awesome high low game to help break down people's defense or something, so...I kinda don't get it. Still, as people say, it's just the first test, so who knows what random stuff will change.

Wow; I watched your first match, and I've got -nothing-. That was serious business. Good luck!

Again; It's a matter of conditioning. If you do 5BB->2BB->5CC every block string, they KNOW that they can just sit there and block low, or, at least, block low after the first two hits. And they will. But if suddenly after the third or fourth time, that blockstring turns into 5BB->6A, they're not going to be expecting it, and they're going to get hit. You don't think your opponent is -reacting- every time to your 2B, do you? So yeah. Don't -start- with 6A (at least, not often - unless, say, you've conditioned your opponent that you like to run in with 6B.) 6A is not bad and without, you've got nothing except jump attacks to keep your opponent from just lowblocking all the time, so use it. The important thing is to keep your opponent guessing. Break up your blockstrings by adding tick throws at random places. Put the 6A in randomly - you can gatling to it off of any of the first four attacks in your string - 5B->6A, 5BB->6A, 5BB->2B->6A, 5BB->2BB->6A. Yeah it won't -combo-, but that's okay because you're not hitting him anyway. Observe when your opponent likes to block low - does he only do it when he's expecting the 2B? Or is it his preferred block? Etc. To win with Tsubaki, you've really got to outplay your opponent, and that means using all the tools you've got to do what your opponent isn't expecting, and then capitalize.

My pretty amateur opinion. Take all comments with a grain of salt. Astral only has about half a second of invulnerability (25 frames), and that starts counting at the flash, so you can't use it to just indiscriminately blow through projectiles. So yes, you were too far away. I don't know about 'predictable' but it's not doing you a lot of good - you got a hit off it the first time when he tried to dash in following a Spike Chaser, but most of the time, that's abnormal behavior for Lambda, so you haven't really accomplished much by avoiding the 214D except maybe saving yourself a guard primer. Mostly it looks like you just need a little practice recognizing the startup of her 214D and superjumping or airdashing towards her at that point. Other than that, I'm not seeing much mixup from you - mostly you got your damage when your opponent was hitting buttons or just stopping his guard. Mix in 6A and 6B/2B (outside of 5BB>2BB). While it's okay to do the "Basic" combo on block, if you do the same thing over and over, you risk getting reversed, and perhaps more importantly, your opponent always knows just how to block. Since this is a blockstring and not a combo, it's -okay- to use those "non-comboing" gatlings - 5BB->6a when they're expecting 5BB->2BB. Run in with a 6BB or 6A combo instead of just a plain 5B. 5B is great and you can get a lot of damage off it, but you're relinquishing a chance at making your opponent guess wrong on which way to block. Similarly, while you applied some pressure with throws, you failed to followup the one successful one I saw - any throw should lead into, at the barest minimum, a 236A->214A->22C combo. There's more complicated stuff you can do too, but -something- should come after the throw. And of course, there's 22D, though in the Lambda fight, it may be hard to muster the charge. That's my severely unpolished two cents - including a lot of theoryfighting that I'm not good enough do reliably myself, so I daresay others will offer better advice soon enough.

So... in a nutshell, it's an ability that wouldn't be much good even if it was brought over, due to system differences? Sounds like all the more reason to come up with something fresh.

Fair enough! Thanks pktazn! I think we're mostly on the same page, and anyway, this discussion is just for fun because it's not like Arc Systems is diligently monitoring this forum trying to figure out what to do. Oh, and thanks for the video on Action Charge. It seems like an interesting mechanic, but it also seems like it still breaks up the rhythm of your offense - is it really that big a difference from doing a combo that lands the enemy at a safe distance and then charging manually? It doesn't seem like it. Maybe going through projectiles would be a good use for 214? It's slower than 236, and otherwise lacks a point. Seeing some actual frame advantage on say, 236A would be nice though. Both definitely seem to be on the weak side. Her "mugen" should also give her the darn damage bonus that everyone else's 'special mode' gives them, and if they're only going to give her two different ones, it would be nice to see some decent invulnerability on the D button Confutatis.

