GBAer64

Well she IS looking like Kokonoe right now. Retardly strong is basically what I mean. Which leaves me icky... Whether I'm the opponent or not... I really REALLY do hope that she's a glass cannon. Even though that was originally Elizabeth's job (btw they really should buff her), she needs low health if I PERSONALLY want to take her seriously. Since that's the only possible drawback left that hasn't been covered up by the demos, trailers, and videos.

Can I at least guess that it's better damage wise? (Don't know what P2 is so I probably sound like I don't get what you're saying which is the case)

If it's just a bit above the ground than truthfully, Mamudoon would be the preferred instant-death attack to use most likely since being able to cover as much area as Mamudoon can do would allow it to be used in more combos. But I guess the recover IS as bad as you guys are saying. : / Seriously though... it's kinda sad to hear that you could basically be punished no matter what limitation/binding/recovery your opponent is in while using Mamudoon since I can see just how much pressure Elizabeth could apply if she could throw it around during the match (at least during the neutral phases of a match) I used to think the same about the Awakened Magarudyne too actually (the SB thing). I'm guessing it's easier to loop in the awakened form since the move just throws the opponent straight up and back down on the same spot rather than requiring all of that falling physics stuff that old/unawakened Magarudyne has.

With all those moves, it's almost guaranteed or at least needed for her to be low hp since she also moves pretty quickly compared to quite a few other characters.

Wait it does!? 0_0 That sounds amazing (even though it also sounds horrible...). So is Mamudoon so long in recovery that we can't even punish moves like Aki's Maziodyne or Teddie's "Teddie Circus"? If that's the case than it's a lot worse than I thought... Also can Magarudyne "loop" in Awakening like "Unawakened" version can do?

What makes you think the Suplex grab was her DP though? Is it because of the orange spark that comes up at the very beginning of that footage?

64AB? I guess that's what we'll be naming Randomizer's command right? Well knowing what to do in every situation is the best way to go. So it's best just to learn to use both options and practice. You never know, every nifty little trick is what makes a decent/great player. : P

I'm not sure if 2C is possible though since the place the opponent falls is at the middle of the screen (I think) and Elizabeth, whilst performing the move moves faaaaaaaaar back in to the corner where her back is turned. Or am I thinking wrong?

Well we can still use Mind Charge right? I mean, it's not the best choice since we'd have to sacrifice even more for the SB version (which is basically Mind Charge from before) but if we need to finish off the opponent, then we must. Or you could use it if you're feeling cocky/confident. : P Wait they can't awaken? It feels strange to think of it that way. They have more health, but they can't have damage reduction when they're near death... I wonder what the reason for not giving awakening is? At the very least I think they can still use awakened SP specials though right? Correct me if I'm wrong though, but I did remember seeing a Shadow Chie perform an insane combo with like two Agneyastras and two God Hands (and a lot of Power Charges) within one Shadow Frenzy combo. @_@

It's even chargeable now!? And they exactly have that much added health? And oh yeah... we can't exactly use corner Mabufudyne B<OMC<Ghastly Wail since the freeze property is kinda... different now.

True true, and it seems that figuring out how to use her has held out well for those who have implemented it. Sure they still have trouble agains the truly bad match ups we have. But they stand a good chance at least from the videos I've been watching (most from here though). I admit, I am and was a part of this too and felt the same way. Which is why I kinda want to deviate or at least bring the focus to something else since moping around won't get anywhere. Kinda like if someone close to you died. : P Oh... I never thought of that until now... 0_0 I've been able to land a Fear + Counter + OHSM Ghastly Wail quite a few times (thanks to Mind Charge when the opponent techs). That damage alone has really pulled a reversal that has saved me and more or less made the opponent a little mad at me... or respect me occasionally. 6300 damage... Now with a Negative Penalty at hand I think we might have more chances for reversals. I mean... setting all of them at once (probably) would be an instant kill. But being able to bring in a negative penalty and a Ghastly Wail would probably give damage that would make the opponent fear us or at least know they should watch themselves before it's too late. Speaking of which does Ghastly Wail actually have a difference now!? I know that back in the original the D version just came out a handful of frames slower than the C version. With both providing the same amount of damage. So... do we have any info on the SB version now? I know we had a bit of discussion about what it's actual attributes were... So I'm not sure if we've been able to delve deeper with more wisdom on the matter.

