TheRealBobMan

If your community is based around an arcade, they're probably going to want to get a cabinet anyway. Just learn to play without macros, and maybe invest in a stick if you can afford it. They're totally worth it after you put in the requisite hours to not suck at using one. If you're going to do that, you should probably wait until Black Friday. I remember the Qanba sticks were discounted through some online vendors around that time last year ($129.99 for a dual modded stick with sanwa parts is pretty good). If you're committed to pad, do what Mumm-Ra said. Get the patch anyway. You can always just disable the +R balance changes if you don't like +R (not playing +R because of the macro bug is silly, though lots of people I've talked to don't like +R, so we'll see where that goes I guess...). Unless you're talking about buying the game a second time to get the patch early, in which case I wouldn't recommend it if you're not going to use the primary function of the patch. That's just dumb.

Order Sol: 6P > c.S > sj.S > sj.H > VCL > Pdive > dash j.S > VCL > c.S > j.S > j.H > Kdive 178 damage Alternatively, you can just land after the VCL and catch with c.S into whatever. Both strings seems to be suboptimal, but if there's a way to catch with j.S or j.D after the VCL, we can maybe do better meterless damage than normal. Or it might work out better than normal to go into a dive loop at the end instead of simple knockdown (I'm grinding out those super jumps right now!) Well actually... while this starter isn't ideal (still just figuring out the VCL loop part), 6P > c.S > j.S > j.H > Sdive does 110. 6P > c.S > sj.S > sj.H > VCL does 113. Going into Pdive does less initial damage than landing into c.S, but you do higher damage follow ups sooner (skipping the weak j.S). I think this is still better damage than what we'd normally get. You can also go into Sdive instead of Pdive in the first combo I mentioned, but getting the c.S catch is hard on OS (getting it on Chipp). Essentially, we can use VCL in place of Sdive now. The difference is only 5 more damage (and less meter!), but we get follow ups out of j.D that we didn't really have before, and follow ups to VCL that sometimes go INTO j.D (and back into VCL), which is what we want for damage maximization without meter. Also, the full sexy loop works on Jam. Looks like it should work on all lightweights (sans Baiken until we figure that one out), and maybe 1-2 middle weights if we drop out the c.S > VCL > c.S part. Otherwise the corner push is more beneficial since the damage is negligible or less than what we already had. MORE VS MAY 6P > c.S > j.S > j.H > VCL > j.D (timing on the j.D at the end is really strict) > VCL > c.S > whatever 6P > c.S > sj.S > sj.H > VCL > j.D (easier) VCL > c.S > whatever 6P > c.S (jump install )> sj.S > sj.H > VCL > j.D > dj.H > VCL > j.D (but at this point I can't get VCL to connect... will experiment further and try it on Bridget but this ultra-sexy version probably wont go anywhere. It's not even as damaging as the one before it since going into j.D early leads to more damage, but after putting all this effort in I want some UNNECESSARY FLASH)

I can maybe try when I get home from work. That'll probably be after 8:00PM my time, and you're in New York so that's like 10/11 your time. Also, it'll probably lag. But I need Baiken practice so I don't care.

Can Ky cancel the 1st hit of his 3H into specials/supers? 23 frames on startup is slow enough to react to with a SB if you predict the move (leaving yourself open to other things in the process), but people are generally worried about SB against the second hit, right? Considering the move recovers 3 frames after the second hit, and SB reduces block-stun to 2 frames, the only guaranteed punish would be a throw, but that's not even an issue if 3H is spaced properly. It'll ruin his pressure, but it's not like he's getting punished for using the move.

And I mentioned earlier that you can combo into it off of CH 5H/2H. Also, you can go into this string from stuff other than Stroke(H). I just want to learn the dj.H > late VCL > j.D > VCL > c.S > VCL > c.S part, and Stroke(H) is an easy starter to do that with. I still need to try off of j.S > dj.H, but I know that you can get it off of c.S (against airborne) > VCL > FRC j.D. There's lots of ways to set up this combo (or other efficient variations like the Millia one), so help me experiment. I don't have lots of time or I'd be posting more stuff at once in a more organized fashion. Right now I just want to share what I've figured out to see if anyone else can add to it. Oh, and you can do this off of TK Fortissimo, but it's hard to link j.D unless Fortissimo was done at near minimum TK height. This loop is hard. Some characters are easier than others. There's a very big window going most of the attacks into other attacks, and you generally have to time each hit to a specific frame or two of that window or a hit 3-4 moves down the list wont connect. Vs some characters like Justice and Chipp you have to jump forward both times, but vs May and Bridget you jump forward with j.D and straight up with j.H. May/Bridget seem to be way more lenient to do this on because their hitboxes allow you to use this method. Justice wasn't that bad, but vs Baiken it was like delayed j.D > instant dj.H > instant VCL > j.D just before hitting the ground > late VCL. By the time I get to here, if I've even made it this far, it's hard to time the simple c.S > VCL > c.S! We just got new ways to do meterless corner push. Might as well go all the way and find slightly more optimized meterless character specific damage. We can get better damage if we spend meter, but not by all that much relative to the meter spent. If for no other reason, play around with this combo string because it looks damn sexy. Someone needs to put it in a combo video. *Edit* Realized this will probably work off of CH 6H 2nd hit. Oh the damage! Can't wait to get home! *Edit* This setup works on OS, and while I don't think we can get the c.S > VCL > c.S part, we can for sure get the j.H > VCL > j.D > VCL > c.S. Just follow up into immediate diveloop I guess. Still good damage.

