Angry Guy of DE

The oki with B orb is gone. The value of the B orb in the past was that it didn't move enough so that even in the corner an opponent couldn't delay wake-up or roll to dodge it as they would get hit. Its now just A orb that is not often forced to be respected as they can delay their wake-up to avoid it. The B orb is now gimmicky or only semi-viable to cover you as you run towards the enemy, unfortunately it probably doesn't have enough durability to beat as many things as before as it needs distance to build up durability. I think his damage and oki are going to be much weaker in the corner in 2.0.

You are missing my point with the B orb change. In corner combos the B orb added damage, combo extension, and reset the Stance change limit. I haven't seen much footage but I'm comparing what his options were from viable starters and how much damage and possible oki could be achieved. From a 5B starter in 1.1 Kagura could reach as high as 4K meter-less with A orb oki and around 3.6K with Stance 2A hard knockdown into B orb oki. Does 2.0 Kagura have similar potential with the change to B orb? I still stand by my question of why Kagura couldn't keep the original B orb by choosing to hold B during the entire animation?

Venom had two charge moves, Stinger Aim ([4]6 S or H) and Caracass Raid ([2]8 S or H) and both could be charged. His other moves weren't charge moves but he did have charge moves. I'm referring to holding the button during the startup animation so that by holding it through the animation you would get the current B orb instead of the 2.0 one. At close range the B orb only does two hits and seems to have little in the way of untech time. Also having Kagura needing to use 25 heat to do any real corner combo is nonsense when most of the cast choose to spend the 25 meter to extend a corner combo for optimal damage, Kagura has to spend it to just do a corner combo. Just allowing him to have two version of B orb would make him more flexible and still potentially have the oki he's known (and somewhat hated?) for.

I don't get why they didn't have the B version of [4]6 orb have two different effects if you held the button during the animation. Press and release = 2.0 orb that starts small and grows larger as it travels. Press and hold = previous orb that started large and loses durability as it travels. Venom could do it, why didn't they think of doing that for Kagura?

I'm referring to staggering on a move that can be jc'd on block to wait for a GCOD instead of just gatling right another move. Its a really unnecessary thing to have to deal with, it doesn't deepen game-play in any good way.

That GCOD looks really bad. This now means that straight up you might just eat 2.5 to 5K from an OD super when a move whiffs. This now means that you have to hope that you can jump cancel some moves on block in response to the activation. Otherwise this looks really un-fun once a person has 50 Heat.

@ chzchan: As far as charges go with the super, it requires a charge of 30F while holding [4]. Now the question is the start-up of the Guard Cancel OD unique or the same as raw OD (1+15) or OD cancel (1+5). It would be implied that it isn't the same as x-factor guard cancel where upon activation you are set back to neutral and can immediately perform a move, so there would be some form of recovery close to OD cancel. Then it would be looked at exactly how much invul. is there after the flash, if it is more than 2 frames from when you can act then so long as a charge was held then it would be a two frame invul reversal. While it is rather safe, most of the time Kagura uses this as a punish to a move that is more than -2 (not considering how far they were pushed back). Staggered A pressure is not what the super is used for as you could be hit during the 236 input of [4]1236 as you are not blocking. Also if the person is able to react with a viable reversible they can mash it out during the super flash if it has frame 1 invul and it will beat or at the least trade with the super.

Just to clarify, Kagura's [4]1236 C Super is 2 frames of startup (1 before flash, and another after the flash). It doesn't have any invul. so a meaty hit can hit him out of it after the flash.

I think what could've been very interesting was that Over Drive would reset SMP on moves done before activation. Some characters don't get much utility when even OD enhanced moves still trigger SMP so in some cases its done at the end of a combo to add on somewhere of 600-700 damage to a DD so help seal the match. Now sure it wouldn't change hitstun or damage scaling but most special moves done in combo have a set stun due to wall/ground bounce effect so it can offer additional juggle or carry. I also wouldn't mind if both people have burst and could pop their OD to nullify the other's OD activation and leave them at neutral (provided that one player is not in hitstun).

So pretty much all that means is you can A orb or B orb on that hit or do it at the current time...not that B orb is going to be good for much in 2.0

Relius isn't too scary... But that wife of his, Whoo. If she isn't a Battle-Axe...wait she's 1/3 Battle-Axe.

Comparing 50/50's in two different fighting games with different offensive and defensive mechanics doesn't really prove or disprove concepts. Cross-ups are reduced in effectiveness in UNiB because the system itself prevents them (mostly because of how absurd hit-boxes on moves can be) while in BlazBlue cross-ups are available to most of the cast in some form, value of it can vary. Blocking is also different since IB and Barrier are two separate things that can be used individually or combined to deal with pressure. UNiB's Shield mechanic...the idea that you are locked in a certain block for a certain amount of time (30 Frames?) that can make attempts to get out of pressure can get you hit because you are forced into a crouch block. Honestly most combo starters in UNiB is from punishing whiffed normal, punishing heavily minus normals on block, staggered strings to catch attempts to press buttons. Mixups generally aren't as prevalent because of the game mechanics and that some of the cast can just do almost midscreen starters for combos. But let's not state the obvious here. I mean we aren't going to say how weak mixups are in street fighter when most overheads don't even lead to combos right?

