Sol Badguy Z AC

Replace Sol with Leo and I'll take your word for it at point blank. And no, I meant his rushdown. Playing against and watching many Faust players play, there seems to be very little in the way of safe options of getting him off of you. Not only is it that only a split second is needed for him to have the screen advantage to get in for free, but his moves are made safe due to the quick recovery of his item toss, or going my way. I don't care how random his item tosses are, the fact that he uses that move is an advantage for him, unless a candy bar/donut comes out, and considering the amount of items he can toss, there's not much chance of that happening. - He's got screen control - Awesome recovery - Hellride rushdown on cornered opponents - All the benefits of a character who can reach across the entire screen with very little of the drawbacks (hurtbox bullshit) - The ability to interrupt the opponent's offensive during their rightfully earned turn for spanking. - 5 anti airs. Standing kick, crouching kick, forward punch, and even dust. He can even crawl, wait for landing recovery and throw the opponent. Ridiculous. With all this, why is there any question as to why he's top tier? Why aren't more people complaining about him? My problem isn't with him being able to keep opponent's off him through the use of his items (which to me, seems to be the main problem). My problem comes in when that screen control just lets him waltz right up to you for free - hence why I think little faust should peace out halfway through the screen. He can already hit you on the way down, but he also serves as a slow moving projectile that lets Faust act as wild as he wants to for as long as he's there. He's got like 5 anti airs, and that's just no fuckin good. Hopefully you mean defense raiting, because he has everything he needs to deal with pressure of all sorts. And about the hurtbox thing.... Well, that was their design choice. Don't make a big character if you can't hit them. It's better than making a character deceptively smaller than he appears on the screen. BRUH I think the problem is that he has a little too much "going his way". While I don't want to make Faust any less fun for Faust players to play, I think he DOES deserve to eat as much shit as he dishes out, and that scale seems unbalanced in his favor, hence why he's able to rank so high in the tiers.

Tell that to Kain R. Heinlein. People using them properly or at the right distance means that they will most likely never get punished outside of backdash or a just defend into a quick hitting super. Regardless of that, they have their break points at the most optimum timing, which is what someone was attempting to use as a counterpoint earlier towards me. He asked, I answered. *shrug* I could also go out on a limb and say MVC3/U has the ability to cancel out of whiffed DPs too. I totally can. Likening making a character derpier to play to something like armeggedon is nothing more than sheer absurdity, especially without stating what would be wrong with it. Like, say, if Beast replied first, and explained all this stuff, THEN everyone went insane, then let the party begin. And I litterally had trouble sleeping last night. Probably too much sugar. They're not bothering me by shitting up the thread, and felating eachother in congratulations for it. There's nothing shameful in being proven wrong during an argument. If they want to see my skills they can bring it to the net. Believe me, I find this stuff just as amusing as you do. That's fair enough, but the problems overall that have been explained so far could be dealt with using an overall damage nerf, which I'd be fine with, seeing as safer Sol = better Sol to me. I admit, I need a bit more practice writing. It doesn't help that this quote system is absolute ass either, or I'd retort better instead of condensing down to make up for the ridiculous amount of time I'm spending replying to you guys. I thought that shit was hilarious too. Some of this ridicule is just wildly entertaining, though I think it was more based on the number of changes I made rather than the actual changes themselves, seeing as they really didn't put forth any input on them.

Well, these are the kinda posts I am looking forward to. Be patient though, last night was like sleeping on bricks for me. Though if he really wants me to name a fighting game with whiff cancelable DPs, then sure, I'll show you my knowledge. GAROU, MARK OF THE WOLVES. Not the most balanced game, but it's damned sure not broken because DP characters are getting away with horseshit. They also cancel those moves with no meter usage too.

Forgetting to read the part where I stated this is how a character's changelist would look like if they were given the same treatment Sol did over the years is genius trolling.

