Airk

Each of whom have essentially one game they need to play (particularly Makoto). If Hazama can shut that down, he wins. And he's been winning. a lot. Is it early? Yeah. But this isn't "His super is too strong!" or "No one can compare to his combos" but rather "he gets to pick when he fights and how" and on else really has that option the way he does.

Am I the only one who has a bad feeling about Hazama potentially being way too strong in CS2? I'm not even watching buppa vids, and it seems a lot of the cast just doesn't have any answer for his combination of being able to run away at will, being able to close in at will, and his nasty close range game. While he might not be able to beat any given character "at their own game" he has the option of choosing which game he plays, pretty much with impunity. I am deeply concerned. The rest of the roster looks pretty balanced (except for Arakune, who is always a nonsense crapshoot.) but Hazama just seems to be walking on folks for the most part.

I'm not following you at all. What do you think has changed that makes such a difference in her playstyle? Right now, it just looks like her CS1 playstyle only A) It works and B) there are more options. Also, sue me, I like understanding WHY things are why they are, and I'm generally not content with just being told that something is bad without anyone making the why's clear. :P

The level is factored in when calculating the frame advantage, yes, but that's the frame advantage if you DON'T CANCEL - i.e. if you just hit the move and let it finish. Any sort of cancel, be it "revolver action", jump cancel, or whatever reduces or removes the recovery frames, therefore completely changing the results. What I'm not clear on is the question I asked earlier - namely, whether gatlings/RA cancels cancel ALL the recovery of a move or only some specific part. That video, though, finally makes everything make sense. Why? Because the 5BB never even HITS. Before, I was concentrating on 5BB string not being safe because of something about 5BB's recovery, but in the video, Lambda goes from blocking a 5B - which is +1 on block even WITHOUT being cancelled - right into a Gravity Field, which then causes the subsequent 5BB to whiff because it goes through her during the invulnerable frames. (If you look really closely at 9:18, you can see the gravity field effects on the floor around her while the 5BB is passing right through.). Running the math: Frame 1: Lambda Blocks 5B, Gets 16 frames of Block Stun (Level 3 attack) Frame 2,3: The other two active frames of 5B. Lambda has 14 frames of block stun left. Frame 4: First Frame of recovery of 5B. 5B cancels, 5BB begins on the next frame. Lambda has 13 frames of block stun left. Frame 5-18: 13 frames of startup on 5BB. By the end of this, Lambda has no frames of blockstun left. Frame 19: First active frame of 5BB...but also the first frame of Gravity Field, which is invulnerable from 1-21. 5BB's hitbox may or may not have extended far enough at this point to make contact, but it's irrelevant because at this point Lambda is invulnerable. Frame 20: Whiff! Etc. So basically, this is a "perfect storm" situation for Lambda, but it also applies to any other move with frame 1 invulnerability. What it ALSO tells me, in the course of "Talking this through" like this is that Gatlings probably do cancel all but 1 frame of recovery, and that the critical decier for whether a blockstring is safe or not is: A) The level of the 1st attack B) The number of active frames of the 1st attack (more is worse) B) The STARTUP of the next attack. Recovery frames basically don't enter into it, because they are cancelled as long as you have something else to gatling to. Further investigation of frame data shows me that other characters who have attacks with similar attributes - such as Bang's 5B and 2B, have special doctored settings to make their blockstrings safe - Bang's 5B and 2B give EXTRA BLOCK STUN beyond what is normal for level 3 attacks. The other way it works is with characters like Ragna, is that his attacks come out faster - 5C and 2C are only 12 frames of startup, which is precisely the number you need to be able to safely gatling from a level 3 attack like, say, 5B. I finally get it. And now I am really crabby, because half of Tsubaki's balance issues could've been fixed if someone at Arc had spend 10 F-ing minutes doing the math like I just did. Goddamnit. Oh well, as long as this is fixed in the patch. Idiots.

