TheRealBobMan

They could always add them back in, but it seems unlikely since they're not listed in the move lists. I would think that they're building the game with whatever moves they want, so there's no real reason to add moves in later. They'd already be in if Arcsys was intending for them to be a part of the game balance. Some characters got all new moves, and some had moves removed that weren't forcebreaks. I think they also mentioned in interviews that they wanted to add more emphasis on the Roman Cancel mechanic. Removing moves that cost 25% to use seems like a way of doing that.

Awesome, thanks dude.

Oh, thought of another I-No question for the guys that were there. Does the follow up to HCL track the opponent's location in any way, or is it always at right about the max horizontal range of the move? Did you see anyone cancel the follow up? I'm wondering if it'd come out yellow or red/purple, or if you just can't cancel that move.

I remembered something silly that happened with a fellow student in a game design class probably over a year ago, and since it's relevant to fighting games, have decided to share it here. I don't remember why it came up, but as we're waiting for the professor to show up, we strike up a conversation and Street Fighter gets mentioned. I tell the guy I'm not a fan of 4, and not so much even a fan of 3rd Strike even though it has some good elements, and mention that I play Guilty Gear because I like the mechanics in it more. Since we're studying design, he asks what's up with SF4 and why I don't like it compared to other fighting games. I mention that I don't like how FADC is commonly used at higher level play but is sort of unnecessarily hard (even compared to FRCs), I don't like the emphasis on defense and positioning when mobility is low compared to airdashers (I come from a Smash background), and I really REALLY don't like how mixup is handled. Some (most I think?) characters don't have standing overheads, and the ambiguous crossups are ****ing stupid since you can have the guy jump in, look like he's going to land in front, actually land in front after his hitbox makes contact with your hurtbox, yet you had to block TOWARD him since he somehow was behind you when he made contact. After my little rant, which is just my opinion (ONE PERSON'S OPINION!) of why I don't like one game compared to another, he says he now never wants to design fighting games because the players are "too elitist and demanding". So, not wanting this to be his last impression of competitive players, since he says that he likes SF4 and think it's a fine game, I ask him about basics. "Just so we're on the same page, you know what I mean when I talk about 'mixups' right?" "No, what's that?" I'm not going to say that an entire community of players has this shallow an understanding or this sort of attitude, but Novril's original post of this thread was addressing this particular problem. A lot of the time people pick up games, have fun, and get into them, without putting any real effort into understanding them. They're "just having some fun", and it's possible because the input/output is pretty straightforward at that level. I hit him more than he hits me and I win. What we'd like is for people to maybe try paying a little more attention and look at the underlying rules that actually make these games deep. Playing at my example's level is probably like playing Angry Birds, when he could have been playing intermediate or high-level street fighter. I might not think it's as good/fun as high-level GG (or BB or Akatsuki or Melee or VOOT or Team Fortress some other competitive game), but I do think that higher level play is more engaging and fun than "mash buttons" play, and would like people to know what that's like. Playing American football at a low level isn't much more than trying to pass the ball and run without getting tackled, but high-level football has strategic depth involving positioning and predicting the other team's play. I think... I've never played at a level above trying to throw the ball in a straight line more than 10ft, but I'm sure people have more enjoyment than I did or they wouldn't be playing it. And if they can learn what the underlying game is like, maybe they'd look at other games and decide they like those games too. If they decide they don't like the game at a higher level, the best thing they can do is move on and find something else that offers more fun. If they really enjoy button mashing they can keep doing that too and I wont complain as long as they tried not mashing those few times. As much as I agree with the posts about the maturity levels and community attitude being a little negative, I agree with Novril that educating new players that take the time to look beyond the button mashing is probably the best thing we can do to find new people to play with. Most of them like the games they play on a level that doesn't offer the potential maximum enjoyment the game can offer. The post was worded a harshly, but that point remains. I'd like to think that while some games fall apart at the highest levels because of a boring dominant strategy, or bugs, or emphasis on skills that don't require player interaction, players are better off finding out about that sort of thing as early as possible so they can find something that's better designed to have fun with. If, after that, they decide they like the game the way it was before they found out it's borked, and handicap themselves to keep playing it, I wont stop them. If some people don't want to put in the effort to play at a higher level I respect that too (I barely have enough time to try to not suck at playing I-No, so I can't really play other fighting games on the side at a level above "pick the easiest character and learn what his/her moves are"). I remember that in the local Brawl community, the players that performed really well tended to stop hosting get togethers centered around playing the game (which is what helped build the community in the first place), and put more emphasis on hosting tournaments out of their houses or a local venue so they could get all of or a cut of the venue fee, and then played predominantly with each other and shared information almost exclusively with each other. This wasn't just 2-3 friends trying to get better at the game together, but generally most of the "top10 in SoCal" status players. When people got access to frame data, they shared part of it but not all of it. There were important system mechanics that tournament winners knew about for years before the information became public. While that's every bit the fault of players that didn't know (for not finding out for themselves - if you play to win you'd probably want to keep secrets) it's really sad that things turned out that way. The game was considered unfun by many players, including those same winners, and people could have made a quicker transition back to Melee or to other games had they known about some of the stupid mechanics. But that would have meant less prize money. As much as I understand playing to win, I'm only going to do that if the game is fun while I'm doing it. If the game sucks when I play to win, and it isn't obvious that it sucks, I'd rather have someone help me find that out so we can play something better. If a game is cool, but there's another cool game over there, I'd appreciate having people show me. If that never happened I'd have never found out about GG. So... Xrd is coming soon, CP is "sort-of" out now (people that follow BB hardcore have it, and people that play it casually or might be interested will get it soon), +R is out on almost everything (hurry up US PSN!). What is everyone doing to find new people to play with? *edit* Oh, by the way, what is the joke about that shirt from Novril's second post? All I know about the Marvel community is Pringles, Salt, Moustaches, and Kusoru won some big tournament with Rocket Racoon.