I was starting to think that too, I mean the hit itself comes out fast. But the start up for the teleportation looks slow enough to be spotted. It's just that we'll have to watch ourselves if we use Maragidyne or anything with a long recovery, let alone something with a slightly longer startup. Though that's only if the teleportation goes right behind you like seen in the trailer. It doesn't seem like it's a full screen attack, nor can I easily assume that there's a different variation with the move. So where she will appear is a question that can't be answered for now. The answer would help or hurt us by giving or taking away Elizabeth's options and ability to take a risk (which we really shouldn't for the most part since she's the lowest hp but). And yeah! You have a point, we've already had our melancholy moments quite a few months ago so it's not like we should drag it on again. What we need to do now is just gather as much knowledge as we can! After all, knowledge is half the battle (with execution and a few other things being the other half I guess)! So using that energy to muster it up now will help us. Sometimes not only for us when we're just Elizabeth, but as a player in general.

Eh!? Wait what!? Please! At least tell me why since I don't get what you mean! ; A; I think I can see why they would go with the latter choice of approach with us. After all, it doesn't seem like ASW releases a lot of patches for "balancing" like a MOBA (implying League but I'll stop right here) goes since fighting games require more change than just plans. It requires a change in execution of combos and a change in how to fighting general with the smallest of differences. Especially for a change that in comparison with the two versions of Liz (loketest and now), would change a lot if I were to guess. Especially with how it's been a few months and there have already been tournaments and other such competitive play in action on the JP version already. To change it now would be problematic for some pros. Not all, just some from what I would guess. The other thing that is simple bigotry with this though, is that they had as much time to realize this also. And I'm going to guess that the JP players at least had a bit of a problem like we are having too.

Well I'm back from a good nights sleep and happy to see you guys again! : D Indeed, and I'd have to say that even if it is possible, doesn't mean the difficulty is the same when it comes to balancing (even though they got it right in the first loketest...). And ty for being able to show me Luminos! ^o^ Well hey it's not like we shouldn't hope or help her on her struggle. Besides, we play her for fun, not the wins. D : And even if it's a bit harder with Lizzie on tournaments (if you participate in them that is...) then that just means people haven't seen her potential yet. I mean Morgan Fey didn't exactly get nominated for being a viable character until someone made her bullet-hell mirror soul fist frenzy (though we're in a different kind of fighting game so it's not the closest example to take into account but you see what I mean). Oh yeah, hadn't caught notice of that until you came in Balguna. Ty for that, this might end up being how we can get the benefit too since we most likely have more options of attacking or applying pressure from afar than Margaret. Oh yeah... I'd heard that Junpei is for the most part, a bit sub-par since he needs home-runs to start gaining power. And become a beast when he hit's enough to get to War Cry (I think that's the name). I guess the both of them do indeed feel similar in game plan. Can't say they're the same in attributes though but nonetheless their strategies are still somewhat similar (since it's also the only one that we can actually delve into too). Although that is to say that any character can perform really well if they have the power to control the flow of the fight. So I guess that just means we have to do our best to not allow that to happen for our opponents when the console version comes out for us.

So she's going to be like a... D.amageP.erS.econd-esque character? In a fighting game that is generally created with intense, fast-pacing action? I admit I'm exaggerating since that isn't the only thing she can do well, but having the ability to somewhat easily inflict poison isn't the best positive for our good 'ol waifu (thank you for that compliment on my love for her btw unless that was a sarcastic statement which I can't detect easily, text or speech ^w^). Especially since some character's can inflict with more ease. i.e. Yosuke's grab. Then again she still can inflict fear or negative penalty, but those are only useful if she can get the opponent again, which already is her lacking point, being able to confirm a hit and make a combo out of it. Even harder is when other characters can do this so easily and/or find ways out of HER options easily. It's like a baby knowing how to ride a tricycle but still struggling to learn to walk. But oh well, I might just be pessimistic right now (in fact that's kinda been my mood this night with... a lot of things so I'm going to sleep to hopefully bring something other than new worries into this nice little discussion thread)

