Shoto

@ GB & DW Can you two post the damage of your ID?^^ My ID combo from the opening post does 187dmg vs. Sol (I could dash and go for another rep but then Sol won't end grounded as he can recover from the final rensen [198dmg in that case]).. to lazy to try all the stuff out^^. If the damage of one of your combos is better and still gets the opponent grounded I will of course switch to that one (even that I hardly land a 5D in a match). @ DW Hm.. I'm a bit sceptical if giving up a combo so early for an airthrow is worth it. If I simply finish the Dust combo my opponent is grounded and I have done full damage. If I allow him to tech as when I air throw him (and don't forget we have throw tech now) I should get less damage out of the whole thing. So the question is if the corner crossup opportunity is worth that, which sure is arguable^^.

short update in the first post.. a short paragraph on baiting reversals.. needs to be polished, will do that when I finally found the time and wrote up all the stuff that is still missing.. Nevertheless tell me your ideas on baiting; let's get a discussion going^^.

Wacky.. the frame data says the tap 2 follow up gives more frame disadvantage then the rensen itself.. and I shouldn't get punished by Fausts S(f) (I would have sworn it does!!).. have to do some testing..

another wacky oki variation: 2P (next to opponent), UB [feint], throw leads to B-Loops against cornered opponents, but as said before: not safe..

It isn't.. but a JI shouldn't affect being air thrown or not^^.

No, I think I did something like 3P, 5H, 63214S but my opponent failed a few times (I spammed 63214S to check out what my opponent could do if I did it after 5H) where I hit him in the air (while after a 3P or a S© he has no problem doing it if he expects it).. so maybe it's too hard and thus too risky.. nevertheless we tried it again in practice where he could do it 3 times in a row.. but maybe it's a distance thing as he said the nearer the move is when he would hit the easier it is for him to air throw as he just has to jump up.. Still I agree with you that it's safer to do a 63214S after a 5H than after any other blocked normal^^.

This is not completely true (found it out this weekend the hard way :P).. If your opponent just holds up after he blocked the 5H he will be able to air throw you (at least Chipp could do it (3 Frames of jump startup afaik), so maybe charas with more startup on their jumps can't); it just gets a bit harder.. Nevertheless since you can also go into 2D your opponent could need too much time to figure out what move you are going for you it could get impossible (haven't yet tested if it can be done on reaction), nevertheless if he just expects that move and is taking the risk (which is quite high since you can combo from 2D) many charas are able to airthrow you even in that situation.

never doubted that ^^

@ Watches Hope you took no offence.. I like that you are an active poster (and your Axl is said to have some value^^) and have your own view, but so have I^^. ..but really one thing I have to say that needs to get into every players mind: After you know your stuff getting better is not about adding new stuff.. it becomes about taking risky stuff out and re-exploring stuff.. (this goes actually to all not to Watches in specfic^^) Knowing the mind of the opponent is an important skill, but it will never be so good that you can throw in risky stuff because you know what your opponent is doing next (of course you do all to bait them into something or try to makes things unattractive for them).. So minimize your risk (as long as your not forced to risk something as the match is terribly not going your way). Look trough Japanese matchvids.. tell me how often you see "random" risky stuff.. @ GB: ah right, you mean safe jumps.. completely forgotten about them (just know them from ST) :P.. nevertheless while the recovery of your jumping normal is cancelled, isn't there an own landing recovery that every jump has? If not you wouldn't get thrown every time you do an empty jump in.. (but if you say this recovery is short enough to block again I of course believe you^^') ---------------- Nevertheless.. some of my once in a while okis.. use with care and know that I recommend none of them and use them very seldom for myself (and somehow I feel dirty posting them :P): whiffed rensen, tap 2.. The rensen whiffs, but the tap2 follow up hits meaty or near meaty.. best use this against charas who have no real way of punishing it (I guess there are more who can't then who can and even those only should get a single poke).. but I use it realy never since it gets blocked by all the good players and against the weaker I don't need such stuff :P. If they where cornered the follow up will vacum them out, allowing crossups like jumping over them, Bomber.. again not too great but well.. this thread seems to be about such stuff.. 2P (next to opponent), Unblockable For some reaons this works quite well even against good players (at least if the 2P hits).. use it very seldom and be aware of the risk.. using the feint is useless in this range as they won't jump but simply poke you out of it if they realise the blue light.. and do 2P, rensen as mixup to it.. it combos in that range and if they expect such stuff (honestly there is nothing else you can do as 63214S won't hit them if you do it that near. ..against cornered opponent: 2P (quite near), 63214S.. well in this case it hits as the wall won't let you get away :P, and since the second hit of 2P vacuums them out of the corner it will even hit as crossup. Of course you can mix it up with the 2P, Unblockable as well.. If you think that your lucky day is even luckier, do 2P right next to them, then throw after the second hit.. and it has been mentioned somewhere, but I guess not in this thread: a TK Bomber that just whiffes (quite hard to judge if it will still hit or whiff if you are getting up), then throw. and ok.. I though about this.. there is one matchup in which I tend to use 623P as oki: vs. INO.. she has this overdrive that works well as wakeup reversal and gives her frame advantage and has quite some range.. so it is normally quite a good choice.. If she has 50% tension keep out of fast poke range (but near enough that it looks like you want to attack but try to look aggressive (run forward for example).. if the super hits you win.. even gets you a CH if I remember it right.. and it doesn't get you punished if she does just block since no fast normal will reach you in time :P

