Airk

No, they don't all need to do long combos or big damage, but the point is the fact that a character "does a lot of damage when he pushes C" is irrelevant if everyone else in the game can do a combo for 150% of that, even though their C attack doesn't do anywhere near as much damage. All this gets you is a character that newbies like because they can do lots of damage without using combos, but who can't really compete at higher levels. Yes, it would be silly to do Tager Driver levels of damage with a button press, but that's the problem. Either the character needs to do combos to be competitive, in which case how much damage the individual attacks do is sortof irrelevant, or the character doesn't, in which case, well, bad things. tldr; I don't think "Does a lot of damage with C attacks" is a meaningful advantage all by itself. This is sortof irrelevant if he can't turn those resources into damage - which some people seem to be asserting is a problem right now. Definitely. His corner carry is loltastic, and his damage is pretty sick. Anyway, I trust Mac's assessment on all things Hakumen related, so nothing much more to add on that subject, just a final comment: I realize Arc Sys has their heart in the right place with regard to balance, but I have philosophical issues with their seeming desire to arbitrarily and completely change things around with their updates, albeit only for some characters, and it's really kindof inexplicable as to which characters they decide to put in the blender each time. I guess they have some sort of platonic ideal of how each character "should" play, and so even if they're perfectly balanced with the rest of the cast, they get all sorts of arbitrary, weird changes in an effort to force people to play them the "right" way.

I've got no idea what kind of numbers of folks are in there playing P4 on random days, as I've only ever gone with express intent to meet up with people. It doesn't seem entirely implausible that what you describe would work, however.

Or it could be like Extend Tsubaki, where everyone looked at the loktest changes and said "These are going to make her suck." and they stuck with them, and lo and behold, she's pretty much the bottom of the tier list. Yes, she's not as bad as initially thought, but they did keep a whole bunch of nerfs that really have no business being there. The problem with "big damage on single hits" is that unless it's like, Gigantic Tager kind of damage, it generally ends up being "average/low damage for real, because his combos aren't very good". It's a combo based game - it doesn't really matter how much damage you get for pushing C once. What matters is how much damage you've done once you finish the combo. Not saying Hakumen doesn't need a little bit of toning down, but as usual, Arc Sys seems to be going for the saw when they want the scalpel.

Same old, same old. Playing P4A in story mode. :P Wanted to ask who is around for stuff this Friday. I should be free.

This bit here in the parenthesis is complete and total nonsense. Ragna didn't "invent" the DP, but his having a very good one vs other characters not certainly contributes to diversity in the cast. Innovation is irrelevant for purposes of diveristy - it doesn't matter whether the idea is new or old, only whether the idea is already present in THIS game, and in what way. Not Tsubaki - her "install mode" is still a distortion drive. Her OD is actually a completely unglamorous but super useful effect that gives her charge stocks (Rather the opposite of install mode.). It's a pretty good argument that at least SOME ODs will get used in neutral - while you probably CAN do OD combos that use the extra stocks it generates (I'm sure it'll be fun combined with Install), stocks are also super helpful in neutral.

Me either, though we probably should've guessed, since it has hilariously fast startup (5+0) and moves her forward a good bit.

Confirmed; Works in EX, all numbers match. Not a completely terrible burst-proof finish, I guess. :P

Yeah, it really depends on how useful the command grab is, because we certainly can't be relying on Overdrive for our 'day to day charging needs'. If the command grab is solid, then we'll be doing great, especially if we can cancel into it from blockstring stuff from non-kissing-range. If the command grab is slow, obvious, or super short ranged, this might be an issue, but until we know for sure, not much point speculating. jump cancellable 2B sounds like fun though.

Registered. Will go 0-2 in P4A and play Blazblue with anyone who wants to.

No no, according to the Ragna forums, Ragna is fine and his mixup is bad. In fact, he needs buffs!

This is really the best way to pick someone. I don't normally pick on stuff like this, but this is...completely inaccurate. Lambda's drives, while excellent at controlling space, don't really lead into a lot of damage, and if she whiffs one, it gets her into a lot of trouble. While they are not -weak-, her drive moves are FAR from overpowered at any sort of competitive level.

