Isorropia

I think what Ve means is that people are accustomed to ending strings with moves that are say, -1 on block, which in all cases is safe in BB. But tager with a 4f 360B could IB and punish the blockstring, which is safe against all other characters. This is in a similar way to, eg, SF4 where spds are 2f and thus can punish things that normal chars (with 3f jabs) cannot. But then yeah, spacing could make it whiff anyway.

They're pretty decent overall, one thing though is...2D already works like that. I just tested in training mode, you can indeed get frame adv from it by hitting from further away. Frame data agrees, just says it inflicts 34f blockstun with 10 possible active frames. Would definitely love it to be faster on startup though. Also love the hammer suggestion, in situations like footsies vs ragna where you can get CH 5B>236A>236A, it would be awesome to get oki from that rather then let them airtech away. Definitely agree on taller 5C hitbox, when I try to use it to stuff jumps (esp. when I have them in corner) it just doesn't hit and that makes me sad.

You're confusing whether a matchup is interesting with whether it's easy for you to win. If tager could approach (with the threat of an anti-projectile spark) then the matchup would become more interesting because as tager approaches both characters would be using moves in their current arsenal to beat the opponent. This is in contrast to tager having no approach, and lambda having full access to her entire arsenal. So uh...yeah, it would be objectively more interesting if both people got to play in the matchup. Overstating the badness of the matchup a bit, but if you don't see how letting tager do more then hold back makes it more interesting then....:/

Uh, currently the matchup is as boring as it can get. Tager has literally no options to approach lambda, or make her come to him. His best shot, spark bolt, will in most cases be CH on startup from all the swords that lambda is throwing from full screen with impunity.

Er...yeah, that's what I do. I assumed that was what Osuna was referring to since 5A still cancels to B+C, but not to 360s. And 6A > B+C isn't possible. >.>

You can already get that effect if you spend meter though. Really long combo > GF RC 6A > faster than normal throw is one of my favourite resets, hitstun decay allows you to throw a lot earlier than people expect.

Throw would go pink. Throws are techable until they've been out of hitstun (which GF is) until....er...5 or 6 frames after, something like that. BB is HELLA lenient with escaping tic throws. >.>

I think having magnetism on 5C is a bit overboard. While indeed, it could help, from a design perspective it's a bit messy. Having magnetism attached to C moves would mean tager could just screw with everybody's spacing attempts at neutral, leading to a very strange footsies game in any matchup where tager is involved. And to be honest it wouldn't be much fun to fight against.

Nah, I think we're all aware his CA is awful. Also I wouldn't necessarily call what tager does after a 4D (or similar) 'mixup'. Mixup would infer that the attacker is in firm control and is making the defender guess to avoid damage. Tager's is just rock paper scissors where if he guesses the wrong option of the 3 then he gets sent back to full screen against the zoner he spent all match trying to get in against.

The essence of jump prevention is making it so that, if the opponent tries to jump when they shouldn't, they pay for it. Only tager's 6A actually fulfills that role, all his other AUB moves....whiff on an opponent jumping back. (5C bigger vertical hitbox would be nice but I doubt it'll happen). What would be better is to keep them from even jumping in the first place, like every other character in BB can do by using low attacks. Basically against ragna/makoto/anyone really, you wouldn't ever dare just hold up-back mindlessly while they're blockstringing you, but against tager, outside pointblank range there just isn't any real threat. Worst you'll take is 3C > GF (where 3C is punishable on block) or yomi collider (where if the yomi fails it's a free combo against tager). It's been mentioned earlier, but essentially tager - the grappler - has one of the weakest close-range games in BB. (Well maybe saying that is a bit extreme....but still.)

It's generally accepted that Mu, hazama, lambda, arakune are varying levels of incredibly bad. Like if you're playing someone of equal skill you're gonna have a reeeeeally hard time winning.

Assuming no magnetism, you can't techtrap from it. Air techs have ~10f invuln, and by the time that wears off they're well out of AC's range. And even with magnetism, if you're timing an AC to catch forward/back air techs, a late neutral tech will let them score a free CH against you....not a great situation. If they don't tech at all then yeah, you can take the ~2k blue beat combo from it. As for 360B, it actually works on most of the cast surprisingly. Of course the micro walk isn't easy, but it and its slight variants give the 4.8k midscreen vs the following: NO, TK, LI, LA, TG, VK, TS, HZ, RG, JI, MU, MK, RC And when I say dumb it's like....say a noel player does an assault through, hoping to catch you trying to punish drive strings. You block it. It's -9 on block. If you're anyone but tager, you can probably do a 5B into whatever you do midscreen, getting, say, ~2k damage. Tager gets 4.8k in the same situation. Tager's ability to punish mistakes is too much for new players to deal with (and hence they think tager is overpowered and etc) but doesn't really help that much at high level play (because people just don't make those sorts of mistakes often). So that's why I'd like lower damage from throws but better jump prevention and longer range combo confirms.