a short update in the defense and dealing with uppercutters part..

Axl is not really an oki chara.. It doesn't matter how he gets the frame advantage after that he has some options.. There are only a few things that really only apply to oki situations.. so for Axl okizeme basically means baiting players into doing the wrong thing and avoiding dragon punches. Except that it is mainly a chance to start rushing.. So I disagree with some stuff in this thread.. Don't take it personal, it's just that many options either lead to nothing except your opponent wont even hold his feet still on wakeup (in which cast just everything will work and that nor due to your great gameplan but due too the stupidness of your opponent :P) or is just to risky (especially if you face an opponent who holds his feet still on wakeup^^). Playing it safe is the first rule.. we have beginners in this forum, don't give them the wrong ideas^^. the stuff mentioned: No catches as oki.. neither 623P nor the 214 catches.. If someone is so dump to constantly reversal than just block and punish. We are talking about an option where your opponent just has to do absolutely nothing and will get rewarded with free damage while he has to do something very risky for your to score with a catch. OD on wakeup? Well it goes through an awful lot of things but it wastes half 50% tension if it doesn't and gets your ass kicked.. and that in a game where in most cases blocking is the best option on wakeup.. sure if you have an enemy that mashes wakeup supers or just throws anytime you are near him or can't hold his feet still it may work.. but against such players you should win anyway^^. j.2S and rensen FRC.. This as oki? This is special stuff that allows you to build up pressure against an "moving enemy" that tries to hit you as well. You don't need to do that on Wakeup :P.. and even that j.2S is an overhead.. if a players jumps as oki everybody will block high for at least the first hit. 6H: This one is ok It is great if you need to cover some distance after you grounded your opponent, but only if they have no good reversal. Furthermore if you have the time to let it completely whiff it works quite well as a reversal bait.. but the throw bait stuff fires back more often than it succeeds, so forget about that usage. 2H: Has some use as long range okizeme option.. but who doesn't block low on wakeup? Does Axl have this unbelievable fast or invisible overhead I don't know of? It may catch them if you expect a backdash (usually this will only happen if your opponent sees that you don't have the time for a perfect meaty) but you can't combo from it as they are considered airborne while BDing.. 3P, S(f) and 5H don't do anything for themselves.. they are only useful in combination with what follows after.. and these options are covered in the rushdwon thread btw. :P. Raeisageki (H) Is best done after a KD so well yeah it is an oki only option. Can be used as cross up and fake cross up so it has it uses.. just the 50% tension is a little drawback. Raeisageki (S) Against charas with no reversal this is quite nice if done from running as many look out for a 6H which may be your only meaty option if you grounded them from a distance. Nevertheless on wakeup most players will react on you, i.e. use all their concentration on what you do.. so it generally is something you won't succeed with. Then a non cross up Raeisageki (S) will leave you in a huge disadvantage.. the risk is just to high in my eyes. The Jump Installed sound quite good^^.. should try it out myself^^.. j.H? cross up? reversal safe? Please explain.. I somethimes use j.H, Bomber as a primitive frame trap and for gaining frame advantage (but thats not oki only)