New post for a different combo string while I'm figuring things out, just to keep things more organized. I sort of found this when trying on Baiken last night but didn't really pursue it till now. I can't get the j.H > late hitting VCL > j.D > VCL > c.S > VCL> > c.S into follow-up on some characters, so I figured I'd try something else and got this to work on Millia. Stroke(H) > j.D > dj.H > dj.D > VCL > VCL > c.S > j.S > j.H > Kdive 254 damage Should be able to super jump at the reset and do a dive loop for more damage + meter gain. I'll have to experiment with this on the other characters that the previous string doesn't work on. Also, looks like the difficult combo should work on Chipp, but I keep fudging it. However, even leaving out the c.S > VCL > c.S portion (so the combo is Stroke(H) > j.D > dj.H > VCL > j.D > VCL > c.S > j.S > j.H > Kdive), I was doing over 250 damage. Man this string is hard, but it's really damage efficient for little to no meter depending on the set up. I think it should be possible in any circumstance where you catch with c.S in the corner (like after a basic setup into Sdive) and do VCL > FRC to set up j.D at the right distance. Probably not worth using after you've already committed 25% on something like 2S > HCL > 6FRC6 stuff as you'll probably get better damage for the same meter doing the follow ups we already know, but if you caught them in the air with something and did > c.S > VCL > FRC >j.D, or landed CH 2H > Stroke(H), we can do absurd damage for free in the corner now. And that's on top of all of these corner push set-ups that we can do with double/super jump height VCL > airdash j.K.

The trailer confirms hitstun. This game is already better than Brawl.

Bwah, wrong tab. My bad. Would delete, but I can't.

The only recommendation I have is that if you're learning a move with an FRC before active (like on a projectile) or maybe even as the move goes active, make sure to learn the timing when gatling'd out of attacks of all levels. The hit/block-pause of moves increases by 1 frame per level, from 11 to 15, and that can throw off your timing. When you have to commit your FRC timing to muscle memory, you might get the FRC during your BnB or most basic block string at first because you're grinding that one sequence out, but you'll likely drop it when you need to adapt and do something different. I remember being able to hit 5K (vl2)> HCL > 6FRC6, but then dropping the FRC when doing 2S (lvl3)> HCL when first learning it. DAT 1 FRAME DIFFERENCE

