cadacus_ater

I'd like to add this for 2C FC (has to be done when opponent is at a start position, toward the nearest corner): 2C FC > 66 6C > DC > j.C > j.214A > (Delay) 6C > 623B > (Delay) 66 6C > 623C > 5B > 5C > 2C > HJC > j.D > AD > j.2C > j.C > 66 5B > 5C > 3C > 214A/214C (4273 or 4366/60 or 68) Re-EDIT: This combo only works reliably on ground hit, otherwise you can't connect the second 6C without launching them out of the corner. Extra Notes: If you are too close to the nearest corner, try reverting to the "Close to the Corner" 2C FC combo ...j.214A > Adjust 5C > 6C > 623B > stuff. If you are too close to the corner after j.214A, following with 6C will launch them out of the corner. I stated this combo must be done when opponent is at a start position because I was unable to get the wallbounce from j.214A if I was any farther away and if you are much closer to the corner you must change the combo as stated above.

I agree that it's not so much Jin's damage as his utility and flexibility that have been nerfed. They just made it take a little more effort to play well as Jin; his damage is still alright overall. I like the sound of a 5k 6B CH combo though

Ah touche. I need to stop telling myself I can never ever use 6C early in combos away from the corner; it screws up my attempts at optimum crouching and counter combos. It's not CS2 6C, but it's not useless away from corner either. Yes I have...

I had an easier time with it in CS2 to be honest I was just training against Valk cause I know his hitbox is stupid and I could do most of the DP loops with 5B pickup fairly well, but 6C>623B>66 6C>623C>5B is really hard for me to land on Valk in CS:EX. I have to be spot on if I don't want to either whiff 623C or fail 5B pickup. At least jD>AD>j2C>jC is starting to come back to me. Also I tried to come up with some meterless FC combos. They aren't breaking the 4.2k one xlolxlolx posted in the combo thread, but I was going for things that could work when not near the corner or when attacking somewhere between P1 and P2 start position. They could probably stand some optimizing, but this was all I had time for this weekend: Easy ground FC that works from anywhere: (FC)2C > 6B > 66 5B > 5C > mash C > 66 6C > 2D > 66 6B > 5B > 5C > 3C > 214C (3220 dmg, 46 heat) Decent damage and heat. Might be able to tweak this to get a little more damage, but I don't know how you could get much more than 3250 or so. Mid-screen, carry to corner (could use more development; might try replacing [66 5C>6C] with [66 623B>66 6C] for ~200 more damage): (FC)2C > 66 6C > dc > jC > 214A > 66 5C > 6C > 623C > 5B > 5C > jC > jD > air 214C (3720 dmg, ~44 heat)

Whether or not adding the extra 5C 6C lets you do 5B pickup, it will probably mess up the later part of the combo due to proration, making it either do less damage, provide weaker oki (make them recover in a manner that isn't as ideal for starting a new combo), or end early.

In the case of the combo you were discussing, the most common issue with 5B pickup is that it may not execute in time to hit the opponent on the way down. This is due to how far the opponent flies into the air, and for DP loops, the launch height and timing requirements are somewhat strict if you want to use 5B after 623C. As mentioned above, this is all influenced by proration, hitboxes, etc.

SRZ reminds me 623D loops were never really gone from CS1, just nerfed I still like CS:EX better than CS1 though. CS2 and CS:EX are kinda equal to me. Except for the Ice Arrow nerf, I'm cool with how everything balances out for Jin.

So I've been discovering how badly I've fallen out of practice with ...jD > AD > j2C > jC... and have been trying to see if I could find a good substitute for 5B > 5C > mash C > 5C > 2C > hjc j2C > jD > AD > j2C > jC > 66 5B > 5C > 3C > 214C I didn't have a chance to test this in training mode, but I've been wondering if 5B > 5C > mash C > 66 6C > 2D > 6B > mash C > 66 5C > (h)jc jC > djc j2C > 214C could work or not. If so, could I also tack on a 2C before the jC?