I presume it's because it can be jump cancelled on block? If I'm understanding the notation correctly in the frame data, 5BB can only be jump cancelled on hit? (It doesn't actually say what the parenthesis mean, so I'm guessing.)

This probably doesn't have anything to do with it at all, since you cancel the recovery when you gatling into the next move. The problem might have something to do with the number of startup frames on 2B (13) but even so, 5BB is a level 3 attack, which means it should give 16 frames of blockstun, which means the opponent should be in blockstun until 1 frame after 2B hits. Assuming a 'perfect' gatling that cancels all the recovery. I don't know if it actually works this way - does anyone know if gatlings cancel ALL the recovery for a move, or just a specific amount depending on the move? Under those sorts of circumstances, there's no way people would be able to "mash out" with anything but an invincible startup move - and actually not even that, since I don't think you can cancel blockstun with a special? And none of this even approaches explaining which charge cancelling 2B does any good?

I know this is a dumb question, but I'm going to ask it anyway: Why is this string unsafe? I can theorize that the gatling from 5bb to 2b leaves you at -frames (Though that's strictly theory because the frame data doesn't really have any indication of when 5BB can be canceled), but 2b is only -1 on block all by itself. So I'm not actually even sure what charge canceling it accomplishes, since 2D adds at least 6 vulnerable frames (1 frame of actual charging and 5 of recovery.). So unless you're able to charge cancel VERY early in the recovery, in which case, wouldn't that actually make you + on block? Which would be... I mean, ow my brain. So basically, I'm taking it on the word of the better players here that this string IS unsafe, but I don't really understand why. Can someone fill me in here?

This isn't really safe at current, by my understanding, but depending on the calibur of your opponent you might be able to get away with it. The best "any other move" to cancel into is probably 22C, though you can still be countered in between or afterward by an opponent who is good at instant blocking. Fortunately, it's a delayable move, so you can screw with them a little bit there. The other advantage of 22C is that it looks like 22D and if you can condition your opponent to block the 22C they're more likely to sit there while you charge an unblockable 22D. But yes, right now as far as "safe" blockstrings, you have: 5AAA 2AAA 5B (Okay, technically not a string, but safe. :P )

Better players will give you better answers than this, but: A) Her distortion drives aren't really very good until you reach the level of execution to milk her "mugen" (214214D) for good damage. You may want to save your meter for rapid cancels and/or counter assaults. (Or her surprisingly non-terrible Astral. :P ) B) You can tack on 236236 C/D after 5CC in most combos, or after a 22D at the end of her basic BnB. (5BB,2BB,5CC,236A,214A,22D,236236C/D). This doesn't really add a lot of damage overall, but I found it the easiest way to work in a super. Probably only actually useful if it'll end the round, and even then there's probably a better combo somewhere.

We're not ignoring you, but nobody knows.

Don't roll. Neutral tech (down+button) and block. It's not the greatest position to be in, but at least you're not immediately taking damage again. You don't really want to be in the corner, so you might want to consider a counter assault or something once you block a few things, or if you can instant block and get back on the offense, that works too. You just have to neutral tech and work on your defense.

Again.... it doesn't require you to TRICK them. If they do anything other than an invincible reversal, you have the advantage, either by hitting them or by being at +3 frames on block of 22D. But whatever. Hopefully now that the game is out, we can start getting real info on what works when and what the windows are for this stuff.

Can we get a convenient translation guide for the Japanese move nicknames to motions? It's pretty useless to read something like that and not know what moves they're talking about. All I've been able to figure out is that: Light=j236 Wings=j214 Spear=623 Not sure what Sword, Wind, or Light are.

Again, given the numbers above, it's NOT a gimmick. Using the current numbers, you get -real- frame advantage from cancelling into a 22D. Requires no conditioning, makes 236X safe. Period. Non-gimmick. Can you do anything with it? Who knows. Is it "real"? Not yet, but it easily could be.