So... I've gotten the following strings to work so far Vs SOL: Mid Screen: c.S > 6P > sj.S > VCL > airdash starts before hitting the ground, didn't combo j.K on Sol, but I might be timing it wrong, or it might combo on other characters (looks like it should on lightweights if not characters with better hitboxes) sj.VCL > recover > j.K > land > c.S > relaunch (experiment for meterless retard 50/50 oki?!) 6P > c.S > j.S > dj.S > VCL > HCL > 6FRC6 > catch (not as efficient as what 9TNine posted for us, but it's flashy looking) Stroke(H) > j.D > dj.S > VCL > airdash j.K catch In Corner: c.S > 6P > j.S > VCL > land > 5P > c.S > relaunch c.S > 6P > sj.S > VCL > land > 5P > c.S > relaunch Stroke(H) > j.D > dj.H > VCL (hits really late) > c.S > relaunch (this looks really sexy by the way, like when Sol does j.D to delayed Sidewinder cleanhit) Stroke(H) > j.S > dj.H > VCL (hits late) > c.S > relaunch *Edit* VS MAY Mid Screen: Stroke(H) > j.D > dj.S > VCL > dash j.K > VCL > c.S > relaunch works if Stroke(H) starts close enough. In Corner: Stroke(H) > j.D > dj.H (jump straight up to make the VCL hit late) > VCL > j.D before landing > VCL > c.S > VCL > c.S > j.S > j.H > Kdive 245 DAMAGE METERLESS FROM A 90 PRORATE STARTER And I didn't go for a complicated knockdown yet!!!!!!!!! BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHA FUCK YOU MAY THIS IS PAYBACK FOR THE AC MATCHUP :yaaay::yaaay::yaaay::yaaay::yaaay::yaaay::yaaay::yaaay::yaaay: Uh... also did: Stroke(H) > j.D > dj.H > VCL > j.D > VCL > c.S > j.S > j.H > Pdive > dash j.H > Pdive > dash j.H > Kdive 245 damage meterless Maybe I'm crazy and mistook the first one for the second? Double checked, they do the same damage. I'm not crazy! First could still lead to more damage if optimized, but the second will yield better meter and is probably easier since it ends there. Anyone with good execution want to try this for me? Stroke(H) > j.D > dj.H > VCL > j.D > VCL > c.S > VCL > c.S > jump-install sj>S > VCL > j.D > dj.H > VCL > j.D > VCL If that even works, you could probably do c.S > VCL > HCL on the end, but it's going to take baby steps to get there. I still can't jump install a super jump off of a single hit like that. Let's see if we can break 300 damage on May without spending meter. *Edit* Thought about it, but that sj.S > VCL > j.D probably wont link. However, I'll start experimenting with FRCs when I get home from work today. Confirmed that VS Bridget in Corner: Stroke(H) > j.D > dj.H (jump straight up to make the VCL hit late) > VCL > j.D before landing > VCL > c.S > VCL > c.S > j.S > j.H > Kdive 250 Damage Timing is way different than May. Feels harder. With May you do the first j.D fast and the j.H somewhat late. With Bridget you do the first j.D somewhat late and the j.H > VCL fast, otherwise the second VCL wont combo out of the j.D catch. I tried this on Pot, Johnny, and RoboKy. Could not get the j.D > dj.H > VCL > j.D string to link. I also experimented with 2 j.Ds, but couldn't get anywhere with that either. If anyone finds anything on that end please let us know. Looks like this stuff will work on at least lightweights, but doesn't work on the heavyweights. Either the VCL hits immediately or it whiffs. I would think that's just hitbox specific, but I haven't tested thoroughly enough yet. *Edit 10/2/13* Ok, just going to list the damage for this combo on each character I can get it on. Damn man, this combo is ****ing hard on some characters: Stroke(H) > j.D > dj.H (jump straight up to make the VCL hit late) > VCL > j.D before landing > VCL > c.S > VCL > c.S > j.S > j.H > Kdive May: 245 Damage Bridget: 250 Damage Justice: 226 Damage Baiken: Messed up the knockdown at the end, but did 270. Looks like a fancy ender off of c.S > sj.S is going to be necessary, but will probably get close to 300. But it's seriously ****ing hard to do this combo on her. I wasted so much time on it that I didn't get anything else done, other than Justice. : ( Unrelated: Also, while people probably knew that j.S > dj.D crosses up (I didn't till now, or at least didn't remember), HCL hits on the end of that with the buffed hitbox. While I suppose Fortissimo would be the best combo option if you had the meter, HCL is great for making it more safe if blocked!

I can't wait to get home from work so I can see if I can use more j.D in my combos by doing that VCL > dash > j.K > j.S > VCL follow up. I experimented with stuff like Stroke(H) > j.D > dj.D > VCL > 6FRC6 > FFVCL, but couldn't get anywhere with it. I might be able to keep the flag flying by doing this, and without spending meter! : ) Oh man, the corner push. YEEEEEEAAAAAAAAA *Edit* Aww man, more overtime, so not doing this tonight. If someone else plays with this stuff, please see what you can get by putting more j.D into combos, since it does 40 damage. I would think j.D > dj.H > VCL might keep them low enough that the dash > j.K would link, for starters. Thanks a ton 9TNine!

I couldn't make it to this one. When's the next one?