Can't wait for the weekend to buy Extend and try it for myself. Also I've come up with a pretty solid formula for 632146D that matches all the values I've been observing in videos so far within 10 damage. This makes my first working version of a combo calculator complete. For anyone who would like to try it, you should be able to download it here (if not let me know!): http://dl.dropbox.com/u/62357417/Jin%20Kisaragi%20Data%20with%20Combo%20Calculator%20v2.5.7%20%28First%20Release%29.xlsx EDIT: Updated the calculator to fix a few errors here and there.

Ah that's nice to know. Now the only thing left for me to figure out is how the in-game formula rounds damage and prorations for 632146D, which may not happen until I can do some specific tests. That or I catch a lucky break in my analysis. My current formula gives semi-decent results, but it has this odd section where it dips down to 650 or something, then jumps back up to around 680 before going back down to 600. Still tinkering with different ideas. I can't wait to start having fun with 214A wallbounce.

The value I've been observing for Ice Arrow minimum damage is 600, based on a couple videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QCcu2GbGDI#t=5m35s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hq48yJMFWw#t=14m55s So far I've been tinkering with this: 800*0.2 + 100*22*0.1 + 1100*0.2 = 160 + 220 + 220 = 600 It's based on this source http://www14.atwiki.jp/jinkisaragi/pages/111.html as well as a couple combos I couldn't get to work out without making this assumption such as the one following (which also happens to be the biggest problem for me in working out a formula accounting for how min damage is reached): j2C > jD > 5B > 5C > mash C > 6C > 632146D > 632146D 700 > 1174 > 1463 > 1776 > 2224 > 2475 > 3301 > 4033 (Calc with the ~700 min damage) 700 > 1174 > 1463 > 1776 > 2224 > 2475 > 3240 > 3885 (Test Calculation; working on the finished formula still...) 700 > 1173 > 1461 > 1773 > 2221 > 2471 > 3239 > 3883 (Obs) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXEexjxUZZY#t=2m4s Extra notes: My calculations are indicating prorations of around 24~25% after 6C and then around 17% after the first Hiyoku Getsumei. Notice however that the second Hiyoku is observed at 644 (indicating it hasn't reached min damage yet). This video seems to indicate either: (a) There may be some changes to the requirements for 632146D to hit min damage, i.e. min proration (b) I have an incomplete understanding of the formula still © A combination of (a) and (b)

My understanding says you will block an attack so long as you are holding 1 or 4 the instant before the attack connects. Upon a successful block, you may return to neutral while waiting for the attack to finish without taking damage. But after said attack finishes, you must input 1 or 4 again to block the next attack. If you do it too early you will normal block. Do it right before the attack and you will instant block. Do it too late and you will get hit. EDIT: Blocking multi-hit attacks I'm going to let someone else explain; I probably don't remember how blocking them works exactly. *** Regarding efforts to calculate 632146D damage, *finally reads Hiyoku Getsumei numbers on jp wiki* what the heck kind of contorted min damage is this?! 20% min dmg for arrow 1, 10% min damage for arrows 2-23, and 20% min damage for arrow 24. No wonder I had so much trouble with min damage. Aside from min damage, I think I've come really close, but I'm still having more error than I want. It's likely that the problem is due to me not nailing down the precise rounding methods used when applying proration. Here are a few combos that differ from predictions by over 1%: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJli9JQzMSE#t=11m37s 5B > 5C > mash C > 632146D (Difference of 12 damage) 504 > 943 > 1572 > 2757 (Calculated) 504 > 943 > 1572 > 2745 (Observed) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hq48yJMFWw#t=12m20s j.2C>5B>5C>mash C>6C>632146D (Difference of 17~18 dmg) 700 > 1062 > 1453 > 2013 > 2327 > 3283 (Calc) 700 > 1062 > 1453 > 2013 > 2328 > 3249 (Obs) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXEexjxUZZY#t=3m20s 5B(1)>5C>6C>632146D (Difference of 18~19 dmg) 350 > 789 > 1272 > 2737 (Calc) 350 > 789 > 1273 > 2719 (Obs) ****