Did anyone try to cancel stuff into Blitz Shield, like with FDC normals? Did anyone try to RC a Blitz Shield?

Quoting from another thread, and cutting it down to the part you're asking about (make sure to read the whole thread as there's good stuff in there):

Oh damn, so Pot's 2S doesn't vacuum? I can't believe Pot did 50% on Ky with just j.H > 2H > Heat > Extend. I'm going to have to write a song for you about how observant you guys are.

I'm not a BB player, but these sort of apply everywhere, or at least I think they would. 1. If they give you the chance, use a back throw. Now they're cornered. 2. Pushblock to create space, then get out. BB has barrier, GG has faultless, other games have some kind of advancing block or pushblock. Once they whiff something, you have an opportunity to get out via jumping, hitting them in their lag, or whatever else you come up with. 3. If they jump in, walk forward. You have to learn where you can get away with this, but usually if they time a jump-in wrong, you'll go under and cross them up, resulting in blocking the other way with them in the corner, or even their attack whiffing and you getting to punish. Doing it at the wrong time or in the wrong circumstance means getting hit though. 4. Use a reversal. 5. Get them committed to a block string, then Dead Angle / Alpha Counter / Whatever BB calls it when you spend 50% to attack out of block stun.

You know what? I was judging it off of the HCL done at 1:32, but there's one at 0:43 that looks like it still has substantial range. If there's a range nerf, it's probably very minor. For all we know, it could have whiffed at 1:32 because Venom crouched, or it could have been off by 1 pixel. As for the VCL, it's possible I-No jumped back while doing the input. If I compare her position with a freeze frame on j.D and VCL's startup, she's moved backwards and slightly up just before the VCL. I should stop doing this. It's hard not to be excited though.