Eh... don't go that far. The game is only dead if people stop playing it. Considering the game isn't even out yet, this attitude makes me pretty sad. As far as Baiken goes, I'm only concerned because while it's something that's potentially overpowered, it's also something that could potentially lead to degenerate gameplay. Baiken wont always be able to do those counters consistently without the macro, but the ability for her to guarantee a counter attack against anything she blocks if her execution is perfect, even if the other player tries to bait it, is just bad design. Buffing her counters was a good idea. Sakura going from frame 17 to frame 10 is overdoing it though, considering she can do counters during block pause, and the block pause on moves is 11-15 frames based on attack level. Frame 14 or 15 would probably have been a substantial enough buff since she could guarantee counters against lvl 4 and 5 moves, but it's sort of dumb to commit to those since they tend to be slow and their use is pretty much asking Baiken to hit you anyway. You're potentially punished for trying to hit her now, and draining the enemy life bar is the goal (really it's just to not have yours drained), so gameplay might shift toward out-turtling the defense/counter character . It might be effective to just try to chip her to death with projectiles, to force her to approach and use counters other than Sakura and Zakuro. Even better if you bait her into throwing out moves that you can DP through or something. Sort of sucks for I-No since we can't really counterpoke in that matchup, but hey, she can't counter what she can't block right? Even in the best case scenario where this is just overreacting, it's probably going to lead to boring gameplay. I'd love if it didn't though. Sorry Star, everyone is just going to hate Baiken more. Dry their tears and salt your favorite snack with the residue. If you think about it, Baiken might not be as bad as old Eddie. He could put you in a block string, forcing you to play his game of "be frame perfect when blocking to not get hit and die". Against Baiken, she gets to punish us for attacking if she's near frame perfect which is bogus, but at least we're playing the neutral game trying to get in without getting ****ed, rather than being on the receiving end of Eddie's drill unblockables. Eddie can run his stuff off of rote memorization and muscle memory once he has the initiative, but Baiken has to do her stuff reactively, which is harder. That's even with the macro bug, since we get to use high/low/throw/crossup. So anyway, the macro bug is dumb. I wont use it unless I'm messing aorund, and part of me even wants to play a scrubby "ultra-defense" Baiken for lulz since I tend to do well at frustrating people by being a brick wall. I'll learn to time her counters with that frame-perfect accuracy though! (If I can find time to play someone on the side since I don't get anywhere near enough practice with I-No as it is) I'm probably not going to enjoy how effortless the game is for other people when I put in work, but I main I-No, so I don't have a right to complain anyway right? Hard work isn't a problem for me or I'd switch mains, and I'm not going to resent a newb for using the macro bug. But eventually their training wheels have to come off... Remember that THE GAME ISN'T FUCKING OUT YET. I'm fortunate enough to live within a reasonable distance of two arcades. One of them I don't really like, and the one I do like actually has an AC machine. They're also saving money to buy a +R board and an Xrd board. I know most places don't have a GG machine, but if you're lucky enough to be near one, this bug wont be an issue because people wont use macros if they want to be able to compete. For people that need to play pad, customizing controls is enough. Whether or not a community bans it, most players are going to be comfortable. If people want to be better than casual at this game, they're probably going to want to practice with whatever conditions will be used in competition. If some competitions ban the macro, we're good. If some competitions are on the arcade machine, we're good. I wont get on someone's case for using the macros at first (I'll honestly have fun with trying to get past a consistent stream of bullshit), but eventually, after I've gotten to know one of these players and I'm sure they wont quit from being berated, I'll tease them a little and call them a wuss. At least locally, they're going to HAVE to adapt. If I go to a community that allows the macro bug, I'll just try to outplay the people that rely on it. From a playing to win perspective we should all use it if it makes doing that complicated stuff easier. Except we're eventually going to be in a situation where we can't, so we shouldn't rely on it and instead should learn to do this shit manually, so the play-to-win thing is really to not use it. If you don't plan on trying to improve enough to beat players that are better than you, you don't need to worry about it. If you're one of the better players, you also don't need to worry about it that much. You should assume the other guy might have the potential to do that shit 100% of the time consistently anyway, just to prepare yourself better to deal with the unknown. At first glance and from what I've been hearing from some people, +R looks like it's worse than AC. But again, IT'S NOT FUCKING OUT YET. Some of us have it because yeah, if you want to be a dick and shit on my motivational speech, the JP version is out and we can get it. But it's also really fresh and not everyone even has it. Give it time and put work into it? The game might turn out to be a lot of fun, and if it's not, we can all play AC/Xrd/Skullgirls. This sort of shit always happens when the new game from a series comes out right (I think at one point OS was considered top in AC)? Just keep playing it and let's see where that takes us. We're playing to have fun first and foremost right? We'll worry about the game being dead when the game stops being fun and/or awesome. And if you tell me this game isn't awesome I will shit in your breakfast. If people keep playing with this bug and find new issues, I hope they post it. The sooner we know about something potentially broken, the sooner we know if we should move on to something else. ArcSys also has the ability to fix these issues now without having to make us wait 2 years for a new version, so that helps everyone. We just have to be a responsible community and pass on this sort of info to them. Also, let's not assume that something broken will be found just because this bug exists.

That sounds good. Ok, I'll give it a shot.