The only thing stopping my calculator from being really accurate so far is blasted Hiyoku Getsumei. I can't for the life of me nail down the P1 and actual base damage of it. My guesses so far indicate that the last arrow may have been buffed slightly, but I can't confirm that for certain. It would be awesome if someone could tell me whether: a) Hiyoku is any different between console and arcade and/or system versions (like between v1.10 and v1.11) b) Opening Hiyoku does 2357 dmg

Seeing as pretty much all of Jin's proration and damage changes are accounted for now, if I did organize a new spreadsheet giving Jin's BBCS:EX move data (inputs, damage, p1, p2, heat gain, and perhaps frame data) with a built-in calculator, should I bother uploading it somewhere, and if so, what (free) site would you recommend [or should I send it to a mod]? The way I'm constructing it, all one would need to do in for most combo calculations is put in standard controller input notations into designated cells (excluding cancels such as intentional whiffs, dashes, jumps, or rapid cancels) and it would spit out prorations, damage values, and perhaps heat gain (though I doubt I'd bother accounting for heat gain reductions). It might have a little error here and there with certain combos and would not tell you explicitly when the combo would whiff, blue beat, or cause the opponent to auto-tech, but it would easily indicate what combo paths allow for optimized damage. Note: I don't know any changes in Jin's frame data beyond the level reduction of some of his aerials and that Sekkajin's untechable time was buffed by some amount (the exact value of this buff is unknown to me). Until I know that I'm planning on just using CS2 frame data and adding a few notes on where the frame data may have changed.

*** EDIT v.2 - In Addition, reverse solving for Hiyoku Getsumei's damage and proration is not so easy... At least I got the damage of arrows 1-23 and the total minimum damage correct Re-EDIT: I love it when I make stupid errors... I guess that's what I get for not streamlining my calculator...and wishing Jin's 2C FC combos weren't nerfed so much. P1 of 2C is 80% http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClkXh5uXHcs#t=9m12s *** I agree with everything quoted Notes: My understanding of Ice Arrow is that it applies its own proration values to all hits after the first arrow once (that is the resulting proration after using 632146D is applied to all arrows after the first arrow, unlike Ice Wave which applies an added 80% proration after each hit of the wave). It applies min damage whenever the minimum proration is reached. I'm not entirely sure I agree with their explanation of the min damage nerf, but it yields the same result as my estimates (160 + 20*22 + 0 = 600 vs my estimate of 120 + 15*22 + 150 = 600). Their min damage explanation is probably right though based on a couple videos I watched.

In the last round against Platinum I wanted to see him try an EX move > 632146C or something involving meter to end his last combo...instead of ice car C. I've wanted to see if Jin has some meter-burning mid-screen damage options that could net him a win in those situations, but I remain somewhat unsatisfied on that front.

Also looking at the match against komomo's Ragna, I feel more confident in my hypothesis of Hiyoku Getsumei's new, horribly nerfed, P2, min proration, and damage values from when Ren pulled off a Back_throw > Hiyoku: P2: 71, Damage: 800 + 100x22 + 1000, Minimum Proration: 15

So I felt like trying my hand at netplay again...and for once I seemed to hit a good evening with less lag than usual. However I noticed that I was somehow managing to RC twice in quick succession at seemingly random (and pointless) times...and I had considerable difficulty with dash cancels. At first I attributed it to nerves, then I finally looked at my PS3 controller in the light...to discover the lower-left quarter of the plastic rim keeping my left analog stick in its normal range of movement gone...which explained why certain movements seemed to cause my stick to "stick" and meant I was effectively done playing for the weekend....

It helps that Jin has a great set of tools at his disposal. I like having options for nearly any situation. But the original and purest reason I main, and will continue to main Jin is ice. I relish freeze effects, and Jin's drive gives them function and style. If I had more time to mess around I'd probably sub a few characters (Rachel, Hakumen, and now Relius come to mind), but as time is something I have precious little of, I prefer to learn one character more in depth.

When you press Triangle (Y on xbox?), iirc. It's one of the original palettes.