It looked to me like the hitbox and graphic were smaller when accounting for proportion differences. If that's the only nerf, I'm sort of sad, but it's something I'm totally OK with. I sort of like that I-No's hitboxes suck, so having one of her best ones get a bit weaker is something I'll adapt to. I mean, I'd prefer to have the 632146 input and have the hitbox reach 2/3 screen distance, but if this change helps new players get into a fun character, I'm all for it. If it's still a sort of "intangible" projectile hitbox, we can probably still make good use of HCL Extend and such tricks, though the vertical part of the hitbox seems really small since it kept whiffing. I was a little surprised when I saw the VCL whiff when I-No did j.D > VCL. It looks like the beam doesn't move forward at all, and she only floats forward after it ends. This takes away some of the ambiguity on VCL crossup shenanigans, and gets rid of one of our options for following up a blocked j.D (that might not even combo out of a j.D that hits). Though with that change, maybe there's hope VCL will be lvl 5 again?

I guess I-No can shoot notes out of her crotch like she's blowing bubbles, and Fortissimo can straight up just be her screaming during an orgasm. Why would she of all people need an amplifier? I guess for her respect she'll play a riff with her teeth and then take her shirt off, with her shirt swing having the hitbox. *Shrug* I still don't like the idea. The hat is the best character in the game.

Thanks for all of the info guys! You rock!

1. Character taunts/respects. Are they in the game? Are they different or the same as before? Can you still cancel into taunts and out of respects? 2. Does Faust still say "Donkey Punch"? 3. Does I-No shout profanities or otherwise get her screaming bleeped out when she Bursts? 4. Can you YRC both versions of I-No's slide move (41236S and 41236H), or just the H version like it was before? 5. From about how far away can you hit with I-No's 2S? 1/3 screen? 1/2 screen? 6. Do supers prorate meter gain now, or are they like before where meter gain is unaffected? 7. Does Blitz Shield reduce meter gain? 8. Do projectiles build the meter that replaced the guard bar?

The most important Faust question has not yet been answered. Does he still say "DONKEY PUNCH!"?

Dignity? She's a raging skank, and, ironically, they made her easier. Not complaining though. I-No's playstyle is really cool and I'm glad you don't have to grind for months just to do basics with her anymore. I think it was confirmed at the last test, or even before it, that they were making it so you can mash out of stagger with button presses instead of only using the stick.

Jump Install HCL I actually meant Vertical Chemical Love. Thanks for testing Fortissimo (the air super) though! Did that move make a lot of noise? So yeah, if you see someone else do it or get another chance, do Vertical Chemical Love really high in the air and see if it's still in recovery until landing, or if it's like +R where they allowed it to recover in the air. Oh, I wonder if her airthrow range is back to being good or if it's worst in the game again to compensate for her hoverdash. Could you check how far away you can air throw someone from with I-No? And unrelated to I-No, can you check out characters' taunts/respects? Are they in the game yet?

I wanted to scream "dibs" when I saw that posted screenshot, but I didn't want to get DoT'd in the face. If you get to play I-No again, can you do HCL > YRC > dash? I wanna know if it auto jump installs now. That would be huge news. Does she seem to have the same normals as before? And can you FDC her j.D for that silly float/bounce? Is her note like P note (starts slow, then speeds up), H note (starts fast then slows down), or does it move at a fixed speed? Does it still cap at 5 hits from max distance? If you super jump and do VCL, do you recover in the air in time to do another action like dash or do another normal? Thanks.

I have to work tomorrow until 3PM, possibly until later, but I'm going to try to show up for GG if I'm not out too late. It starts at 4:00PM right? Which means it'll probably start around 5PM or later...

I hate to derail the thread again, but the wiki says the window is 2-3 frames, with no mention of the window changing in the air. The only mention of a difference in the air is that the air blockstun is reduced to 4 frames instead of 2 when SB is used successfully. To get back on topic, the translation of the system mechanics mentions, "While performing an action, movement, or recovery action, you can completely interrupt it." Did anyone try to RC a dash/backdash in the last test? Can you try that out?