Well, it's sort of ok to not do OTG stuff off of Slidehead now since you lose the ability to do it for free in +R, so you'll be forced to compensate by playing well in other areas, but not doing something strong because it's "too good" or "cheap" or "easy to abuse" is just limiting your play. You'll still be able to do damage off of Slidehead when +R finally comes out, but you'll have to spend meter on it. Hopefully you wont see that as a problem. Blocking 6H normally in AC means that you have to have nearly perfect timing to backdash and not get hit. You can't jump to get out because of jump startup - you'll still be on the ground in jump startup frames when the unblockable part goes active. If you IB it your window to backdash is better, and I-No is one of the fast jump characters so she might be able to 1-frame jump and then dash in, but it's hard to be consistent at. I-No does have the ability to use HCL/VCL since they're frame-1 airborne, but the input is even harder than backdash, so it's not that reliable. Generally speaking, blocked 6H to Slidehead is a really strong trap, and if you're not always using it, you can get away with using it. If you go into megafist/hammerfall/heat knuckle frequently enough, it'll scare them into not always backdashing or trying to jump > punish. I think it's not as good of a trap in +R though, so it's probably a good thing that you don't rely on it. : ) It's good that you tried to use 6H FRC PB though. That online lag just makes the whole experience lame for everyone. : (

It probably just wasn't as big a deal back then. Arcsys decided it was a good idea to give Baiken two meterless counters that are faster than frame 11 in +R. She could already counter during any move's block-pause using Baku with or without the macro bug, but force breaks cost meter so it's not so bad. *Shrug* Also, you can totally just learn to do that double butterfly stuff consistently without this macro. Hell, here's a video of triple butterfly!

I'm pretty sure it wont get patched. They probably know about it if it's been in the game this long, and if they haven't fixed it, it's probably because they use the arcade standard there and don't care. They didn't fix crashes and random music select (this is Guilty FUCKING Gear, you better damn well make sure the music works!), so they wont spend extra money to patch this. Especially with Xrd coming soon, and a million other fighting games in simultaneous development. Even though they're on a new engine, making it unlikely for this bug to return, I'd still feel better knowing that someone contacted them about this bug to prevent them from releasing it in Xrd. I mean, modern Call of Duty has legacy bugs from ****ing Unreal 2 or some shit, so I wouldn't be surprised if something insane happened here.

OoOoO, that sounds fun. I need to play with j.D FDC more. : ) And yeah, I should have specified that using notes is part of scaring people into blocking. I don't see that much in person (when I do it's usually the same people always just mashing H in block strings), but I always get thrown going for that stuff online, so I know exactly what you're talking about. My bad. And yeah, Vosetri's post about j.D also helps scare people into not mashing throw. And also meaty j.K into j.D. And land > j.D for wtf lulz action, when j.D beats some of their ground moves (like say when you're doing shenanigans against Sol and he knows enough to block rather than have VV baited, but also knows enough to just 5K since it's fast enough to beat our stuff once he's confirmed we landed, and then your random j.D after landing beats the 5K). I also like to spam Fortissimo on oki to see if I can bait throws with it (or any non-DP). That tends to stop that BS immediately. I tend to overdo it though, so I need to break that habit. At least it doesn't prorate meter gain, and it gives us another mixup when blocked. I need to work IAD pressure string tick-throws into my game. Before the airdash changes in +R, you could do 66956 j.K > j.S > j.K > j.P, and then do j.D or land and 5P to bait something that beats the j.D. That itself wasn't a strong mixup, but you also had j.K > j.S > j.H (whiff landing) > 2K/throw. Now with the airdash changes you'll float longer and either have to delay your air string to get that to work, or would have to do something like j.S > j.K > j.S > j.H (whiff landing) or j.K > j.S > j.K > j.P > j.H. I feel like that's way too telegraphed though. What made the first setup I mentioned scary was that you'd condition them to watch for j.D so they could reaction punish it, but then land early. If they're not mindlessly mashing a reversal out during the string, but actually watching for the j.D like you want, you can trigger the mental refractory period with this. It's like a weird brain lag where you don't even realize you're lagging, whereas normally you can tell if you've reacted late after training your reaction time. It's a strong mixup by itself to go into low/throw out of nowhere, but you can also fuck around with frame traps off of this. So let's say you were going to throw, but you do 2P to tick throw with. You can probably say **** this and go for another dash in j.S to get an unprorated overhead starter, or if you're really a douche do another landing j.H into 2S (just so it hits them that they misguessed your actions so bad that you just danced in their face for a full second without them doing anything - hurt their morale). They'll still be reacting to "where'd that 2P come from?" and behave according to that situation when you start, so they'll react late to seeing you start dashing again and start blocking high as you start 2S. The mental refractory period is the sort of thing that can requires a specific reaction to a stimulus, and then a distraction. If they're just going off of anticipating you doing high/lows and trying to block, you'll mess them up, but the best reward is just the tick throw or the low (if you go for the fancy stuff they'll just keep blocking and odds are you'll just let them get away with it). If they're just going to DP out, that's also usually not enough because they're committed to the act of "fuck you" rather than reacting appropriately. You have to catch someone committing to blocking until that specific opportunity to get out, and then fake that opportunity into something unexpected. They go "I need to deal with this unforeseen threat" while you're doing something else already. Now, if they were going to just mash DP and you expected that, of course just land into block. They wont react to seeing you waiting and will just DP out against your block. But I find that this sort of strategy tends to be somewhat weak since skilled players usually find option selects that act as fail-safes against this sort of conditioning, or they'll just know that you're conditioning them and wont fall for it. Having lots of variance in your approach makes these sorts of strategies stronger, since they have less pattern recognition to go off of to keep up with you, and feel pressured to commit to a high-risk punish when they have few experiences with the prior mixup. And then of course newbs will just mash DP or hold back, so trying to get fancy doesn't really work because they're not trying to react. It also doesn't work when the other player gets stubborn. When it works though... high damage option mixup when you would have only gotten away with 2K/throw. Anyway, if you guys have any tips on what to do with IAD pressure strings now that I-No's airdash is different, let me know. I need mixup tricks for that stuff too, since airdash options are still good for baiting backdashes and such.