I'm salty whenever I see "Rebel 1" come out at 1/2 speed or slower in network mode...which is pretty much all the time cause I don't have a good connection for my console. It doesn't help either that I rarely get a chance of trying network outside of the weekend. So I'm usually practicing against CPU Hazama, since I regard him as the overall best cpu character to train against. I find Unlimited Hazama is also great for teaching you to BB in the air if you find yourself neglecting it. I like default blue usually...sometimes I'll pick black (purple ice is awesome), and rarely I'll pick white.

The 77% is P1*P2=77%, which is identical to what it is in CS2 (90%)*(86%)=77% From what I've looked at so far, that calculator is giving roughly the same proration and damage changes as the ones I'm getting...except for: - 214B(1)>214B(2) does not calculate it's P1 if you put it in the calculator alone, - The throws should have the same P2 (55) as CS2 instead of 49 - 623B P2 should be 92 (same as CS2), not 96 Ironically, the repeat proration does work for 214A (which is 20 lol) I finally figured out what was wrong with my Ice Wave calculations and determined that in CS:EX: - 632146C base damage reduced to ~700xN from 800xN in CS2 (N=number of hits) + 632146C min proration increased to 25 from 20 in CS2 This should be in agreement with the other calculator. I can't confirm as of yet if the P1 of 80 (80%*80%=64%) it indicates is correct though. Also I'm pretty sure I have Ice Arrow down for CS2 so I should be able to determine it in CS:EX...eventually. I'm almost certain they reduced the value of its minimum proration, but the damage appears to have changed too...and I'm not 100% sure if the proration didn't change either. Ice Arrow is a real pain to find even though I have 3 different combos I'm looking at: 5B>5C>632146D>632146D 504>943>2559>3686 (from current change list) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QCcu2GbGDI#t=5m35s Gold Burst>5C>2C>jD>j2C>jC>5B>2B>5C>3C>632146D>632146D 0>406>755>1075>1317>1532>1686>1792>1936>2047>2647>3247 (not positive on these last few values, but the video looks like the ones digit doesn't change after finishing each Ice Arrow, and by this time it should reach min proration) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps_LQWw9KHU#t=8m8s 6C>632146D>623C 920>3130>3805 (this one is giving me the most trouble it seems, it's either 3150 or 3130 after Ice Arrow I think, but I'm not getting the value for 623C right when I'm getting the other two around where they would work)