Good point.... Another good point.... I want to hit Ky and Millia out of their sliding moves. And it was a good long while ago, but yeah, we did both agree that Sol should get the beat out on Ky if he does stun dipper at a bad time while we're BRing. And again, the extra stun doesn't seem like a problem, shouldn't have slid while I was doing that. I also don't care to think about what anit-sol players think about that move. This move by design, should hop over lows and hit them on the way down if there's that much recovery. Nor am I concerned about scrubs who can't intuitively figure out that blocking BR gives them a free throw at the end. Also, Sol's foot will make contact with the opponent even when crouching, before it reaches the point where it hits below him. This is not a problem. I don't understand how. I've seen people reject gatling jumping punches in succession. It should be :P IF, and only IF, they were that close, in that particular part of the screen, they deserved to get pushed out. You can simply super jump over the blast part. I think it should be changed because it doesn't seem right at all. Hellfire be damned. It's a super. Block it. Gotcha Well it should definitely not be so unsafe on block. You're forgetting normals that have completed. I'm still not seeing a problem with it. If they screwed up, that's on them. Yeah, for the most part. The more minor things still suffice. I'll be sure to think more carefully about proposing changes to things from here on out.

[Morpheus] And what if I told you there was this magical ability to set the point for which a move could become PRCed?[/Matrix] You also act like divekick is his one stop shop for getting out of any air situation for free. Forget the fact that Sol will probably still be facing away from the opponent, making the use of divekick horribly unsafe when he lands. Edit: Seriously, this forum's quote system is busted.

It doesn't bother me how they respond. It's not like I'm upset with it. I think the fact that they're acting like wild animals is more telling of their understanding than it is mine. I mean, to compromise, even at best, all I'm doing is making Sol derpier. If people think that the idea of making fafnir do 5 more frames of untech time is akin to giving Leo a nuclear warhead for a forward punch, or screen clearing supers that cost no meter, then so be it. It IS still good for a laugh, even if I'm trying to be serious. If anything, why doesn't someone explain to me why Faust should have such ridiculous screen control, range, and insane rushdown (what with being complete with a safejump that stops his upward momentum) and be considered fair, with no need for changes in revalator, if these designers are completely astute in their balance mechanics? I did keep in mind the abilities of better Sol players, my one problem is that there were properties about certain moves that I didn't take into consideration, and should've tried in practice mode rather than just relying entirely on theory fighter. They've been addressed, and dropped. I still have a few others that I still think are viable until they are also addressed in an appropriate way. And if you think that my ideas were bad, you should hear some of Steve H's suggestions for Ky. Lol - Air greed sever (for knockdown purposes) - Air Split ciel - Cross up jumping slash returns (I aggree with this one) - faster stun dipper - Jump install on air fireball yrc