Slashbacks aren't exactly easy to throw out... with a window of 2 frames (I think a 3rd strike parry is 8 frames?), you have to know exactly when a move is going to start up. That limits it to a risky guess that the other guy will do what you're predicting / watching for, or a really slow move that you can see start that doesn't have a cancel point on startup. If a move is fast, but slow enough that you can reaction parry, you're opening yourself to be mixed up by not watching for other moves.. Basically, something faster than 12 frames of telegraph time is 99.9% prediction since you almost can't react that fast (shaving a frame or two off is possible). When you're at the 12 frame threshold, it's possible, but you have to be watching for EXACTLY for a specific move, which means you're not watching for any of the other things your opponent can be doing. That is a high risk, let alone missing the window because you mistimed it. If you watch for specifically 1 move so you can slashback it, you're pretty vulnerable to mixup. You can learn to cover your ass and only do it in situations where it's unlikely that they can do anything about the attempt, but even then you're vulnerable to something. Or, you could go balls-in on a guess without trying to watch for the move startup (just go off of opponent rhythm), but that's risky for plenty of other reasons. SBs can be baited. As far as I know parries in 3rd strike have their set duration, and pretty much only Hugo can do something like jab > super throw to bait one. With SB, blockstun is reduced to 2 frames, but if you SB a move that the other guys cancels into another fast move, only a reversal will go through that. And they also have the option to do some sort of other cancel (jump or RC or whatever) to become safe anyway. If you SB a slower move, odds are it's going to be a lvl 5, which means there's 15 frames of block-pause to use to block-confirm the slashback and try to become safe. SB's also telegraph failed attempts, which gives the attacker something to read. They also don't mess with crossup potential like 3rd strike parries do. That whole back/forward thing was silly. It's like... you're going to get crossed up, so hit either direction as if to instant block. Either you block or parry. And it didn't help that combos and block strings didn't work off of a gatling system... in GG you can do the same exact block string with varied timing because you can cancel at any point during active frames, which prevents dial-a-slashback style defense. Didn't 3rd strike have to do that "red parries are parries during block stun which require going back to neutral without getting hit and parrying with a 2 frame window"? I'm not really a 3rd Strike player so I feel uncomfortable making claims, but with what little I know, in theory, it sounds like the mechanic introduced tons of problems, so I can agree. Especially on parries having lots of potential to mess up projectiles. At least there are some projectiles of different speeds which make them harder to react to, and projectiles that have the intended function of attacking in tandem with the user which sort of deals with the problem of not being able to keep out / chipp someone that parries. But anyway, for all we know, the window for BS could be relatively large. It'd still carry the risk of being punished, but it could easily be a lower risk option than SB currently is.

You know, if Yellow FRCs are used for the startup of a projectile, and regular (Red) RCs are what we already know, maybe Purple will cover cancels done on normals that whiff? Was that already accounted for?

My bad, I didn't remember seeing FD in any of the footage that leaked. I also can't read Japanese, so can you point out which section includes FD? I double checked the images and didn't see any green rings, or even images of someone blocking besides the new Blitz Shield image. Is it that section of text between Dust attacks and Bursting? I brought up the differences between FD and Blitz Shield because of their conveyance. Yeah, anyone that wants to play the game at a level above mashing buttons should and can easily look up what stuff does (it can even be included in training mode or something!), but with all the excitement for streams and competition, I could easily see them wanting a mechanic that's a little more self explanatory. There's probably going to be a bunch of details about how BS works just like with FD. It's just easier for someone that knows absolutely nothing to understand "hey, this guy was about to get hit, then he started glowing and the other guy bounced off" vs "this guy was about to get hit, then this green ring appeared and he kept sitting there blocking... what's that green thing even do?". This also brings up something I want to make sure gets tested at the loketest, because it'd probably be really easy to forget. What happens with 2 buttons + forward? Especially when using Heavy as one of the buttons within throw range? Would attacking take preference there, or would you OS this new block mechanic with throw? Or would the game prioritize BS over throwing and attacking? If you start to faultless, then drop to neutral while holding 2 buttons, what happens? What if you press one button to attack, hold it, then press another during the attack?

