Primiera

Hey, does anyone know 214CD (FC) optimal oki and damage enders? It doesn't seem to give a lot of juggle opportunity compared to 214D. Best I've got for oki is 5B > 5C > 5AB.

5C (CH) > 2A > 5AA > 5B > 2B > 2AB (0%@1,909) - mid-screen standard oki ender. 5C (CH) > 5B > 5C > 236B > 5AA > 5B > 2B > 2AB (0%@2,660, crouchers only) - mid-screen oki ender on crouchers. 5C (CH) > 5B > 5C > 2B > 5B > 236A > 236A > 236C (0%@3,020) - mid-screen meterless damage. 5C (CH) > 5B > 5C > 236B > 236B > 236D (0%@3,442, crouchers only) - mid-screen meterless damage on crouchers. 5C (CH) > 5B > 5C > 2B > 236A > 236A > 236236A > dash 5C > 236B > 236B > 236D (50%@4,184) - mid-screen Super combo. 5C (CH) > 5B > 5C > 2B > 236A > 236B > 236236A > dash 5C > 236B > 236B > 236D (50%@4,306, crouching only) - mid-screen Super combo on crouchers. 5C (CH) 2A > 5AA > 5B > 5C > 2B > 2C > 5B > 2AB (0%@2,609) - corner oki combo. 5C (CH) > 5B > 5C > 2B > 2C > 236B > 5AA > 5B > 5C > 2B > 2C > 5B > 2AB (0%@3,536, crouchers only) - corner oki combo on crouchers. 5C (CH) > 5AA > 5B > 5C > 2B > 2C > 5B > 236A > 236A > 236C (0%@3,310) - corner meterless damage. 5C (CH) > 5B > 5C > 2B > 2C > 5B > 236A > 236B > 5C > 236B > 236B > 236C (0%@3,982, crouchers only) - corner meterless damage combo on crouchers. 5C (CH) > 5B > 5C > 236A > 236A > 5B > 5C > 236B > 236B > 5B > 5C > 214C > 236236D (50%@4,929) - corner Super combo. 5C (CH) > 5B > 5C > 2B > 2C > 5B > 236A > 236B > 5C > 236B > 236B > 214D > 236236D (50%@5,096, crouchers only) - corner Super combo on crouchers. 214CD (CH) > 5B > 5C > 5AB (25%@2,139) - oki ender, works anywhere. 214CD (CH) > 5B > 5C > JB > JC > JBB > JC > 236C (25%@3,261) - damage ender, works anywhere. 214CD (CH) > 5C > 236B > 236B > 5C > 236B > 236B > 236236D (75%@4,474) - corner Super combo. Throw (CH) > 2A > 5C > 5AB (0%@1,784) - oki ender, works anywhere. Throw OMC > 2A > 5C > 5AB (50%@1,664) - oki ender, works anywhere. Not really useful. Throw OMC > 5C > 236B > 236B > 5C > 236B > 236B > 236236D (100%@4,134) - Super ender, near corner/corner only.

"214D (FC) > JC > JB > 5C > 44 5C > 66 5B > 5C > 2D > J7D > 236B > 236B > 214C > 236326D (50%@5174)" I find I'm really inconsistent with this combo. Usually I yellow combo at the 66 5B, and almost always at J7D if not. Any advice for the timing? I suspect I'm doing JC too early or late. For now, I do: 214D (FC) > 5B > 5C > 44 5C > 66 5B > 5C > 2D > J7.5D > 236B > 236B > 214D > 236236D (50%@5139) at 100% consistency. I figure I'll almost never lose a match because I came 35 damage short

Is there any use for or way to combo into Chie's instant kill, outside of punishing really bad DPs?