The small amount I saw with Kagura on that one stream with the change to B orb probably will make me look more at other games. I would've been fine with the flash kick change with the better run speed. End of Story, send to press. But the other changes like altering Stance 2A's hard knockdown on air hit to an air tech-able ground-bounce was the game's way of saying that oki was dead for Kagura.

I feel like they don't know what to do with Valk as a character. The amount of nerfs with the wolf would make you think that they would improve his human form in some way to make up for it, but that would make Too Much Sense. Honestly everything in 2.0 just leaves me wondering why they are making a point to make characters unable to fit into their playstyle with the changes and nerfs. We've already seen with CS 1 Rachel that removing or weakening needed tools turns a character that if played well be very strong to only being passable if played extremely well. I think Valk should be strong in the corner for damage and wolf combos should be built to push into the corner, which honestly should be what every character should do anyway. 2.0 just seem to make it harder for some rush-down characters to rush-down, and oki characters are unable to do oki with these changes. Seriously, who thought to increase the recovery on Terumi's 6D so much that he can't even do a follow-up on it? It's like most people's D moves are now a liability instead of a tool that makes them unique in how they play when they get so limited.

Spent more time in the lab to test set-ups and learned something very useful. Kagura can easily option select Kokonoe attempting Teleport on orb oki setups with his 5B. Simply press 5B >B and if she tries to teleport on wakeup your B follow-up to 5B will not come out because it only gatlings on hit or block. On whiff Kagura will just do 5B and you will recover before Kokonoe on her teleport. If Koko tries to press buttons your 5B can easily CH her to set-up the same oki. If Koko doesn't try to press buttons you can 5D when 5B whiffs and it will auto-correct the command throw and catch her. Another funny note is that a spaced 5B can actually dodge the A version of her super fireball and still CH her.

I think its just reflecting on Vanilla CP, 1.1 with its changes (for better or worse for some characters), and what we've seen with CP2.0. Normally you can look at a change and go, "Yeah I see where they were going for it" and either they missed the point or outright ruined the purpose of something a character has. Vanilla Kokonoe was nonsense, where basic scrubs were getting out of pools and making top 8 all the while dropping combos and making mistakes because she simply ignored most of the rules of the game with gatling options and brain-dead unblockable set-up with the blackhole. Some changes in 1.1 were welcomed since characters like Hakumen with OD could kill off a throw or Valk could do (seemingly) endless pressure that made every matchup just turn into Make Them Block > Go Wolf > Do 4-5 Mixups and Valk can get a combo and set-up the situation again. 2.0 However...the notes for changes make people look at their character and go "Well this combo doesn't work" or "My oki set-ups have been ruined entirely" with no real justification or compensation for it. I play Kagura, who I feel is designed for orb oki setups, and 2.0 changes have ruined his set-ups in the corner that allow him to use oki that is forced to be respected. His oki is meant to be strong because his neutral game is so weak, this makes some matchups hard without making strong reads and capitalizing on them. Now in 2.0 the advantage of hard-knockdowns is gone and the change to B orb makes it lose its utility for a gimmicky projectile that gains durability as it travels further. So yeah, a character who is viewed as mid-low tier will have his only strong trait weakened severely that made him a threat. If only there was actual Legit Japanese Kaguras that could give input.

Balance should look at the way a character works on their gameplan: Does this character have the tools to achieve their gameplan? If no then something should be tweaked so they are able to do that properly. If yes you then to ask if it is hard to do and how many mistakes can be made without losing. If it is Difficult to do and doesn't allow many mistakes then it should be tweaked so that it works better or that it doesn't punish them (or be sent back to square one) if a minor mistake is made. If it isn't hard to do and allows a large margin for error then it should be tweaked so that it isn't "braindead" or flow-charty because it is very effective and allows errors to a degree that a less skilled player can win against a better player because of the character's tools. My belief is that any character played correctly and is able to do their gameplan should appear broken. The keyword is "correctly" where you can see the difference between a basic Azrael and Dogura.

I play on stick as well, that midscreen combo just comes down to understanding that you have more time than you think to wait before tossing the A orb out after Stance 5A. The only tricky part of it is that some character hitboxes can change the timing by a little or visually appear harder to do.