Indeed, you know ASW really does need to see how much of a struggle it is for us to just stand a chance against even decent opponents. I know status ailments is Lizzie's specialty, along with maybe awakening since she has no shadow mode. But even with so many status ailment inflictions she doesn't have many ways to make her specialty spark up. Which is the problem as I see it. Now that I think about it... if Lizzie had set-ups and resets like other characters do you think she would end up... more... OP rather than perfectly fine? IDK when you think about it... She dealt bunches of damage back then along with a possible paralyze and/or fear status (with a corner combo probably). Getting stuck with those two ailments spelled doom for anyone and everyone, especially since most would probably have at least half their hp down the drain already. Problem was being able to get the opponent and grab the chance to perform it, along with how any risk can lead to a KO for Lizzie. So if they did anything with Lizzie as of now she would either be too powerful (like she is known for but is bad otherwise since gameplay balance), or too weak (which is what we ended up with now and before). So when I think about it now... it's already tough just deciding what to do with the lovely velvet waifu. Though that's just me rambling on since I think this has been poked on for quite awhile until they "fixed" or at least made her viable again with the patch. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Though moving along now (I'd hide the above but I don't know how to turn it into something as a "spoiler" so moving forward. Well you got a point. Her clumsy, socially curious personality was something that was cute and unlike anything else at the same time. Which to the more hilarious social links of Persona 3 (and even more as we see her today XD). Margaret on the other hand is what she is, powerful, and almost all knowing. Like Igor but without the nose and "PERSONAPERSONAPERSONAPERSONA!!!" or "SOCIALLINKSOCIALLINKSOCIALLINKSOCIALLINK!!!" which doesn't make her as eventful or great as a character. Since all she is is just a great ally for Yu and pals for me. But even though it's just a trailer, it's safe to say that Margaret is basically Elizabeth 2.0 UltimaxSuplex. Since it seems like she borrows a bit from the new characters. Specifically Personaless Sho with that teleporting business she made for a free AoA. Edit: After looking at the trailer more, it seems that Margaret focuses more on physical attacks rather than our Lizzie's magic and zoning. This might mean that we can still bring some power with our fullscreen abilities (but there's still the teleport that's the big question/problem). And that her grab at least doesn't seem easily combo...-able. After all, Chie can do it with a sweep or low hit but Margaret's throw seems like it would require timing, an OMC, and only a few moves that would be able to connect if she tried to follow up her Suplex throw.

IDK though... I mean, the fact that a burst is required for that Mahamaon combo feels like it's still impractical but that's just me, I mean it still looks performable compared to the P4U version at least. Just means that I'll need to learn that combo (or at least something akin) if I want to stand against a good Shadow Mitsuru, Chie, or Yu. : / Though I can certainly agree that the pressure and neutral game look more difficult for the opponent to guess, especially with that chargeable 2C. Though of course with some moves drawn back too. Seems like 5D/JD has more use for combos rather than pressure now (though we might still be able to use it as a reset maybe). With Mabufudyne being a part of that exchange too. Our 5A(A) seems less risky on block thankfully. Honestly, it feels like I have to relearn Lizzie now, which might be a pain for me (since I just recently decided to relearn P4U Liz). But that won't stop me from dropping her. Also Margaret's trailer just came out! (Yay-ish) and it seems she also is persona dependent (dat 8 cards doe) with immense power but... what are the differences between Margaret and Lizzie? All I can think of now are that Elizabeth utilizes abuse of status ailments and her awakening mode while Margaret is... just a lot of damage in general? That's all I can think of for differences. What do you guys think?

This might not exactly be a trick to use but I don't believe it's been mentioned so I'd like to post it here. ^_^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One of several ways I can dish out a 4K damage (or so) combo is that if I'm able to use SB Maziodyne and catch the opponent. Using OMC and running towards them extends the "wall" to the very corner where the wallstick effect will be placed. With the wallstick I can proceed with a good 'ol corner combo and apply some meh... oki pressure after the combo (pressure's not exactly my forte when I fight). Just mind the SP usage being a tad high and might be a bit too much for the prize (75SP whilst excluding SP used during combos). But hey, if I can catch that one Mitsuru and deal almost half her hp by a 236AB. I'd say it's worth it if you don't have any other way to catch the opponent (such as against a zoning Yukiko). Also remember that SB Maziodyne doesn't go for too long so using this at about mid-screen (maybe a bit closer to the corner) would be about the maximum length you can go before the move ends along your chance for a corner combo. So going corner to corner wouldn't be as beneficial though I guess you could use this trick for creating space to get out of the corner. If you'd like to practice on it, first start off with using this on the ground since you can immediately dash once you OMC. There's a slight delay if you're even a tiny hop away from the ground but you might still be able to run there fast enough for a corner combo Note: Elizabeth's Invigorate skill allows it to happen more often than you'd expect so it's best to keep this in the corner of your head just for safe-keeping during the neutral game. Don't forget that SB Maziodyne's recovery is a bit long along with the startup possibly being enough time for your opponent to react. So best to always keep safe unless you know you'll get 'em for sure! Combos I use if this is executed correctly: *Trick= 236AB<OMC<Dash Trick<5B<2AB<236C/D<5A<5B<2AB<236C/D<2A<5B<5C<2C<214B<214B<J.C. Trick<5A<5C<2C<236AB<2AB<236CD<236C or J.C. Trick<5B<5C<2C<214B<AoA(AB)<OMC<214214C/D ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- They're not the best combos like many of you have showed, but they get the job done when I play ranked. They're just minor little temporary ones for until I get the hang of using the Magarudyne loops on characters that aren't the too beef heads of the cast. The top one is only used during the 1/10 times I fight against someone I can actually catch. Just for those who prefer/have more execution. Also I kinda forgot but for P4A, is there a difference between Ghastly Wail's C and D version? Same is also questioned by Diarahan's A and B versions too. : /