Ok, this is the translation of a German translation from a short Tougeki Damashii article that mentions a few tierlist changes (thanks to "Weisskreuz" from our Geman community board for the Japanese to German translation^^). Sadly there is no new list and I have no Idea on which list these changes refer too (or if there even was a definite list to refer to :P). ------------------ Until now Eddie, Baiken and Testament were considered S Class, followed by Jam, Sol, Pot, Slayer and May. Thanks to the PSII Version which allowed playing and experimenting at home there were some changes in the ranks: Characters that gone up: Slayer is now 3rd place after Eddie and Testa; Pot gone up to the Top Characters. Furthermore Jam, ABA, Chipp, Anji and Venom have gone up in the list too. Characters that gone down: Baiken gone done a little bit as well as May, Dizzy and Axl. Reasons given: Pot: If slidehead hits he can control the flow of the match very well. "Gaiganticbritt" -> "aerial Potemkinbuster" is a threat, raising his abare potential. Jam: better Okizeme ABA. Some "Power" or "Force" has gotten better (problems with translation) ..maybe they refer to her mohora mode.. Chipp, Anji, Venom: Better combos Baiken: No reason given, maybe just got down due to other charas getting up^^ May: Her tactics are now more explored, making her less a thread. Furthermore as only few people play her she gets not that much explored.. Axl, Dizzy (again problems with translation) something about them having a bad defence..

@ Blazer Well find your own way, all what is written in the forums is just some sort of second oppinin and can't make up for matchmovie analysis and first hand VS experience^^. Well yeah, the DAA only hits high (= every crouching attack will doge it), which means you have to use it at the right places (anti air being on of them^^, but as well moves with deal high blockstun and pressure string where you know that the next move in a gatling / pressure string is high). Nevertheless id say 80% of my DAAs hit (counting in opponents as Chipp which have a lot of ways to counter, bait or avoid DAAs), not counting in the ones where my opponent threw me or worked around it with crossup stuff as he exspected me to do the DAA, which in a way are failed DAAs as well (even that I didn't lose the tension). FD is always an option, especially for Axl, but it does not serve the same "purpose" as a DAA does.. Axl has generally worse defensive options than many other charas, but therefore he has more.. so you just have to "explore" all of them (and still have to rely more on blocking then many other charas) to stand a chance. I don't say DAA is the first thing you should do if you have 50% tension and are pressured, but I say it is a valid option in it's own right (and yes I would say it is usually way better than OD attempts; but I haven't considered IB, OD until now.. but isn'st that even more situational than the DAA? [especially since the input takes much more time]).

@ Blazer from the 4 times you did a catch as okizeme, that Sol only hat enough meter to RC once :P.. If you want to be safe from VV RC then go for long range okizeme, start with moves outside of VV range.. even if they get a limp hit they won't be able to combo if they RC and it should discourage them to VV anyway as if you just hesistate for a few frames so that your attack is slightly not meaty he will be open for anything you have. 2H or 2 P is quite good.. even 3P if you time and space it right (here you can even try to make it a bit too early so that it won't even hit, but its hitbox will be out of range when he does a reversal VV so it will whiff). .. and don't rely on the OD.. if they get hit in most of the cases it was because they where careless.. (there are a few sitautions where it can be done on reaction, but many of your uses where pure guesses.. If you want a defensive measure for 50% Tension use your DAA.. just try it out.. much safer, much more accurate and if they fall for the super they will fall for the DAA as well (less damage, sure [exept you get the wall bounce] but therefore much safer. (I recommend doing a DAA with P+K as with this you still get a 6P if you shouldn't be in hitstun and this is the fastest move Axl can "option select" his dead angle with). ..and for those of you that still get away even with a blocked OD Tell your opponent to block the first part, then jump and start with a jump in attack.. Nevertheless right now I think all you need are players that are a good chunk better then you to get the unsafe stuff out of you, all the rest is there^^.