I'd also ask you not fall into a similar trap - one where we assume that just because it can happen that it's viable in all but fluke situations. Unlike what a great deal many of you may think, I am taking into consideration matches of "better" players than myself, and seeing how often the reliance upon Sol's specials and even normals leads to colossal disappointments. Geez man, would it kill you to name a few moves that it wouldn't beat anymore? Anyway, I proposed this change to see it used more often than it is, because at present and at high level, it's pretty much not used at all. [Unicron]You exaggerate...[/unicron]. I think it's fair for Sol to get IAD attack > attack > VV when confirming that gunflame has hit without anticipating it. Unless you can name an example where this untechable time will lead to more than necessary damage and advantages, it seems objectively justified. I guess it would help if I specified exactly how much untech time I'd be giving it. Maybe 7. Okay, you win this one. Just checked it out in practice mode. I was under the impression that the opponent could still tech from counterhit cr. HS in Xrd at a certain height that would make Sol unable to do his most damaging combo. Wow dude. You and I have agreed for the longest time that Bandit revolver should hit people below him when coming back down. And no, it wouldn't need to be adjusted if they added that in, because the hit contact would be consumed at an earlier point - it's not like the previous hitboxes from the earlier parts of the animation would just disappear, leaving only the fully revolved one. Regardless, who cares if it leads to massive stun on a crouching opponent? Anyone in their right minds would just block it high or hit him out of it before it completes. And even werider still, you're more willing to approve the YRC over that? Even I thought that the extended YRC window might be pushing it.... D: Not sure I understand you here. What's so great about canceling a jumping kick into jumping p? Also, I noticed that j.k can't cancel into j. HS. That needs to be addressed yesterday. I'm not budging on this one. Standing HS for the longest time in GG had that small little invulnerability on his lower hitbox, and these were games where he could get maximum damage MIDSCREEN. The fact that it whiffs in front of his face makes extending the hitbox closer to his body a necessity. On the pushing them out for free.... So what? I wasted a full bar of meter to get to that point. And again, the fact that these have such drawbacks justifies the changes fixing them. If they're so small, or insignificant, why not? Hmmmm.... Fine, I'll give you this one. But you do realize that double Fafnir in a combo causes immediate knockdown? For the life of me, I don't understand WHAT THE FUCK the year or times have anything to do with gameplay. And it'd be nice if you actually provided reasons as to why they're not great. Fine fine, I'll give you this one. Shit, you know what, you're right on this one. I really ought to try some of the stuff that I'm thinking out in practice mode instead of pulling it from what I remember. Nah, he does take counterhits a lot despite having completed a move. Try getting counterhits on Ky in similar situations. The counterhit windows for other characters are significantly smaller than his. Reducing it would only result in Sol not taking ridiculous damage for trying to think. For a Guilty Gear player who's played so long, it seems as if you don't know how GG reacts sometimes. You would maintain the upward and forward velocity of your DP, meaning you're still going for a ride. The PRC is just to make it safer on the way down. I can't imagine ANY situation where he could punish someone for baiting his DP. Well, thanks for your input. Though I wouldn't give much credit to anyone who complains about Sol. You and I both know he eats about as much shit as he gives, and they've made up their mind already about the character, so leave their scrub asses be. Though I still think some of these tweaks that haven't been given appropriate counterpoints as to why they're a bad idea should still be implemented.

Or maybe I want stuff that specifically addresses my statements, and how they would mess him up, not general stuff about the moves in question. Excuse me, I'm not trying to use my intuition here and piece together what you're implying - though I'm quite sure I understand the majority of what's being said, and if I'm continuing, then it's because what's being stated really doesn't address the topic. EDIT: K beast replied, gonna read EDIT 2: I'll probably respond in the morning. Tired. Beast replied appropriately. This at least addresses my concerns, I'll be back to clear up confusion (and there still are some).

Well why don't you, and everyone else, explain to me, how these changes would unbalance him, addressing the proposals rather than giving me general info on Sol? I'll wait. I'll check it out tomorow morning. That's if he gets counterhit cr.HS at a certain height. What I'm proposing a hitbox reaching above his head. The opponent would be able to tech before they're in range for anything else more damaging than the standard bnb. I'm pretty sure that 4 frames is a fraction of a second. Asking for a fraction of a second more to make sure my BB hits after fafnir is that bad? Seriously? Then sit there and block it then. I've been punished before because people blocked the flames. Soon as you can find me another game not made by arc that allows you to cancel your standing animation. Except Venom's pool que is actually making contact with something. You're most likely not hitting air and reaping counterhits.

See the prefix "built in". Rather than a move having a drawback through design, like riot stamp being forward punch bait, I'm talking about added, unnecessary stuff, like there being a gap between Sol's divekick and the flames that come out when he lands.

Except you've not made an attempt to explain exactly how certain changes would lead to dumbness. I mean, I'd like to set my mind at ease about some of this stuff too, to a point where I could stop wondering if these tweaks would actually be worthwhile.