As Excelence says, almost everyone in BB can "rush down" to a certain extent - even Lambda, who is nominally the 'pure zoning character' is well served by going in for up close and personal mixup after her sickle-storm okizeme. From a pure 'stay in your face and don't let them get away' standpoint (ala Yang) you're looking at a choice of Ragna, Valkenhayn, Bang, Noel, Tsubaki and Makoto. In extend, that's roughly the tier order, though you can argue Ragna/Valk, Bang/Noel and Makoto/Tsubaki back and forth a lot. From a slightly more "patient" rushdown (for whatever reason), you are looking at Hakumen, Tao, Jin, and Litchi. (again in extremely vague tier order). You'll have to work with me on the 'patient' here - these are characters that either NEED to be patient because they don't have fast ways in (Hakumen) or can AFFORD to be patient beause they work a little better at non-point-blank ranges (Litchi, Jin), or can move around so damn fast that "getting in" isn't really the issue (Tao. Though you could argue valk is in this category too.). It's kinda hard to go wrong picking a main in this game at this point, though you may want to be a tiny bit wary of Makoto and Tsubaki, because overall they have to work harder than the rest of the cast. For more info on various folks, there's always the Dustloop Wiki for BBCS:EX, which has good info on...uh.. some of the characters. (It has all the frame data, but the subjective writeups on each character and their tools are of variable quality.). Also, I wrote up this stupid high-level sketch on all the characters a while ago, and I like reading my own text, so: Arakune: One of the most nonstandard characters in the game, still. His gameplan depends on stalling for time and applying enough pressure to land moves that curse his opponent, rather than really worrying about doing any meaningful amount of damage. Once he curses his opponent, he's quite capable of ending the round in a single big combo if his opponent can't hold him off long enough. Bang: A high mobility, close range character with some deceptive tricks. Bang has pretty good mixup with high/low, a command throw, and crossups, and he has a limited supply of nails that he can use to apply pressure/control space/set up mixups. Carl: Another thoroughly nonstandard character, Carl is almost two characters in one, since the player controls his robotic 'sister' as well as well as Carl himself. Carl has low health and iffy pressure on his own, but if he can get an opponent trapped between himself and Nirvana, he has extremely punishing mixup (verging on the unblockable with the right setups) and brutal resets that can end a match quickly. Hakumen: A character for the patient, Hakumen consumes his 'heat' ('super') gauge with all his special moves, though it fills on its own over time. His normals control a lot of space and his drive is a counterattack mechanic that can be used to turn things around if you can predict your opponent. He's somewhat lacking in mobility, however. Hazama: A pretty unique character, with an unusual style of mobility; He's bad at moving around via 'normal' methods, and his normals lack range, but he has extremely strong mobility and space control capabilities using his chains. He's also an explosive character, because while his 'general' midscreen (and even corner) damage is forgettable, certain starters lead into a LOT of damage, and he can use 50 meter to turn almost any hit into a large combo. Jin: Jin is well rounded and maybe the closest thing the game has to a 'standard' style character. He controls space very well at a number of different ranges and has a mean air game, but his mixup is a little weak, and he has to compensate by being tricky. Easy to play, hard to master. Lambda-11: The one really dedicated zoning character in the game; Lambda can potentially hit almost anywhere on the screen at neutral, but you'll need good reflexes and smart reads to make sure that your attacks go where your opponent does. Played well, she can keep most opponents from ever getting near enough to threaten her, closing in only for combo damage, and then backing away before they can recover. Litchi: While a relative 'standard' character, Litchi switches between, essentially, two 'stances' depending on whether she is holding her staff or not, and her gameplay is dependant on being able to switch fluidly between them, and use the projectile properties of her staff to create openings. She also has some of the strongest corner 'oki' in the game, which can make it very hard for opponents to escape once she pins them down in the corner. Makoto: A fairly straightforward rushdown character, with quick movement, short range normals, and fairly strong mixup (Fast overhead, tricky stuff with Asteroid vision). Currently considered a little bit weak due to not really having anything on par with Bang's mobility and nails, which forces her to work harder to get in and stay in. Mu-12: A sort of half-zoning character, with long range normals and a variety of projectiles that work in unusual ways and can be used to apply pressure or set up approaches. Has huge damage potential, but relatively weak mixup. Noel: Another relatively short ranged character, Noel has a number of attacks with strange invulnerability properties on them and applying those attacks to counter your opponent's options is key to her game. Platinum: A close to mid-range character whose playstyle changes based on what random item she has at any given time. Each item gives her a strong option, and being able adjust on the fly to take advantage of each one is crucial for her game. Rachel: A weird combination of pressure and zoning, Rachel has the ability to put a lot of different...stuff on the screen to either keep her opponent out, or create an opening for herself to go in and do damage. She has the ability to enhance her mobility through the use of her drive as well, but using too much of her wind gauge moving around seriously decreases her ability to do damage, since many of her combos require wind. Ragna: Ragna is a pretty basic character with good mid-range attacks, and strong defensive and mixup options. He gets a lot of damage off just about everything, and is pretty much the 'flavor of the month' for folks who want the best results for the least work. Relius: Sortof a "character and a half" compared to Carl's two. His 'partner' Ignis, moves around independantly of him as a result of many of his moves, and can be used to create a sort of tag-team pressure. Not as devastating as Carl, but a bit more consistant. Tager: Tager is a grappler, so he's got low mobility, and big damage. Very strong against some opponents, but struggles against characters that can 'lame him out' by getting a life lead and running away. Still pretty solid this time around though. Taokaka: If Bang is "highly mobile" Tao takes it up to 11. Plays like pretty much no character ever, anywhere, with her ability to zoom around the screen and attack from all sorts of crazy angles. Not an easy character for most people to learn, but capable of really blowing people up in the right hands. Tsubaki: Another relatively close range character, who charges a special guage to get access to 'powered up' versions of her special moves. Her mixup is kindof weak, however, and without charge her damage potential is kindof low. Needs to outplay her opponent to get the win and currently overshadowed by other 'rushdown' characters that don't require as much resource management to be effective. Valkenhayn: A high mobility/low mobility character - low mobility in human form, high mobility and strong mixup in a gauge-limited wolf form. Potentially very strong, but requires a good understanding of how to move around in wolf form and when to revert back to human to reach anything like his max potential.