I had this part at the end, but I moved it to the top: The more I watch these, the more I feel like the biggest problem is the 5Ps and the lack of note on oki. I'd write up something you need to do, and then I see you do it a few rounds later. The lack of confirmed damage hurts you, and the lack of keeping initiative after knockdown because you're letting him disrespect your oki hurts you. Learn to time the meaties better, and use your notes more. That's the most important thing. If you want to read the rest of this go ahead, but I was writing stuff as I was watching, so you're pretty good about doing the things I was saying to do. I'm actually going to delete parts of my post that I feel you did well already. And then it's like... you're not adapting to him adapting... you're sort of letting him lead the match. The 5P on wakeup stuff is just you timing your oki wrong. If you're going for j.K you should start it a bit earlier to make sure he can't do that. As far as backdash bait, I know there are stronger backdash specific baits, but I tend to try to land early such that I'll have time to react and just poke the recovery, which also serves to block Giganter reversal, and avoid HPB reversal. You can also just do a late j.D after feinting like you're going to land, or even just do Fortissimo oki. You get your mixup if blocked, you recover in time to avoid the PB after the backdash depending on timing, and on hit you do big damage. Honestly, there are weaknesses to these options too, but I get away with it. Just make sure you're unpredictable enough between a meaty landing and landing to bait stuff, and make sure you have notes covering you where applicable. Late dash to j.H can also work, but only if you've scared them into blocking. If he's going to disrespect you with wakeup 5P that wont work. If he's scared enough to block or backdash you attempt to throw that backdash, and land into a punish if that fucks up. Or if he just blocked, you'll land into a mixup. Hell, do Fortissimo oki once in a while just to screw over those 5Ps, and confirm into big damage. That'll scare him into doing something else. When I play against Pot I try to zone way harder. Shoot notes over his head and drop them on him, or sometimes on his feet. You can bait him into doing something other than FDB once you've convinced him it wont work on your notes, and then safely HCL to knock him down, shoot a note he has to block, and then get in. Part of keeping him from using hammerfall and FDB on everything is dancing around at that range where he has to take a risk to hit you (something like 2/3 screen). You can shoot a note or HCL from here if you're being cautious and watching his movements, and if his risk is successful he gets to knock you down or get in close at best. Otherwise, you maintain positional advantage. F.S can work sometimes if you think he'll stick a hitbox into it, but at the range where you'd win when he sticks a hitbox out, he's going to want to slidehead for position reasons, or just FDB in anticipation of HCL. Just make sure you've done something to pressure his position, like shoot a note over his head, before you move in. When you dance in a little closer, don't take unnecessary risk. Never just IAD in without a note protecting you. Except for the times you know it'll work. Just get in with like j.P and do stuff like 5P/2P on the ground, going into like 2K. Land early, backdash. Land early, throw some pokes, get back out. I don't like to go for damage unless it's off of a knockdown. My neutral game is to play low risk and go for knockdowns, then shoot a note and try for something when he has to block. If that fails, I tend to safely back out. Just keep in mind that it's not the same as running away, since he can bait and punish needless backdashes with 6H / Megafist / Hammerfall, or do Heat Knuckle if you IAD away from point blank. Continued pressure is good once in a while once you've frustrated them and taken a big lead, since you're not dead if they guess right. You just wont have many chances after that. You also didn't confirm into damage in a lot of setups. It's online play so I'll blame it on that. Just make sure you get strong at this for offline games. It's super helpful vs Pot since he has so much endurance. Man, the more of your video that I watch, the more I see you're generally doing the stuff I'm writing as advice. I'll try to be more specific about this particular Pot player. 1. He's not doing 6H > slidehead when you block. Did you condition him to stop doing it because you always get out, or does he just not know it's a strong trap? Since you're getting hit trying to IB it sometimes, just block and backdash, or block > whatever against what he does. IB backdash is important, but if he's not using slidehead, what's the point? 2. You get jump-checked by his 2D quite a bit out of 2S. I know you're avoiding Pot Buster, but sometimes you even do this after you've faultlessed, which increases your block stun. You're not going to be able to jump. In this case, you have to either try to backdash it, or just commit to blocking. You can't really do this on reaction, but at the ranges he gets the 2S vacuum in some cases, you should know he can't Pot Buster you anyway. Also, while he can special cancel 2D in +R, he can't in AC. Since you're still playing that, you don't have much to be scared of when committing to blocking 2D since it's -2 on block. 3. Really, on oki, use note more so he can't backdash or 5P. If you can't really do a note at that range and have it be effective, then back up and do it and just return to neutral game with an advantage. It sucks, but it's better than getting punished by his backdash. Just... damn, you get so many knockdowns that you don't use note on. You could also try dash in VCL FRC, since VCL is 11 frames active, if you want to dash in without note. 4. Land early on approach into 6P just a little more. He doesn't use hammerfall that often, so stop him from disrespecting your oki with that stupid 5P. 6P through it and go into damage and knockdown. At max range (as if trying to hit his hand as he sticks it out), you can probably go into 2S and have it connect before hammerfall anyway if you're scared of that. I noticed you tried a few times and got hit by FDB, but don't let that scare you into not trying it when you think he'll do 5P. Use note more in neutral too. You use HCL to zone quite well in the middle matches, but you'd get away with it more if you locked him down with notes that he can't FDB. If you land HCL and see that full-screen knockdown, shoot Hnote. You tend to just dash in. Really break the habit in this matchup.