Well, obviously it depends on the move, but odds are you can at least count on it being a CH if it hits. If they're mashing to try to punish, 623D should give you a couple K of damage. If they're NOT mashing to try to punish you, you can turn it into 22D shenanigans or just block and be at neutral. It REALLY depends on the size of the cancel window and when it starts, because we COULD in theory be at a surprising amount of advantage - if we want to just play with random numbers here and say that the 236C gets the same sort of cancel properties as 236D on block (i.e. you can cancel into a new move after 2 frames of recovery) then assuming you get 18 frames of blockstun (level 4 attack), you hit, you cancel into 22D at 2 frames of recovery, your opponent is still in blockstun for somewhere between 6 and 16 frames. (More frames the further you were away when you started - the fewer remaining active frames, the longer they are in stun). 22D has a 14 frame startup and even a fast jab takes 5 frames to get active. This means that if you had less than half your active frames remaining, they can't jab you before 22D comes out and hits them. And if they're blocking, well, 22D is +3 on block even if you release it right away. Yeah, they can still clobber you with the likes of Inferno Divider or something with fast invincibility, and you have to choose your 236 attack so you hit towards the end of the active frames, but otherwise, it ALMOST looks like pressure. :P Assuming you have charge. Though it sounds like they might've made charging easier? Who knows, the whole thing is muddled. That's all Super Theory Fighter, of course, since it all hinges on numbers we don't have, but it serves as an example of what could be possible if they don't completely screw with the numbers. Will it magically fix issues with holes in blockstrings? No, but will allow more pressure from her 'normal' special moves.

Well, very little should lose to 623D. But yes. That said, it all really depends on the window for the cancel.

Right, sorry. I was mixing it up with Daifunka, which apparently does have "Invincible from 1F through 24F after super freeze" in the frame data. x.x And yeah, Ginseng, we have to block, but you know, blocking is better than getting comboed. The point is that now that there is the threat of a D-move cancel, we can use moves that are unsafe on block because the fact that we MIGHT cancel it means that they have to hesitate before punishing and give up the advantage they would have had otherwise. I think.

Thanks!

Not following you. If they wait until we "don't cancel" they would also miss their punish window? Assuming it's the same sort of cancel window you'd get on block, you're only looking at a very small handful of frames for them to attempt a punish in, and if they guess wrong, they're catching a hit in their teeth. I think the only situation in which this would be problematic is when you've got someone like Ragna with a reversal that has a lot of invulnerability frames.

Speaking of that tutorial vid, what's going on HERE against Hakumen? It looks like she starts to jump and then somehow cancels it, lands and throws?

Block. Keep blocking. Block some more. Sneak in a jab. Very rarely should you try to uppercut out unless you can really read what's coming. Edit: Oh, and you can use a counter assault if you want too, because your supers mostly suck anyway. :P 236D is an acceptable way to close space IFF you don't abuse it. Likewise 236C or j214x if you have a rapid cancel in your pocket. Otherwise, stick to conventional means of approach. It is very difficult to time correctly, since the immunity is very short, you have to do it just as the projectile is about to hit you. 214B has more invulnerability, but not quite at the start. 22B has a full projectile guard (until you release? Not 100% sure) so you can shrug off projectiles, but it doesn't move you forward, so you don't usually get much out of using it. There's a pretty okay Video guide here that shows the different times her B moves have projectile immunity, but the timing is generally impractical. 2C is excellent. Edit: fixed a screwup in notation. There's no '213B'

Now if they'd just make it air unblockable... :P Totally in favor of this. This adds some nice mixup, depending on when you're allowed to cancel out of things, but being able to cancel out of any blocked special into 22D or 623D or even 236D is definitely going to keep people guessing about whether they should try to punish blocked specials. Absolutely no way to tell, because it depends on how close you are to the ground. Though since there was some talk about "gravity" being stronger in CS2 (As in, people return to the ground faster after some stuff) it's not impossible? Still really sad. Why do Tsubaki's supers have to suck so badly? Why can we blow an entire bar of charges for nothing when Bang gets insane invulnerabiltiy on his stupid explody super that only costs him heat and does more damage? @_@ We're stuck with the worst "power up" super in the game too... =/