The B orb change is awful, it will likely trade with most projectiles now unless it reaches 2/3 to full screen distance to raise its durability. This is probably why it was said that it became hard to link 2C > 5C after B orb in the corner because the number of hits have decreased and the fact that it won't keep them in place for 2C to hit. The flash kick change doesn't bother me as much since the B version seems to be a KoF style hop height flash kick so it should still be rather safe when air blocked. It did seem to suffer a damage reduction, dealing about 1K or so, and likely no potential combo follow-up on CH. The C version is now a straight up shoryuken since he goes almost vertical, damage seemed to be around 1.5K which is the current damage (or close enough). It clearly is punishable now, but I hope it has the same start-up and not slower or else it is worse overall than most DP's in the cast. The run speed is very nice, I think Kagura may have been the only character with an actual acceleration which made most micro-dashes pointless when you compare it to Ragna micro dash 5B or 5C. I would've been fine with just removing the slow start but his speed looks on par with Ragna or Jin run speed. Overall 2.0 Still looks bad since his best tool of corner hard knockdown into B orb oki to prevent delay wake-up and rolls was eliminated. It also doesn't help that Japanese Kaguras are few in number and some of those drop basic Bnb's still. Honestly, who drops 5BB>3C>Stance2C>Stance5A>dl[4]6A>5B>3C>Stance2B midscreen?

The run speed for Kagura is looking pretty good now, I don't think anyone else in the game had that acceleration which made micro-dash normal useless since it didn't result in extra range. The flash kicks...The B looks like it actually doesn't go as high as the current version so it looks like the go-to anti-air, though it seems to do less damage as a result. The C version pretty much has the dragon punch vertical momentum seen from Shotos in Street Fighter, I wonder if the start-up is the same with the different animation at the start. The B fireball...eh...without knowing how the durability and number of hits work might be more of nerf than anything else if it does less hits at close range. It also might lose or get nulled by more projectiles in the smaller phase and its not until 2/3 to full screen that it reaches the original size currently (or did it end up bigger at that range?) The run speed buff is nice, but the fireball change makes me a little uneasy since I liked his oki set-ups especially in the corner where you can make a person unable to roll or delay wake-up and have to either block or attempt an invincible move on wake-up.

Its better damage and even at max 5B range it will pretty much always connect. You can delay the [4]6A longer than you might think, just be aware that it doesn't work on Hakumen for reasons. Hakumen has a different route that actually results in more damage (this route only works on him). I guess the reason is that it is because it is optimal so you can get around 2.4K with [4]6A oki midscreen on the cast.

A good update is where characters with good points have some faults corrected so it isn't holding a character back without taking away what makes them unique. On the flip side, a character with seemingly no flaws can and should have something adjusted so they aren't seen as just a plain better version of another character when you look at them. Relius is a great example since Ignis pressure is something that no other character can imitate. The gauge usage right now allows extended pressure or combos but keeping an eye on the gauge is important since without Ignis Relius's weaknesses in defense are obvious (and able to be taken advantage of by the other player) if the Relius player makes that mistake.

Kagura mashing a charge move...People keep saying that without really thinking about it. Because Kagura doesn't have an actual normal with head invul he needs to have a flash kick charged and done in anticipation to jump-ins. His Flash kick is only considered safe because it needs to be barrier-blocked in the air which gives extra pushback combined with the number of hits. If you have a good ground game the flash kick now has to be carefully used and is able to be baited easily since he has a big deadzone between his A and B normals range to his C normal range. Reducing the natural pushback on air-barrier block would've been a better alternative since technically he's around -13 or so on air-block (-26 on ground block) and it is the pushback that makes it difficult to punish. If they increase the C version's recovery than he will be even more minus and it is a charge move so he can't IB or block overheads and then do [2]8C as a reversal.

This is how probably most Kagura players are looking at his changes. Vanillia: My C normals are a little slow but my 6A gatling lets me do really strong mix-ups. 1.1: Well my C normals got faster, but my 6C lost head invul so my only real anti-air is my flash kick...and I can't get a meterless combo from 6A now...but my stance moves got better overall with Stance 6A getting better and having great oki in the corner from Stance 2A. 2.0: So my only anti-air option now has a head-invul version which is the same as the previous type with the C version now being heavily unsafe probably on air-barrier block. Stance 2A now lost its utility since it doesn't do hard-knockdown into B orb oki...who thought that a charge move would be acceptable as the only anti-air to rely on? Kagura's only strength as an oki character is getting butchered in 2.0 with the current information provided. At this rate I'll be buddy tier with Makoto who also lost some of her oki ability...Great.

But again that follows with what I'm saying is that her damage output is low without spending more resources than other characters. Like Order Sol took chunks if he had his heat gauge even at just lvl 2, lvl3 was an honest 40% minimum combo with its damage. Her tracking sword super is pretty good but she can only use it as oki or if the opponent is on the other side of the screen. The threat of damage is so poor that unless she has all charges, pops mugen, and has meter her damage rarely hits 4K or higher