Thanks for testing that. I wasn't sure if the above knees invul was good enough, but I've been AA'd by Slidehead before. Also, I didn't think a jump-based option select would work like that with a projectile. That's pretty cool. Dammit, this bug is terrible. It's almost as bad as the lack of random music select on PS3! WTF ARE YOU DOING ARCSYS?!

In that case reversal Slidehead. He committed to doing another butterfly so he's going to get knocked down since he's on the ground. I'm pretty sure Slidehead will still go under a meaty butterfly in +R. Failing that, just block the first one, slashback or IB the drop. Giganter reversal to negate them if he has meter to burn. POTEMKING ****ING BACKDASH. I swear, there are options to deal with these things. The only thing that doesn't have an answer so far is Baiken's counters, and that's her problem, not the bug's. It's just better for our player communities to try to stifle easymode use of something that's borderline overpowered than to ban Baiken or do something else. And I think I'm totally OK with people doing this to me with macros even in tournament just because I'd want to try to learn to deal with it in case someone learns to do it without macros. Can someone put together some videos of the bug, and can ElvenShadow translate up something to send to Arcsys to make sure they know about this? It'd suck if this came back as a legacy bug in Xrd.

Doesn't Pot have FDB? Can't he slidehead under it? It's a lvl 1 move with 21 startup and 48 recovery. Even spaced perfectly, I'm sure there's a gap of a least 4 frames somewhere for FDB. Not that it matters since I'm still for banning after confirming what Baiken can do with it. Also, my example from earlier with the marathon sucked, but I wasn't thinking enough at the time and my lunch break ended before I could refine that part of my post. I figured I'd rather post something stupid and correct it sometime later than lose the post I spent my lunch on. And now this break is over so I still can't correct it. Uh... take it easy on Thanatos? Seems like some major angry mob brain going on at the moment.