I felt it was firmly implied in the nature of changes being suggested. Yes and no. The trouble is two fold: #1: Her drive is only barely on par with other characters drives when you have charge and #2: Even if it were better, you still can't -get- any charge. Both need to be fixed. Fixing one without the other gets you only minimal gains as you describe. Speaking of things no one was suggesting... Heck if I know. I agree here. I've been trying to figure out what this move was really supposed to do and coming up empty. I am, as I mentioned elsewhere, distinctly unfond of special moves that exist only to be used in combos and 214x is a textbook case. Now this, on the other hand, I'm not sure I can agree with; I mean, yes, you're correct that you can't just randomly throw out her specials, but that doesn't mean they don't have a purpose. Certainly just because you can't throw them out there without worrying about getting punished is no indicator - a quick glance at the frame data will show you that virtually all special moves across all characters leave you at a disadvantage on block. A small subset are "safe" on normal block, and none of those are safe on instant block. Special moves, almost by definition, aren't things you can just "throw out" there. Could Tsubaki's moves be better at fulfilling their purposes? Yes, definitely, but aside from 214x, I can come up with a purpose for all of them. It's just 214x that feels like it's practically just a followup for 236x. Yes, so will I. Aside: I'm not familiar with Action Charge, but a little bit of reading in the Order Sol forum gives me a vague idea of the mechanic. It sounds...well, I'm too vague on the important particulars to pass specific judgement, but I'd just like to say that I'm not in favor of poaching ideas from other characters in other games. I'd rather come up with something new and unique rather than go back to something that's already been done.

This is exactly what I was going for; Yes, there do need to be some changes 'up front' so she's not 100% dependent on her drive, but at the same time, it needs to key in really making her work. A Tsubaki that doesn't use any D button specials or charge canceling should be about as effective as any other character if they were forbidden from using their drive. But at the same time, she needs to be MORE dangerous than most characters when she has charge, because she doesn't always have it, and it needs to be obtainable, because a character that can't use their drive is just bad. Things like a real, powerful reversal in the form the D uppercut would go a long way towards that. But yeah. Whether you like my zany idea for making charge obtainable or not, I won't argue, but I will come down firmly in agreement with Sten on the style of fix that is needed. No one is ever going to be "afraid" of trying to stop Tsubaki from charging. In fact, we don't WANT them to be. We want them coming towards us. It's the only place she can do her damage. We want people to stick to us like glue in a desperate attempt to keep us from getting charge, because it's just that bad for them when we do.

So let me ask this question. What's he point of a character whose design is based around charging who...doesn't have to charge? I believe that a character's drive should be an integral part of their game - and certainly, the design of every other BB character indicates that that is generally a good idea. Therefore, I can't get behind the idea of just saying "Buff up her normals and stuff and then we won't have to charge! That solves the problem of charging sucking!" That's just not good design. Her Drive should be part of her game, not something that you work around.

I'm not going to argue for my idea; Either you like it and think it is interesting or you don't. Basically, as best as I can tell, there are two opinions on Tsubaki's problems: A) "She'd be fine except she never gets a chance to charge, and when she does she has to sacrifice momentum to do it" or B) She doesn't do enough damage/her normals suck. My idea fixes A. If you don't think that's the nature of the problem, then obviously it's not going to do it for you. I think it produces a more interesting character than the current one, and fits more closely with her lore, but that's my opinion. I also think it's probably not a 100% fix and that some fidgeting around with normals and specials is probably in order. As for "Order Sol" A) I don't know anything about him, so I'm not going to say anything except B) It's fairly clear to me from the way pktazn describes him that he was pretty poor in at least one of his incarnations - which seems to indicate that this "character that has to charge a gauge manually" thing hasn't exactly met with a high rate of success overall. I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions there.