214D (FC) > 5B > 5C > 44 5C > 66 5B > 5C > 2D > JD > 5AB (0%@3,270) - near corner/corner oki ender, easy version. 214D (FC) > JC > JB > 5C > 44 5C > 66 5B > 5C > 2D > JD > 5AB (0%@3,320) - near corner/corner oki ender, slightly harder version. 214D (FC) > 5B > 5C > 44 5C > 66 5B > 5C > 2D > J7.5D > 236B > 236B > 214D > 236236D (50%@5139) - near corner/corner Super ender, easy version. 5AB-D (FC) > 2B > 5C > 66 5B > 5C > 236B > 236B > 5C > 5AB (0%@2987) - optimal overhead oki ender. 2B (AA) > JC > JBB > J.8D > 5AB (0%@1,866) - mid-screen and corner oki ender. 2B (AA) > JC > JBB > J.8D > 236B > 236B > 214D > 236236D (50%@4,013) - near corner/corner Super combo. JB (AA+CH) > 5B > 5C > JC > JBB > J8D > 5AB (0%@2460) - possibly optimal JB (CH) oki ender, more testing needed. JB (AA+CH) > 5B > 5C > JC > JBB > J8D > 236B > 236B > 214C > 236236D (50%@4442) - possibly optimal JB (CH) damage mid-screen, more testing needed, but it's better than the current one. JB (AA+CH) > 5B > 5C > JC > JBB > J8D > 236B > 236B > 214D > 236236D (50%@4543) - possibly optimal JB (CH) damage near corner, more testing needed. JBB > 5B > 5C > 2B > 2C > 236A > 236A > 5B > 5C > 236B > 236B > 214D > 236236D (50%@4,906) - optimal JBB damage without crouching in the corner. JBB > 5B > 5C > 2B > 2C > 5B > 236A > 236B > 5C > 236B > 236B > 214D > 236236D (50%@4,973, crouchers only) - optimal JBB damage with a crouch confirm in the corner. JC (CH) > JB > 5AA > 5B > 2B > 2AB (0%@1932) - oki ender mid-screen. JC (CH) > JB > 5AAA > 236B > 5AA > 5B > 2B > 2AB (0%@2,441) - oki ender mid-screen with crouch confirm. JC (CH) > JB > 5AA > 5B > 2B > 236A > 236A > 236C (0%@2,775) - mid-screen meterless damage ender. JC (CH) > JB > 5B > 5C > 236A > 236B > 236D (0%@3399, crouchers only) - mid-screen meterless damage ender with crouch confirm. JC (CH) > JB > 5B > 2B > 236A > 236A > 236236A > dash 5C > 236B > 236B > 236D (50%@4,167) - mid-screen super ender. JC (CH) > JB > 5B > 5C > 236A > 236B > 236236A > dash 5C > 236B > 236B > 236D (50%@4,363, crouchers only) - mid-screen Super combo with crouch confirm. Needs immediate crouch confirm for the 5C to combo into 236A. JC (CH) > JB > 5B > 5C > 2B > 236A > 236A > 5B > 5C > 5AB (0%@2810) - optimal corner JC oki. JC (CH ) > JB > 5B > 5C > 2B > 2C > 236B > 5AA > 5B > 5C > 2B > 2C > 5B > 2AB (0%@3,714, crouchers only) - optimal corner JC oki with crouch confirm. JC (CH) > JB > 5B > 5C > 2B > 2C > 5B > 236A > 236A > 236C (0%@3,401) - optimal corner meterless combo. JC (CH) > JB > 5B > 5C > 2B > 2C > 5B > 236A > 236B > 5C > 236B > 236B > 236C (0%@4,124, crouchers only) - corner meterless combo with crouch confirm. JC (CH ) > JB > 5B > 5C > 2B > 2C > 236A > 236A > 5B > 5C > 214C > 236236D (50%@4576) - optimal corner JC super combo. JC (CH ) > JB > 5B > 5C > 2B > 2C > 5B > 236A > 236B > 5C > 236B > 236B > 214D > 236236D (50%@5238, crouchers only) - optimal corner JC super combo with a crouch confirm. 5B (CH) > 2D > 66 5B > 2B > 5C > JC > JBB > J.8D > 5AB (0%@3,657) - oki punish combo, works mid-screen and corner. 5B (CH) > 2D > 66 5B > 5C > JC > JBB > J.8D > 236B > 236B > 236C (0%@4,527) - meterless punish combo, works mid-screen and corner. 5B (CH) > 2D > 66 5B > 5C > JC > JBB > J.8D > 236B > 236B > 214C > 236236D (50%@5,528) - Super punish combo, works mid-screen and corner. 5B (CH) > 2D > 66 5B > 5C > JC > JBB > J.8D > 236B > 236B > 214D > 236236D (50%@5,629) - Super punish combo, corner/near corner only. Credit to ZomB for posting these new optimal 5B punishers!

I tested it, not out of doubt of the results, only to confirm it in a test that ensured there wasn't a block-string. Same scenario, 2A > delayed 5A on a crouching Mitsuru, though I stood closer to her. On hit, it combo'd. On block, both hits connected obviously and there was a gap so as to allow a reversal, at which time B+D would activate and get blocked by Chie. If there are 3 active frames as Dusk said, then the recovery of 5A should be 5 frames. 5A should have 5 start-up + 3 active + 5 recovery, which equals 12 total frames (first active frame is the last start-up frame).