... the heck does any of that have to do with the topic? o.o Uh, okay. Smitus; You might like Mitsuru - she's moderately rushdown and has strong normals, and she's a charge character, so she might feel familiar to you from playing Honda. Alternatively, either Chie or Akihiko might suit you well; Both of them are shorter ranged than Mitsuru, but Chie has a +frames jab and Akihiko has generally strong normals, but his mixup is a bit weak. You might also want to experiment with Teddie.

So what do you believe the purpose of loketests is then? It's certainly doesn't make much sense that they'd be some sort of "preview" so that the community can get a headstart on trying to figure out what the developers have changed. And even if it's not "balance" specifically (and to be truthful, signs point to loketests being at least -part- of the balancing process) certainly feedback from people actually playing the game is more useful than feedback from people trying to figure out frame data and move properties.

I can see why they would do this, if their primary objective at the loktest is to figure out what changes have been made. Which is probably what they want to do as part of the community. The developers need to realize that that is NOT, however, what THEY need from the loktest. The developers need feedback based on people PLAYING with the changes, not a bunch of guys screwing around trying to figure out if move X is still plus on block. And this would be super easy. All they need to do is PUBLISH a list of changes... and all of a sudden, it becomes the community's best interest to PLAY with those changes, since they don't need to waste the entire week trying to figure out what they are. And we wonder why the balance decisions in these games come out so screwy. It's because people aren't testing what the developers need them to test because the developers refuse to tell the testers what they want to know. -_-

Heh. Yeah. Watching some of the videos, it's like "are people playing both of these characters? Or is one guy just playing one, then switching sides and messing around with the other?" Wish Spinoza had been more public with his thoughts. Hopefully that questionnaire gave them plenty of room to get their point across.

This; I mean, pretty much nobody has enough of a local scene to get match experience against every character without doing some netplay, so bite the bullet and learn how to do it right.

Probably better than Extend, just as a result of having damage without Mugen, maybe not better than CS2. I'm still not convinced that the unblockable isn't a very serious loss, because her command grab sounds more like a utility option than serious mixup, unless they've changed the ability to follow up and get real damage off it. But yes, pure speculation right now since it doesn't seem like anyone who really KNOWS Tsubaki is playing at these loktests?