THANK YOU FOR CONFIRMING THIS HAVE A BAG OF MONEY!!!! THANK YOU FOR CONFIRMING THIS HAVE A FAT FREE YOUGURT!!! (I hope someone gets the reference) I agree with ElvenShadow that it's not as strong for Justice as people think, and I'm astonished that more people aren't saying this is broken on Baiken's end. It's something she can already do, but it's way higher risk without this bug. Baiken should be the center of discussion until someone shows more concrete video evidence that this lets Justice break a matchup specifically by letting 2 nukes of the same type stay on the screen. And even in that case, while I'm from a community that would ban stuff to try to make some matchups more fair (stages with walk-off edges in Smash to prevent Fox having 10-0 and 9-1 matchups with infinite waveshine easy kills), if Justice got some really lopsided advantages, I'd still probably tell people to learn another character if they were that stumped by being zoned. Counterpick Pot, use FDB/Slidehead. Problem solved. Anyway, I'm probably pro-ban after confirming what Baiken can do with this (I still want to see it in action if anyone is dead set on trying to cheese a tournament). Even lvl1 moves are unsafe, and if I remember correctly, RCs come out after hit/block pause ends. Try it with a clean-hit sidewinder. You're almost forced into never using mid attacks, because it's stupid to use anything that Baiken can guarantee blocking if she can guarantee a counter. She can't counter what she can't block, right? Maybe Millia could deal with this, and Pot will probably still have the advantage (did that change in +R?). As much as I'm for letting newbies have an easier time starting out playing on pad, I'd rather tell them to suck it up than expose them to potentially unfun matchups because of the bug. I bet Koichi will find something for I-No. And then he'll figure out how to do it without the bug. , but I repeatedly said execution was a determining factor in the relations between players, i.e., who is better and who is worse. I just don't think execution factors into game balance (i.e., matchups, tiers, power of a character's tools). It looks to me like you guys are actually agreeing. Thanatos is saying that difficulty should not be considered a valid way of balancing something strong. Take VV, make it an IK without the GG style penalties, and stick it in another fighting game. Giving it some bogus 45348348348364384 input wont make it fair. He's acknowledged (from what I remember) that there are balance factors involved, like blocking while charging May's dolphins. If Daisuke invented an interface device that looks like Sol's limiter headband and interprets your thoughts instantly and accurately as inputs, and then designed a game where one player got to use that and the other guy had to run a marathon before his would work, it wouldn't really affect the balance of the game. It'd just be a shitty game because only people who can run marathons could be player 2. Not everyone wants to play that game because not everyone wants to put forth the training effort.

Can someone please clarify whether or not Baiken's counters work during block-pause? I'm positive I've read that this is how it works in numerous places on dustloop, but dustloop has been wrong before. Since both characters normally are not moving during block-pause, even a lvl 1 jump cancelable move is not safe if Baiken's timing is correct when starting the counter since Sakura will go active before they can jump+block. Recovery+active frames wont even matter. If they made Baiken's counters faster, maybe they changed how they work without telling anyone. I-No's VCL got changes that weren't mentioned so I wouldn't be surprised. And can someone confirm whether or not Justice gets to keep using her normals while holding a macro button down to keep nukes on screen? I actually got an answer from a friend yesterday, but since I'm in here and not seeing people posting crucial information about these bugs, it's really hard to take the "this is broke" arguments seriously.

I asked a friend a few things about this last night but already forgot one point. Let's say you're using this bug with Justice. If you hold down the macro button (we'll go with PKS), do your normals and other moves come out when tapping the corresponding button, or are they still unuseable since you're technically already holding down PKS? If Justice gets to keep nukes on screen and still use her normals that's probably enough. I might not be too worried about Justice (though I might support a ban if she still has her great normals and special moves while nukes are out), but I don't want to play against a May that has multiple dolphin hoops out and still has access to her moves. I have some Justice experience, but my May experience hits a little closer to home. It was already a hard matchup in AC, and thinking about that machup (or even the improved +R matchup) with May having her normals and dolphin hoops controlling space is exactly the kind of matchup specific problem I mentioned earlier. Then again, May/I-No was like a 7:3 and I didn't complain much before. For now I'd tell people to suck it up and try to figure out a way to beat these tricks. Justice is still new, and I doubt anyone here has played a decent Justice that used this trick, rather than just experimenting for a match or two against someone by mashing 2 while holding a macro button. Bans are pretty serious, so I would think people would test things a bit more thoroughly before going nuts? I'm definitely going to ask my friend to mess around and help me test this since he subs Justice now, but we're both really busy (he started school and I'm getting a bunch of overtime). "It's not humanly possible otherwise to release and press the corresponding button in 1 frame, much less do it every single time without fail." While it's extremely difficult, I don't want to see people say it's impossible unless there's a way to prove it's impossible. Especially not this soon after a bug like this has been discovered. Someone already bought up that Bridget bug that Ruu or whoever uses, which is some kind of evidence saying that it is possible. Also, can we please stop with the "this is broken because you're dumb / it's obviously broken" posts? Some people are making really good arguments for a ban, and those posts aren't helping them.