Hey yeah, mechanically, FD is also done with 2 buttons that aren't D, and there's no mention of FD yet. As it stands, you have to tap down + two buttons. If that's a mistranslation and you can just hit 2 buttons to activate it, I'm assuming there wont be FD. How would the game differentiate between crouching FD and this mechanic? You'd either have to hold downback ahead of time and then press 2 buttons, or release block and then hit down + 2 buttons. If 25% cancels are getting added at the 2nd test, there's no reason to freak out and assume FD is gone. I would guess that they want to try using a different mechanic to see how the public responds, rather than hosting an internal focus test. As much as I really like the depth that the decision to IB vs FD vs SB offers, I could see them replacing FD with this and just having IB in there. It could have enough of a similar function that we wont miss FD if it's really gone. I mean, it could block projectiles besides clashing, and if you clash you're given an opportunity to get out, rather than having to push them out for the opening. Then think of appealing to newcomers... Sure, FD is important and you really want to learn what it does, but are you going to find out that it puts you in more block stun than normal when you first pick up the game? Are you going to realize that the guard gauge doesn't go up when using it? Do you even know what that pink meter under your health is? Even if the lack of chip damage and the extra pushback are things you'd notice right away, a temporary block that forces a clash is pretty obvious by comparison. With the test a few days out there's no point speculating about the mechanic itself though. With the name Blitz Shield and the pictures we have, this reminds me of the Reflector system from Akatsuki Blitzkampf. Except it costs meter to use, you don't auto attack out of it, and the attacker goes into some sort of recovery instead of completing their attack. I'm definitely excited to see how this goes.

Does that mean we finally get Zappa on Thanksgiving because he's a cornucopia of play-styles? *edit* Are you hoping for Xmas Dizzy because you want to unwrap her?

1. Make sure the way you interface with your controller is practiced well. You might be right in assuming that you're hitting down instead of downback, which means you need to grind that out in muscle memory. 2. Learn to time an input to what you see on the screen. It's probably as easy as it sounds, yet different than most expect. It takes the brain a while to respond to seeing stuff happen, so things are happening a little bit earlier than you think, which means you need to press the button/stick slightly earlier than you would expect. I think IB has a 5 frame window, and you might be pressing back closer to the last few frames than the first few frames of that window, which would mean that if your margin of error is a few frames wide, you'd get hit from time to time by pressing it too late. 3. Learn what moves look like. Some moves can't really be IB'd/SB'd on reaction because of their startup, but some moves are slow enough that you can if you know they're coming, and some are slow enough that you can no matter what. When you factor that block strings generally don't have too many branches for some characters, you can get away with just finding the rhythm of the other guy and pressing back to that, erring on the side of being early. If you're too early, whatever, you still blocked, and if the timing was within that 5 frame window (which is plenty big), you're good to go. The thing is, if you're just tapping back, your opponent can vary his/her blockstring to try to mess up your timing, or go for stuff to punish your IB attempts or successes. So while you want to IB stuff to get meter/pulse, sometimes you only want to IB the slow H move at the end of the string or a specific move early in the string that'll leave a gap that allows you throw reversal out of the string, if you notice your opponent varies their blockstrings effectively. Anecdote: I actually backdash a lot when I attempt to instant block, because instinct kicks in and says to block, and then I'm like "I can instant block this no problem" after I've already pressed back once, which means I tap it again, backdash, and get hit. I'm getting better at handling the stick part of playing on a stick, but I still feel more comfortable going for slashbacks in a lot of cases because it's easier for me to press a button when I want, and I can choose to commit or not without having this problem. If backdash is like forward dash, you have a 10 frame window for the input, which means that if you tap back for the IB within 10 frames of starting to block, you'll do something you didn't want. I've heard that you can actually just switch from blocking high to low and vice-versa and it'll register for instant blocks, but all of my attempts at doing this so far result in that not happening, or getting hit. It'd definitely fix my problem if I could figure out why that is. It works for other players. *Shrug*