Why not just try everyone and see who clicks? It's not like there are that many characters, and it sounds like you've already ruled out like half of them.

Yu seems the obvious choice.

Dunno if this was noted yet or not, but I was watching the Tsubaki vs Platinum video - 2D can now be held all the way to 5 charges again. Though it seems awful slow. Hopefully it recovers faster.

Where is my "like" button for this post? Thank you.

I'm not a Hakumen expert here, but how is a move with 26 (6D) or 34 (2D) frames of recovery not punishable if baited? Certainly, I have never had trouble punishing these moves when I bait them, and I'm not exactly a high tier player. Or are you complaining that you can't "bait" these moves by autopiloting your projectile oki and then punishing by being too far away from him to hit you? Because that's a pretty bad definition of 'baiting'. Essentially, you are talking about hugely nerfing the functionality of a core portion of a character's gameplay because a small number of characters can't use one particular tool on him and are forced to play the wakeup game in the same way the rest of the cast does. That doesn't really breed sympathy from me. Those characters don't have some "right" to have tons stronger oki than the rest of the cast on every single character. But yes, we should definitely nerf everyone in the whole game so that no one ever gets upset about their matches. I'm sorry, but the game you are pushing for would be terrible. The end. Note: I'm not saying that the risk/reward on Hakumen's drive does or doesn't need adjusting (though I tend to lean towards "doesn't, because it really IS that punishable if you actually DO bait it.) but your proposal is excessive. Honestly, if you ask me, the only problem with Hakumen right now (i.e. "Why he is S tier") is just that he is too weighted on the reward side. His combos do tons of damage and tons of corner carry. Tone those down a bit and you have a perfectly fine character. Edit: Long post made short. This is not the place for this.

Here's the thing; How is this a problem? Essentially, what you are saying is "Hakumen's drive is bad because it means that some characters can't do the same thing they do against the rest of the cast." That same logic can be applied to Inferno Divider, Noel's Drive, Tager's GETB, pretty much Arakune's entire character, etc. The game is about having diverse characters, where you can't fight the same way against character X as you do against character Y. It's not Litchi's god-given right to be able to do stickman oki on the entire cast, anymore than it's Tager's right to fight his opponent at close range. Some characters just have tools that work better against certain opponents than against others. I don't think it's right or valuable to remove something that makes a character unique like this, particularly when the situations it generates are actually more interesting than "You MUST sit there and try to block my mixup that you can barely see because my attack is blocking your view of my character". It's not a question of whether making Hakumen have to block on wakeup "just like the rest of the cast" will "break" him, and more a question of "Why -shouldn't- there be a character who doesn't have to just suck it up and deal with brutal oki mixups?" There's really no reason I can understand that Hakumen shouldn't be able to do what he does. The only reason thus far provided is the extremely subjective "I don't like that I can't do my oki on Hakumen" complaint, and truthfully "I don't like that I can do X to character Y" is one of the worst game design arguments imaginable.

I'm with Osuna on this one - this post doesn't really seem to contain any value; The "3rd phase" essentially doesn't exist in fighting games - there are very few circumstances where you are -guaranteed- a loss and there's nothing you can do about it, and most of those circumstances only last a few seconds, the loss being guaranteed because there is no input you can make that will make a difference (in a combo with no burst, caught in some sort of tech trap or something that wil RESULT in you being in a combo momentarily). The descriptions of the other two phases...don't really provide any value either, because they don't give any information about how to get better at that phase, or how to prolong that phase, or, really, anything that might actually be construed as advice. It's fine if you want to claim that this is a strictly theoretical exercise, but even as a theory it's not very interesting, the post essentially makes the following points: #0: You need to know everything about your character and your opponent's character, or you're at a disadvantage. #1: It's easier to understand all the options when the match has just started #2: Once things get moving, the game gets complicated. #3: You want to get out of the "confusing phase" and into the "winning phase" as rapidly as possible. And I don't think you'll catch anyone arguing that any of those are particularly insightful points. I appreciate the effort, and I think these concepts could possible be developed into something with value, but this is basically fluff as written.