I'm just making stuff up at this point, but Tsubaki's drive mechanism bothers me a little bit from a STORY angle; Everyone else in the game, their drive makes sense with their story (Okay, except maybe for Rachel - her drive just seems kinda random, but at least it behaves the way you'd expect wind control to work.). Izayoi is supposed to steal light - both from its owner (sadly) and from its victims. None of this is really reflected in how Tsubaki's drive works. The act of charging just doesn't seem to fit logically with how her weapon is 'supposed' to work. While actually making it "steal light" would probably be weird and awkward and, anyway, way too large a change, it seems like even using the existing gauge mechanic, this COULD reflect the story/lore better. First, so data on the gauge: The Install gauge is 50,000 units (1 bar=10,000). 5D charges at 160/Frame at first and 300/Frame after 16 frames 2D charges at 150/Frame at first and 190/Frame after 30 frames jD charges at 130/280/220 depending on how long you charge for (complicated) I propose the following: A) The install gauge fills 5 pts for every point of damage you inflict on your opponent (Possibly excluding damage from D attacks) as Izayoi steals light from your enemy. So just from doing damage, over the course of the match, you gain somewhere around 5 bars of charge. (Not quite five bars from Carl and Tao, slightly more for others) B) The install gauge fills slowly even from blocked attacks (maybe 1 pt for every 2 damage the attack might have done) - same rationale. So while maintaining an offense, your guage increases, albeit pretty slowly. C) All charges fill the gauge twice as fast as currently... but inflict 1 damage to YOU for every 25 pts of charge. (No damage if you charge while the gauge is totally full.) Izayoi steals light from Tsubaki. Charging is -fast- now, but comes at a cost. Charging your gauge from zero to full does 2000 damage to Tsubaki. This should produce the following effects: A) Charging is no longer the primary way you want to use to fill the gauge, but it remains viable to do -some- charging during the match, and it makes you less vulnerable when it does due to faster charge rates. B) It makes a constant rushdown more rewarding - if you are attacking and forcing your opponent to block, you are building some Install. If you are doing damage, you are building install fairly significantly. C) It produces a sort of "reverse Arakune" situation, where "normal" attacks build the gauge and Drive attacks drain it. D) It makes Tsubaki's drive more consistent with her storyline. (I know, I know, who cares, but I like this sort of thing.) Obviously, all the numbers on this could be tuned to produce a good balance, but I think the gist of the idea is sound. It would pretty radically change the way Tsubaki plays, but I know a lot of people around here who are way more experienced than me find the entire charge-dependancy idea is flawed, and I think I agree with the sentiment. Some other changes would probably be welcome as well - making one or both of her jump specials have overhead properties (at least on the D version), adding some meaningful invincibility to the D uppercut, changes to normals to make her less susceptable to IB/Reversals, etc, but I leave that sort of thing to people who know better than I do. On the other hand, I think this is an interesting way to make Tsubaki a ore effective 'in your face' character without having to completely replace her drive with something else.

Sad but true. =/ Remind me again why none of her airborne specials hit high?

Okay; I guess I just have a certain amount of distaste for moves that are -only- useful inside of combos. I have to question this a little. According to the frame data, 623A is invincible from frames 1-9, and airborne after frame 8. 623D is invincible from frames 1-10 and airborne at frame 10. I'm not really sure if the airborne frames really matter for this, but the invincibility frames are pretty clear - you get a single frame more invincibility from 623D. Technically, I guess that means that all the startup frames are invincible, but it's still an extremely small difference, and it doesn't seem like it would be sufficient to guarantee a trade. Honestly, I think this is one place Tsubaki could really be improved and improved easily - giving her a lot of invincibility on 623D stands next to no risk of being a problem since charge is such a limited resource. I can't help but feel that giving Tsubaki's drive moves more kick would help put her up on a more level playing field. Right now it feels like her drive almost gets in the way. I was confused by this for a bit - according to the frame data (Sorry for all the Theory fighting.) 623D does 430x3 (1,290) damage, vs 1,000 even for A/B/C. That's only 290 more damage even before we start talking about proration. But then I noticed that 623D prorates at 80/100 vs 50/70 for the other versions, so that's significant, at least. Indeed, it seems like a the D versions of her moves prorate much better than their normal alternatives, which is nice. Still doesn't stop me from wishing for more oomph though.

Oh. Boo. =/ Okay. I was hoping there was something I wasn't getting out of the frame data. So basically, 214D and 623D really don't gain anything over their normal versions? That's really depressing. I'm not really at the level of play yet where it's hard for me to get a charge, but I still don't want to waste them. I really like Tsubaki's design (visually) but it doesn't seem like they thought through her gameplay very thoroughly. Frustrating. I seem to have a knack for picking cool but not very good characters. -_-