Because this list addresses all of the problems that Sol has regarding his bad matchups, correct? I've watched plenty of matches of high ranking players. They're not doing anything different than what I am. If Sol was so damned good as you make him out to be, a lot of this stuff you constantly mention to me would happen more often. But I never see it. Like.... Ever. Maybe in previous games, but definitely not this one. Matches of these death combos on people who are paying attention please. May could dizzy you in 3 hits (can she still now? don't know) and Eddie has or has had a Touch of Death combo in Xrd at some point. Again, where is this happening so often that it's problematic? Address the actual things I've stated, not previous problems before. I don't remember making the slightest mention of adding block stun to fafnir. He is, I agree, but those built in drawbacks need to go.

I heard that Ramlethal was made trash in Revalator, so I assumed there were nerfs. Especially since they moved Sol up to 2nd best next to Eddie. You missed the part where I said you can attack his foot on the way down when he does standing kick. Cr. S has 5 frame advantage if I'm correct, but shitty startup and short range. If you're not already close this move isn't doing anything for you. Yes, sweep is awesome, but ain't giving you much unless you've got meter to spend. And this is the first time I've ever heard jumping slash being a great tool, as it doesn't cancel into much and it's not a move you throw out in the air to beat anything. I'll give you that on the jumping hs though. I can already do the combos. I'm still not satisfied with them being so tight. 2/3rds off of a counterhit anti air? I'll believe that when I see it. That they pop up during counterhit isn't good for him. It's more that a fluke happened when I was fighting someone online. I don't remember how it happened - maybe the guy said 'fuck it' and ran straight at me when the first hit of DITR whiffed (I tried to chip him out) - but the blast missed completely while he was in front of my face. It was just fine as a surprise get me out of the corner attack when opponents got too disrespectful. It also wallbounced on counterhit in the AC's and was a hell of a lot more useful that way. I could do without the changes they made to it in XRD. 4 extra frames of untech time is that bad? (sorry, off by a frame, need to correct that) I'm actually fine with that. All I wanted for divekick was to have the flames hitboxes hit in front of him. There's a gap between the flames and his foot when he lands allows opponents to get away with bullcrap, blocking the first hit and not even seeing the rest of that. There's enough start up on this move to render the fact that he's changing trajectory moot. And I have meter. If I'm willing to sacrifice 50% meter to make a screw up safe, I should be able to do that. It's not like I'm totally out of the woods anyway. You........DID..... see the part where I stated that this is what another character's nerfs would look like if they got the Sol treatment over the years, right? They're well deserved, but are still something that shows built in drawbacks being added. Imagine faust getting crouching punched out of his thrust move from full screen away, and you'll know Sol's pain for taking hits while executing forward hardslash while the opponent is hitting nothing but air. I'm not even going to address everyone else's stuff. With the way they're acting, it's like I'm making huge, unreasonable differences to the character's playstyle.

In this thread, I want to not only bring up what I think are oversights in the designs of certain character's attacks, but also how I think they should be addressed, while hearing your opinions on said changes, and even more so, bring to light many other noticeable problems with character's and their attacks that you've seen occur during gameplay. If I myself am not taking something into consideration, please do point it out. Though this isn't for me to suggest NEW moves or anything like that, but tweaks to existing ones that I think aren't doing their jobs to the best of their ability. Gameplay Tweaks Section: ***************************************************************************************************************************************** Let me know what you think of my proposed changes. Good or bad, I'll listen. ***************************************************************************************************************************************************** Other Character problems: Me not being familiar with too many other character's movesets, I want to know if anyone knows of any other flukes that occur in Guilty Gear with other characters. Please reply and list them below, I want to test them out and propose changes for those too, if they don't function how they should. I've heard Ramlethal was screwed over severely in Revalator, though I don't have much of a problem with the way she plays now in the current console Xrd. Yeah, she's annoying as hell, and getting out of her stuff is a pain, but she's not deserving of that great a nerf.

Late response: It's been fixed anyway, so there was no need to say again. And no, there's no issue with my pad, or it wouldn't happen on other pads I have. Don't know what else to tell ya. I can press the buttons and get the darkened inputs to come out without holding anything down. I realize that I'm triggering said "held down" mechanic, but as fast as I'm pressing the buttons, with the fact that I'm releasing them just as quickly in mind, sliding input STILL best describes this occurrence, whether anyone wants to see that as innacurate or not.