Exactly. The main problem is that according to his tests, Akihiko's 8F DP hits, so if it turns out there's no gap between 2A > 5A, it stands to reason that 9F DPs would also hit if a proper 1F gap were there. I'm trying to pause the video to find a point where it clearly shows 5A's active frame or the DP start-up is there first, but I can't find a frame where it doesn't look like both are active at the same time, and I can't find a frame before that where either is active.

That's not actually proof (not saying the results are necessarily wrong though). What happens there is you're chaining 2A > 5A, but you're whiffing, and in fact there's a good chance you can only reversal B+D with Mitsuru well after Chie's 5A is out and probably recovering already. The proper proof would be a recording that hits Mitsuru if she blocks/doesn't block, and blocks a reversal B+D, preferably via a meaty 5A from a throw setup or via the gatling method discussed above.

That's not entirely correct. If there's only a 1F gap or whatever between the jabs, that's the start-up number you'll use in calculating duration. Say you do 5A > 5A, and the opponent is able to mash right before the second 5A hits; it's essentially meaty, so you don't take the entire start-up. I will say that I'm pretty sure 5A's 1F + active frames + recovery is less than the 8 or 9 frames a non-counter DP has. Here are the DP start-ups: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?14878-P4A-s-Training-Mode-%28Frame-Data-Related%29&p=1378679&viewfull=1#post1378679 Labrys- 25 Mitsuru- 9 Aigis- 8 Yikiko- 22 Yu- 9 Ahikiko - 8 Slabby- 14

I've seen that, pretty sure it's a swag combo used to finish opponents off rather than optimal damage over the 236A > 236A > 214D > 236236D ender.

If you're able to block 9+ frame DPs, it's not really a frame trap or constant pressure anymore, though with the JC, 5A > 66 5A, and 214D frame traps it can be really scary to mash normals. This type of pressure is more for high level play when opponents almost never mash normals except for a read.

http://www.dustloop.com/guides/p4arena/hitbox/Narukami/bc251_03.png http://www.dustloop.com/guides/p4arena/hitbox/Chie/ce231_03.png Yu's j.B out-ranges Chie's 2B horizontally, so it can beat it. At the applicable range 2B will beat it. 214C+D is armored, into a Fatal Counter on CH, so you can try that. Also, Chie's 5C out-ranges Yu's 5B and 2B, so if he's poking predictably you can stand at your max range and CH 5C them into a full combo. That's far from a consistent answer though, the difference is 5C is plain slower to start-up and recover than Yu's moves and if you both keep trying them he'll eventually jump or Evasive Action to give a true punish combo.

In terms of combos, there are a lot of crouch only hit-confirms you'll want to practice, mainly off of j.BB. Mid-screen you can do 5AAA > 236B > 5AA > 5B > 2B > 2AB as an oki-ender, 5B > 2B > 5C > 236A > 236B > 236D for meterless damage, and any 236A/B > 236B > 66 5C > dash 5A > 5C > 214C > 236236D for Super ender on crouchers. In the corner: JBB > 5B > 5C > 2B > 2C > 236B > 5AA > 5B > 5C > 2B > 2C > 5B > 2AB (0%@3374, Crouchers only) JBB > 5AA > 5B > 5C > 2B > 2C > 236A > 236B > 5C > 236B > 236B > 214D > 236236D (50%@4,728, crouchers only) You're losing almost 1K damage on both of those combos if you opt for non-croucher combos. Luckily it's easy to crouch confirm just off of the JBB, and in the case of the second combo, you can do everything exactly the same except go into 236A > 236A > 214D > 236236D for roughly 4K damage. Make sure to add empty jump 2A > 5B > 5C to your mix-ups in the corner, and empty jump 2A > 5B > 2B to your mix-ups mid-screen. If you always go high you'll be in trouble when you get people who catch on, or people who refuse to block low until blocking (these people are out there). 2A shakes them up, makes them want to guess low for the next time. I'm unsure if those combos you listed are off of JBB, but if they aren't you shouldn't be hitting those corner combos raw, as in terms of punishing 5B (CH) > 2D is far better. Don't end combos in 236C unless you have to, there are basically two general enders to combos, 2/5+AB and 236236D (outside of Power Charge and throw OMC 236D enders and the like), unless your opponent's character can mess with oki options.

What's the trick to knowing when to do 2B > JBB or 2B > JB > JC? Height dependent?

JBB > 5AA > 5B > 5C > 2B > 2C > 236A > 236B > 5C > 236B > 236B > 214D > 236236D (50%@4,728, crouchers only) A better corner combo than the one I listed a few posts ago. 5DD > 5B > 5C > 2B > 2C > 236A > 236B > 5C > 236B > 236B > 214D > 236236D (50%@4,681, crouchers only) AFAIK optimal damage in the corner if you opponent gets hit by 5DD.