Well if it were any shorter I guess it would be wildly unfair for anyone to fight against us. No one would even bother jumping unless we didn't have 25 SP. Are there any invincibility frames like 2C has though? If it can travel fullscreen that fast, it might just end up being completely nullified with Yukiko's fans or a arrow from Yukari. Ah well, is there any use for 5AAA by the way? I'd imagine that you could just use AC to pass through it during the auto combo on block. That's just a guess though since the time between the two attacks seems just enough to AC out and punish.

The one in the video you used? Hmmm well I'll try to read it real quick. The quality is very iffy for me though (I'm new to Nico Nico) Edit: Ack...it's too blurry... DX Also doesn't the SB version go really fast and "track" the opponent? Now that I think about it... what's the recovery of the three versions? At least in comparison with each other of course. If the SB version has a long recovery that might be risky against fighters like Yukiko who have a surprisingly fast air dash. Does 214 B also move forward a bit like in the original? Or does it stay in the same spot like original 214A?

What were the properties of A and B Mabufudyne again? And now that I think about it. Do they have a buff during awakening? (Forgive me for asking)

I honestly have no idea WHATSOEVER how in the holy mother of Izanami anyone playing Liz can stand a chance against this waifu bitch... I can however say that if you (somehow) are able to knock Chie down and she has 50 SP. Using mind charge when she wakes up can really help you at punishing her (That is if you have the SP). With mind charge, the super move pause it makes allows you to read what the opponent will do next, that is if you use it when they're about to go. Though Chie's God Hand goes by pretty fast I believe a mind charge is fast enough for you to read a move without getting bopped for 4K damage in one hit. This can also help since if Chie uses her FA, you can easily punish her if you're close enough, even better is if you can get a grab off of her. EVEN BETTER THAN THAT is if it's in the corner. Can't say for sure if that'll help anyone out in this godawful matchup where hope is the last thing to come to mind. But I only wish for others to go ahead better than I do in this fight.

Anyone mind telling me how to get out of the pressure that Akihiko can make? Literally getting caught in his 5A is enough for him to use killrush or his auto combo which usually end up in a rock, paper, scissors fight the whole match. And when he uses sweep he can just use J.A and start over the process without a second thought (at least from my matches against him). I think only when he uses Duck SB version for a cross up or uses throw mixup is the only moment where I can actually get him off of being so close to me and that's not saying he won't come right back up my face either. Any bright ideas against the protein junky anyone?

*Finally meets a good Teddie that get's two perfect rounds in a row Me: Wth... Like... the pressure Teddie's create are MUCH more devastating when they can fight at least half as good as Brkrdave. Let's not forget those items which can be real distracting and can help him get in on you. Also, something I noticed is that when Teddie's use Teddie screw A (maybe even B) they can OMC and use 2A/2AB which could lead to another helping of devastating combos from them. They can do this before or after passing you so don't think that they'll always OMC from the back side. Best to hold down and the backside then switch to the other side. (I'm having a total blank moment where I forgot which side the perspective of inputting commands would be when discussing it... left or right? This is also probably a bit confusing and wordy so I'll edit this later to clarify what I mean exactly) I can't say much else since I don't know where to start other then to keep holding the high guard or low guard if he uses J.A or 2A since they are multi-hitting attacks.

Well what else is there to talk about Lizzie right now? The worst of my imagination about Adachi right now is the fact that he could easily send an untechable grab with his Evil Smile, news also tell that he'll have a confuse status ailment.