Another contribution, yay^^.. Well you have the idea and are on the right way, but: - generally play safer.. If you decide to block you actually do it very good, but there are many situations where you can't hold your feet still even that it is obvious you have the disadvantage. - No 214 catches in short range.. if you want to use a counter go for the 623P; and even than consider if there is not a different less risky option (or be sure your opponents only good option is a high hitting move). - No catches on Wake up against uppercutters.. even if you await a Volcanic Viper, blocking would allow you to go for a more damaging combo and is much safer.. - Your dust and rashousen setups where always the same. while I don't blame you for that as your opponent didn't seem able to react to them I just wanted to make sure that you know that a player more used to them would kill for that :P. - As Watches already said, a few days with the combo thread (for now just the basics not the wacky stuff^^) and practice mode would help your game a lot^^. Basically nearly all of Axls gameplay seems to be there and just needs to get better^^.. So if you got the chance try to play against players that are a good part better than you (but do not totally dominate you) do get rid of the unsafe stuff^^.

kk^^ thanks .. did that before we had tranlated frame data:P

added some random stuff for the keep away part.. will come up with something better as soon as I find the time (which could take a while).. nevertheless maybe we can use those bits and bytes to get a discussion going^^

Well yeah, another combo question^^.. What combo should I follow up with if I score a hit with 214D? If my opponent is cornered or I do the move right next to him (what usually gets me killed :P) I can go into her SVD loop, but in any other case I'm just too far away.. so should I limit my use to cornerd opponents only or is there a good midscreen combo that even hits from some range?

..as I see it very seldom in matchvids I thought I asked here^^. How am I supposed to use the Jackhound (214D)? Are there any good ways to set it up? Or is the whole move that useless that Í should save the tension for other stuff (actually right now I manly use tension on FB HD to go in the VD loop from a sweep).

@ Quickman Thank you.. @ Pulsr This list is very helpful, thanks^^ just a question: If you write: (3) P VD Does this mean I can do: [s©, 5H, SVD] x3, 5P, SVD? It’s just that in matchvids I usually only see [s©, 5H, SVD] x2, 5P, SVD against standard weights, so I wondered.. and do the loops leave your opponent grounded afterwards?

Ok.. I didn’t realize I could start the loop with a SVD thanks^^.. works just fine as long as I charge down as soon as I input the dust.. but I have no Idea what you mean by JI SVD. Whatever it is it seems to work without it.. or am I doing something special without even knowing it? :P Could you please explain how this kind of Jump install is supposed to work (and how I have to input it)?^^

Hi guys.. just want to give May a try^^ So some questions I couldn't figure out on myself right now.. What's the best combo to follow up a "delayed dust" (the one that hits low)? You obiously can't go into her VD loop .. but I haven't yet seen any traditional air combo in the matchvids I watched.. and a second question: what are good openers for her VD loop? These are the ones I know of right now: OHK (2K,) 2D, FB VD j.2H, 2D, FB VD Right now it seems to me that she does a good amount of damage on the fly but has not too many options to land her strong combos.. (but I haven't yet had the chance to watch too many matchvids) btw.: for the FB Dolphin stuff.. can you hit confirm it at some point or can you even just do it and go on with pressure if your oppoentns blocks it?

got a new method of doing TKs from a Baiken player: 6321473H.. my favourite input right now^^. Low and reliable^^.

Just saw an Axl Player on A-Cho which used a simmilar combo vs Anji: 5K, 2D, Rensen FRC, dash, 6H, 5K, S©, 2S, SJC, j.H, j.D, koku

Finally figured out my problem with the meaty Rashousen after slide.. there actually is a get up animation right after the slide which is the same as from a normal knockdown.. if you try to input the Rashousen while this animation is going all you will get is a 6H.. damn can't believe that took me so long to figure out (especially since that meant I always tried to do the rashousen too late for a meaty anyway..)