Tager having AUB 5A would actually be a nerf. :/ It doesn't 'stuff jumping', you don't get combos from air hit 5A/5B, so I wouldn't consider landing a jab and then watching them tech away to safety useful. It wouldn't stop them jumping because you're not actually gaining anything by hitting them. It's much better to have them block it in the air and then fall into a mixup when they hit the ground. Also people complain about pot buster all the time. Mainly the damage+oki aspect of it, but I'm sure there are complaints about its startup as well. imo tagers grabs and etc are fine atm (in fact, I think 4.8k+oki off 360B is excessive and should be toned down. Especially if it were lowered to 4f/5f as you suggest, it would become even dumber for punishes). What tager needs is....to be potemkin. To have long range lows which lead to damage or oki. And since BB techrolls ruin oki and gadget finger is no replacement for real oki....yeah, longrange lows that lead to damage would be sweet. Also slidehead CA would be great. Untech knockdown after blocking projectiles, but also untech knockdown if you hit the CA normally (I assume osuna had that in mind as well). Frame -ve on block of course, like other CAs, but really, if they couldn't techroll and were forced to get up in place.....oh man, that would be fun.

Well in BB if you get hit you'll prolly end up in the corner, especially against litchi and ragna. There are a few things you can try, one of which is backdash, tager's backdash has quite a few invulnerable frames so it can make the other character's attack whiff. In the corner you won't really go anywhere either so against people who rush in recklessly you can get a 360 punish and get out of the corner. Otherwise block really patiently and look for an opportunity to 5A or 2A antiair out of their pressure when they try to go in for another round. But ultimately, just be patient. Block low, watch for the overheads. As you play more you'll learn to recognise the startup animations of overheads more easily and if you learn gatling paths you can know which moves they can overhead after.

Sorry, when I said projectile I was assuming they were out of range for the 720, I was using it for the point of saying the 6th frame isn't truly invuln. If they're in range then yeah they get grabbed. And with jayoku, as far as I know the issue is that holding a 720/360B isn't meaty (anyone confirm?). If you record a jayoku coming out, keep trying to 360B it. If you hold before he does it you eat a CH, but if you time it right (so that 360B goes active on jayoku's first active frame) you'll throw him out of it. Also you can B+C throw him out just as the hitbox starts. Hard to time but if you try it out in training mode you'll see what I mean. It's weird and...yeah.

5CC > A lobelia has no gap between it even on IB. But if they're trying to frame trap with it, sure. From the rachel matchup thread:

Against grounded opponents you can work with that assumption - essentially the throw will trade with an attack and throws always win in a trade (like throwing jayoku). But that extra 6th frame of 'invuln' only applies if you trade with whatever they're doing, if there's a projectile or aerial attack hitting on that 6th frame then you'll get hit.

His j.B is amazing, but it's only clashing when opponents do their anti-air too early and the pure hitboxes of both moves collide. If they do their antiair later then they'll still be invulnerable to your attack but will manage to reach your vulnerable hitbox.

Gadget RC collider (gadget flinger): In CS2 you have to do the collider earlier. But imo this makes it easier actually. >.> Like 5D, gadget RC 6A timing changed since 6A is faster now.

That setup is easy to escape...just airtech however you like (especially if you tech late) and then double jump, airdash, aerial dp, aerial j.A (back/forward tech), or just don't tech at all. Virtually the only way it will actually hit is if they tech and then do -nothing-.

He still gets 100% curse meterless from airthrow, 6A, 2A, CH j.D, probably others.

Frame data says unblockable shippu is about 93f after the flash, couldn't you just tech and punish with 720, or 5A/5C etc? I was under the impression that you couldn't really set up into the super as hakumen since it takes so long to charge.

Essentially the 360A gaps become 720 gaps, 360B gaps become 360A gaps, and everything else disappears. Basically stick to IB 720ing in the gap between 5A/2A and whatever they throw out after the jab, or lazy jumpins into blockstrings.

Without D stocks she can't cancel her DP's into anything - just block and 360B them. Otherwise, during your pressure try doing a charged 6A, it works well against people who are DP happy. Also her shield rushes are -5 on block so you can 720 them normally or IB 360B. Under pressure you've got your work cut out for you, she got a lot of frame data buffs that made her pressure tighter, in addition to the IB nerf. Typically you'll just have to block intelligently, learn where your opponent goes for risky stuff (eg charge cancelling, dashing in, anything that resets pressure) then you get out at that point. So, for example, if the tsubaki's you play like to do some jabs, then dash in and do more jabs or throw, learn where they tend to do it and try 5A/360A to break their pressure. Hope that helps.

Yeah it can be 6B instead of 2B, but you'll find that's really a training mode combo in the sense that if you go for it in real matches it won't work 100% of the time. Spacing off, certain chars have smaller hitboxes etc etc. 2B is just more stable.