Well, most people play on stick, so they won't feel a problem anyway. And yeah, there's a way to adapt to the way the inputs were (as of this time, the patch is out, fixing input problems), as I've already stated, you have to hit the buttons harder. I'm not trying to get carpal tunnel messing around with a video game. I've been playing games since I was 5 and never had I have to jam buttons just to get them to work. Anyway, I guess the issue is resolved now. YRCs come out smoothly even with darkened inputs, and I had very little problem pulling them off in training mode, so I can probably put this behind me now.

That's okay and all, but this sliding input detection drops inputs on anything that is slid, as far as I can tell. There's no other explanation I can think of as to why I would press a button during neutral and it just doesn't execute at all. I've played with the ps3 pad both plugged in and wireless, and also with a ps2 pad. The game is just fucked up for pad players, from what I see. Also, I never negative edge (even in previous ggs) an RC unless by accident anyway.

I don't know if anyone's noticed this before, or this has been discussed, but my apologies if this has been addressed already... -- Continuing -- Last sunday, I got bodied by Steve H in what was my first ever "in person" matchup with someone in guilty gear xrd. Now I'm absolutely no slouch in this fucking game, and I know that he's the best Ky on the East coast, but fuck that, he's MY guilty gear student, I'll be damned if I get 10 streaked when left to my own devices - especially by someone that I trained to play this game. I've noticed on 20 occasions the game not executing attacks that I've input, and infuriated, one of my controllers almost bought the farm (I fixed it the next day). I had suspicions about the way the game handles inputs before, but I always chalked it up to online fraud. I've figured it out - the most infuriating thing about Xrd that's absolutely inexcusable..... This game is only meant for arcade sticks. What with the way it reads inputs, a lot of them get dropped for shitty reasons, and the only possible explanation for it being that way is because I'm playing on a pad. You see, after playing online and noticing a LOT of my inputs get dropped seemingly out of nowhere, I went to the training room to see what the hell is going on and why this seems to happen so often. So one of the biggest issues I was having was YRCs being dropped like they were hot. After about 30 seconds, I realized just what was going on - when I looked at the input display, I noticed when YRCs were dropped, certain inputs were faded out, or darkened. Trying to repeat the process, I tried all types of ways to press the buttons to get those faded inputs to show up, and then it hit me. I slid my thumb over two buttons and bam, that faded input again. There you have it. Xrd reads SLIDING inputs, and decides not to execute the slid button. What use is this fucking function? I have no fucking clue, but it makes for horrible play on a pad, where only smashing buttons pretty hard is the only way to make sure all inputs come out smoothly, and you can only really do that on an arcade stick.

More Ramlethal http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm23290939

He still is. Just because a great player beasted with him in some tournament means absolutely nothing. His gimmicks are shit, his damage output ain't as great as it used to be. He's kinda like Sol is in this game, except watered down further to the point of being absolutely boring to play. I've never really liked or mained Slayer, but I still respected him as a character up until they made him yet another "want to launch you for high damage air combo" type. At least in AC, it did massive damage. In this game, I can at least breathe easy knowing that Slayer is just like everyone else in damage output and not much of a threat.

SOL BADGUY - - Riot Stamp speed improved, fixed hitbox - Riot Stamp meterless cancel. Hold kick as he nears the wall, and upon contact, he will simply let go of the wall and drop down instead of performing the rest of the move. FRC point still in place to allow him access to previous gimmicks. - (Idea that Blade gave me) 2nd Hit of Tyrant Rave as a forcebreak. Very fast, excellent recovery, long range poke. Sidewinder fire effects. Wall bounces like counterhit Riot Stamp. - Grand Viper has to have it's final hit inputted using hardslash.

Wow, that guy's still around?

SBZ here. Did stolens your honey.

What the helling shit of a vagina piss did I just see in my monitor monitor monitor monitor monitor