I made a post in the Chie vs. Aigis thread, no response. I'm having a lot of trouble with JC being so air dominant, and not being able to stop mid-range Orgia Mode advances on reaction with anything but Chie's B+D, and the occasional 5B at the right angle.

I'm not an expert by any means, but I'd say she's just out of top tier. She's a really good character, with a BRUTAL oki game and really good strings/pressure, but her footsies are pretty situational and she's outclassed in that regard by the truly top tier characters Mitsuru, Yu, and Aigis, and plenty of other characters around her same league like Teddie and Yosuke. Chie has what it takes to win any match, a tool for almost any situation, yet I feel she has a good portion of bad match-ups. I will say one thing: every character is amazing. Every character has stuff to make you rip your hair out.

Found out tonight that 236B is not only safe on block, Chie's a bit advantageous on it, giving her a really strong high/low/throw mix-up if the opponent doesn't insta-block the final hit. I might try to incorporate this as a frame trap in block-strings, though 214D is probably a better bet as a frame trap if you know they're pressing normals to stop Tomoe pressure or JC.

Yeah, J.8D is definitely a flop. I'll add J.5D as a proposed change, since it gives the easiest follow-up and it can be confusing for new-comers because J.8D DOES work up until the final hit. It may seem pointless to note for those of us who know but it's an easy mistake to make.

Are you saying J.8D doesn't work, or is otherwise inefficient?

Perhaps it's just J.9D that fails? I realized when practicing my corner B+D combos that I accidentally did diagonal Ds more often than not (switched to stick for this game, execution is still spotty), so it might just be I tended to get 9D a bit. I'll test this out next time I'm on.

Corrections/changes: "2A > 5AA > 5B > 2B > 2AB (0%@983)" should be "2A > 5AA > 5B > 2B > 2AB (0%@1043)" - the original value assumes 5AA only hits a few times. "Throw OMC > 5C > 236B > 236B > dash 236D (50%@3051)" should be "Throw OMC > 5C > 236B > 236B > 236D (50%@3051)" - it's just a plain cancel, no dash needed or wanted. "2A > 5AA > 5B > 5C > 2B > 2C > 5B > 2AB (0%@1632)" should be "2A > 5AA > 5B > 5C > 2B > 2C > 5B > 2AB (0%@1722)" - the original value assumes 5AA only hits a few times. "236236C OMC > 2A > 2B > JB > JC > JBB > JC > 236C (100%@4298)" should be "236236C OMC > 2A > 2B > JB > JC > JBB > JC > 236C (100%@4898)" - Credit to Celerity for this one. "JBB > 5B > 5C > 2B > 236A >23A > 5B > 5C >5AB (0%@2545)" should be "JBB > 5B > 5C > 2B > 236A > 236A > 5B > 5C > 5AB (0%@2545)" "5AB-D (FC) > 5B > 5C > 2D > JD > 236B > 236B > 214D > 236236D (50%@4720)" might want to be changed to "5AB-D (FC) > 5B > 5C > 2D > J.5D > 236B > 236B > 214D > 236236D (50%@4720)" as J.8D fails on the last hit and J.5D leaves Chie the closest. "5BD (CH) > 5B > JC > 8D > 5AB (0%@2671)" should be "5BD (CH) > 5B > JC > J.8D > 5AB (0%@2671)" Additions: "5AB-D (FC) > 2B > 5C 66 5B > 5C > 236B > 236B > 5C > 5AB (0%@2987)" Corner oki combo. Credit to magz. Note that you don't cancel the micro-dash into 5B, you just micro-dash, recover, then 5B. Sadly the proposed corner damage combo by him seems to do 4440, which is below our current 5AB-D damage combo. "JBB > 5B > 5C > 236B > 236B > 5C > 236B > 236B > 214D > 236236D (50%@4540, Crouchers only)" possibly should be added, it's the best 50% meter croucher combo in the corner of which I know, and it's quite easy to both crouch and hit-confirm. If anyone knows a better JBB damage combo, let me know! Lastly, this a personal choice, but I think you might want to add a delay notation in corner 236A > 236A > 5B > 5C > 236B combos, as it's necessary to know and sure to confuse new players.

Any advice from Chie's perspective? Seems like Aigis destroys her in footsies, in air and on the ground.

That's got me confused pretty well too.

My biggest problem is how damn mobile he is, and Chie's lack of fast, low-range mid-range moves makes that a big strength over her. 2A and psychic 214C are her only hope for beating his dash up moves, everything else gets out-ranged and/or out-sped.