What's wrong with 6B? The problem with 6B is that the range on 5C is so short so you can't capitalize on a 6B hit. That's a problem with 5C, not 6B. It prorates a little bit better than 2B and does more damage. I guess it could stand to be faster, but it's a standing low with reasonably decent range. If you could just combo into 5C reliably, I think it'd be pretty decent. 6A suffers from similar problems - it's a bit slow, and 5C has crap range so you can't combo off it half the time. I vote we fix 5C instead. :P This is interesting, but it's a pretty fundamental change to the character. I think we need to face the fact that we have, essentially, a "upside down Arakune" character - she's going to be weaker than the rest of the cast with no charge and she's going to need to work for it a little bit. (Only a little. You just need a decent knockdown). The problem is that fundamentally, even if Tsubaki gets a full charge bar, she's still not as scary as post curse Arakune. This is a problem. I'm definitely in the "D button specials aren't good enough" camp. I went over this once already, and basically we have: 236D: A good example of what a charge move SHOULD be. Plus on block. Stuns for combo followup on hit. Crosses up for confusion. Very nice. 214D: A good example of what a charge move should never be. Yeah, it's plus on block, but it does literally nothing else except pick up 130 damage. This move needs to DO something. I don't know what, but it needs SOMETHING to be more than garbage combo filler, which is not what charge moves should be. Maybe 1 hit of "super armor"? That would help compensate for the slow startup. 623D: Picks up a whole 1 frame of invulnerability over the A version and may actually do LESS damage than other versions due to proration (haven't actually checked, but it's 430x3). This should have serious startup invulnerability. Like, 30 frames. If Ragna can have 20 for FREE on Inferno Divider, we should be doing better if we have to spend a charge. There should be no trading with this move. 22D: Okay, this one's pretty good with the unblockableness and the plus on block. j236D: The projectile is a decent idea, but it's REALLY BAD on its own. Make the projectile more threatening and this move is OK. J214D: Yes please, let me spend a charge to be hugely negative on block. -_- Fix that and I guess this move would be okay. Should be an overhead though, frankly. It's like they don't understand Tsubaki's drive moves NEED to be BETTER than everyone else's because they require sacrifice in the form of charge time. Particularly now that they're making charging give out counter hits. It'd also be sortof nice if they actually make the projectile invulnerability aspects of her B moves a little more...usable.

Because, you know, Ragna never has to block spark bolt or anything. C'mon now. Let's be fair. You can be bitter, but be fair. So go play Ragna. I don't really care, but you know, this isn't helpful either. As for "Doesn't make sense to pay money to not win money"? I dunno about the rest of you, but any tournament I enter, I'm not going to count on winning no matter who I play. So I might as well play someone fun and enjoy myself. I pay money to go to movies. I pay money to do all kinds of stuff that involve ZERO potential payout. Paying money to have a good time in a tournament doesn't exactly break the trend there. Fine, I'm not getting on a plane for hundreds of dollars and more for a hotel so I can lose in a fighting game, but that's a whole different animal. I wouldn't go to that tournament no matter who I was maining. As for Tsubaki being definitively worse than Rachel, well, every matchup chart this site has ever produced disagrees with that assessment. So do I. So, apparently, does Arc Sys if the stuff they're changing about the two of them is any indication. I suck horribly at Rachel, but whenever I watch a match with her, I see her players doing some incredible crazy stuff, and then I look over at the damage and it's like, "Oh. Tsubaki gets that off a one charge bread and butter, and it took that Rachel player mad skills and 50 heat." Sorry, but no way is Tsubaki worse than Rachel. :P Rachel is at least as gimmicky, her damage is much worse, and her "zoning" is pretty darn weak.

You know what makes me sad? I watch lots of videos for various US tournaments and there's ALWAYS at least one RACHEL, who is, by all objective accounts, worse than Tsubaki, but there's very rarely ever a Tsubaki. It's like we have no pride.