Here are the damage values for the combos mentioned earlier; again feel free to give corrections especially if I'm off by more than 5-10 damage: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ux10yHTmuQ#t=1m57s 6A>5C>6C>2D>6B>5B>5C 640>1005>1407>1687>1904>2067>2266 (CS2) 640>1057>1516>1837>2085>2272>2473 (CS:EX) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUNL__ph5KY#t=4m30s 2B>5B>5C>mash C>jC>j2C>jD>6C>214C(1)>214C(2) 450>722>1015>1436>1615>1767>1904>2040>2125>2233 (CS2) 450>758>1090>1571>1775>1957>2128>2298>2404>2539 (CS:EX) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QCcu2GbGDI#t=4m15s j2C>5B(1)>5C>5D 700>914>1287>1604 (CS2) 700>921>1346>1647 (CS:EX) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QCcu2GbGDI#t=6m jC>2D>6B>5B>5C>mash C>6C>214C(1)>214C(2) 700>1087>1387>1613>1857>2206>2402>2524>2679 (CS2) 700>1054>1328>1534>1757>2076>2255>2367>2509 (CS:EX) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QCcu2GbGDI#t=9m38s 5B(1)>5C>jB>j2C>jB>jC>jD 350>789>1073>1400>1614>1861>2083 (CS2) 350>789>1073>1389>1606>1847>2075 (CS:EX) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJli9JQzMSE#t=1m50s 2A>2B>5C>214B(1)>214B(2) 175>411>731>953>1213 (CS2) 265>498>819>1044>1304 (CS:EX) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJli9JQzMSE#t=2m42s 2D>6B>5B>2B>5C>mash C 712>1065>1331>1513>1760>2111 (CS2) 712>1064>1328>1508>1755>2107 (CS:EX) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJli9JQzMSE#t=3m17s jC>5B>5C>3C>214C(1)>214C(2) 700>1007>1339>1557>1770>2040 (CS2) 700>980>1284>1520>1713>1962 (CS:EX) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJli9JQzMSE#t=5m15s 5D>214D(1)>214D(2)>6C>623B>6A>3C>214A>3C>214A 710>1037>1451>1790>2088>2283>2437>2569>2685>2784 (CS2) 710>1039>1453>1791>2089>2284>2466>2598>2735>2754 (CS:EX) 710>1039>1453>1791>2089>2284>2466>2598>2735>2834 if 214A had no repeat proration http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJli9JQzMSE#t=7m5s 5B(1)>5C>3C>214B(1)>214B(2) 350>789>1078>1334>1634 (CS2) 350>789>1130>1386>1686 (CS:EX) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJli9JQzMSE#t=8m31s 5B(1)>5C>jA>jB>jA>j2C>jD 350>789>881>1114>1181>1401>1599 (CS2) 350>789>929>1161>1259>1471>1671 (CS:EX) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Oxtltl8EdE#t=12m12s 2D>6B>mash C>6C>214C(1)>214C(2) Does exactly the same damage in CS2 and CS:EX http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Oxtltl8EdE#t=13m20s jB>jA>jB>jC>jD>5A 540>652>935>1262>1555>1610 (CS2) - Checked in-game 540>704>977>1281>1568>1650 (CS:EX) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Oxtltl8EdE#t=14m50s Gold Burst>5C>623B>6C>6D>j2C>jC>5B>5C>3C>214D(1)>214D(2)>6C 0>405>841>1252>1538>1762>1953>2082>2223>2315>2406>2521>2615 (CS2) - Checked in-game 0>405>841>1252>1538>1762>1962>2104>2259>2379>2479>2605>2708 (CS:EX) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps_LQWw9KHU#t=7m50s 623C>5C>2C>j2C>jD 1300>1561>1786>1972>2139 (CS2) 1300>1561>1786>1978>2161 (CS:EX) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SspWqjzo1s8#t=3m23s 4+B+C>214A(whiff)>623B>2C>6C>623C>5A>5C>2C>623C 700>700>1056>1318>1603>1965>2009>2158>2286>2483 (CS2) - Might try testing with RC in place of 214A (whiff) 1300>1300>1656>1917>2214>2593>2664>2820>2954>3170 (CS:EX) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-rs_qcjTMY#t=9m50s B+C damage buff - 1300 from 700 in CS2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14OvSTTQNwQ#t=1m40s j+B+C remains the same as in CS2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As of Nov. 1, 2011 I still have work to do in accurately calculating 632146C and 632146D so I can't really touch on those yet (they are proving a pain in the butt to calculate)...

You have no idea how helpful you've been in my examination of Jin's CS2 to CS:EX changes by finding this video, and many others. Hats off to you sir, and to anyone who contributed to CS2 and CS:EX data as well As the errors in my calculator have reduced sufficiently for me to compare CS2 to CS:EX, I've been able to use a selection of combos from various videos to deduce proration and damage changes in a number of Jin's attacks. The proration and damage changes (if they did change) I haven't touched yet by these combos are for 623A/D, 236A/B/C/D, j236A/B/C/D, and all distortion drives. P2 and base damage of 214B I haven't found for absolute certain, but the results from the one combo I looked at with it suggest it is unchanged. Also, I haven't touched on P1 for 623B and 214A/B/C/D. If anyone feels the need to correct/check my calculations for CS2 via doing the combo in-game (when possible) feel free. Differences encountered between calculations and actual CS2 results in the accumulated damage at any point in the combo shouldn't be more than 5 damage in most cases, 10 sometimes is accepted, but it shouldn't be that high. Below are my results so far (updated Nov 1, 2011); videos and combos I used in determining them follow the results: + 5A, 2A & jA, base damages each increased by ~90 from CS2 + 6A P1 increased to around 79-80 (perhaps 79.9) from 70 in CS2 + 6A P2 did not change from CS2 (If 6A P2 did increase it is likely ~93 from 92 in CS2) + 2B P1 increased to around 79-80 (perhaps 79.5) from 70 in CS2 + 2B P2 shows no change from 86 in CS2 - jB P2 decreased to 86 from 89 in CS2 + 2C P2 increased to ~89 from 85 in CS2 + 3C base damage increased by ~100 from CS2 + jC & j2C P2 both increased to ~89 from 85 in CS2 - jC P1 decreased to 70 from 80 in CS2 (j2C P1 is unchanged from CS2) - 214A has a repeat proration of 20 in CS:EX + Forward and Back Throw damage increased to 1300 (600 more than CS2) + Sekkajin proration seems unchanged based on damage, perhaps attack level or untech time was buffed (Sekkajin comment is purely speculation for the moment) NOTE: These observations are subject to change by newly observed combos or system patches. Combos listed without cancel or counter notation; ice car B/C/D 2nd hit is treated separately; 5B=5B(2). Comparisons with CS2 assumed no resets occur - calculator was used in finding CS2 damage for most cases. CS:EX combos used in determining the data thus far are found in the following video references. 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ux10yHTmuQ#t=1m57s 6A>5C>6C>2D>6B>5B>5C 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUNL__ph5KY#t=4m30s 2B>5B>5C>mash C>jC>j2C>jD>6C>214C(1)>214C(2) 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QCcu2GbGDI#t=4m15s j2C>5B(1)>5C>5D 4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QCcu2GbGDI#t=6m jC>2D>6B>5B>5C>mash C>6C>214C(1)>214C(2) 5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QCcu2GbGDI#t=9m38s 5B(1)>5C>jB>j2C>jB>jC>jD 6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJli9JQzMSE#t=1m50s 2A>2B>5C>214B(1)>214B(2) 7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJli9JQzMSE#t=2m42s 2D>6B>5B>2B>5C>mash C 8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJli9JQzMSE#t=3m17s jC>5B>5C>3C>214C(1)>214C(2) 9. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJli9JQzMSE#t=5m15s 5D>214D(1)>214D(2)>6C>623B>6A>3C>214A>3C>214A 10. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJli9JQzMSE#t=7m5s 5B(1)>5C>3C>214B(1)>214B(2) 11. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJli9JQzMSE#t=8m31s 5B(1)>5C>jA>jB>jA>j2C>jD 12. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Oxtltl8EdE#t=12m12s 2D>6B>mash C>6C>214C(1)>214C(2) Does exactly the same damage in CS2 and CS:EX 13. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Oxtltl8EdE#t=13m20s jB>jA>jB>jC>jD>5A 14. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Oxtltl8EdE#t=14m50s Gold Burst>5C>623B>6C>6D>j2C>jC>5B>5C>3C>214D(1)>214D(2)>6C 15. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps_LQWw9KHU#t=7m50s 623C>5C>2C>j2C>jD 16. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SspWqjzo1s8#t=3m23s 4+B+C>214A(whiff)>623B>2C>6C>623C>5A>5C>2C>623C 17. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-rs_qcjTMY#t=9m50s B+C damage buff (same as 4+B+C) - 1300 from 700 in CS2 (kinda obvious, but noteworthy) 18. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14OvSTTQNwQ#t=1m40s j+B+C remains the same as in CS2 (again, kinda obvious, but noteworthy) As of Nov. 1, 2011 my results indicate all Jin's other moves in CS:EX should be unchanged in damage and proration from CS2 unless they are listed otherwise in here http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?12561-BBCS-Extend-change-list. EDIT: I have omitted the damage comparisons I did for every attack in the combos mentioned to keep the post shorter. If desired, I will show these comparisons in a separate post with their respective combos (should be here: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?12360-MUSOU...SENSHOUZAN...Jin-General-Thread/page20). I'm not planning on double posting

Hmm, I guess this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ux10yHTmuQ&list=PLE476E4BAFE6D9274&index=84&feature=plpp_video#t=13m41s was from Yukikaze expiring then. Can't be throwing it out carelessly, that's for sure.