Isorropia

Yeah, it's weird because you can actually RC at different times during the gadget animation. For timing's sake I tend to RC when he brings his arms back for the pose, then do a slightly slower than as-fast-as-possible collider. >.>

I think it's worth mentioning that in Any 6 hit+ combo, Gadget Finger RC, delayed 6A>2C the 2C can be substituted for a 360B. Especially if you do a full length optimal combo like 2B > 2C > AC > AC whiff > 6C > j.2C > 2B > 2C > AC > Bgadget then the hitstun of 6A will be scaled back so much that you can throw incredibly quickly without it going pink. Since it's a lot faster than you normally can throw after a 6A opponents (well at least, my opponents) will tend to block, especially since you're still in the 6A animation. And also, if they're aware of the setup and know to delay their dp/reversal super or w/e....6A can be jump cancelled. Good times.

Fixed. Yes tager is a tough matchup if you approach it like you try to play any other matchup. But once you get past complaining about sledge beating projectiles and start thinking of ways to get around tager's strengths the matchup improves drastically. For example: Use 5B. Good poke. If he's doing sledges/6As to yomi your D moves, then you can 5B CH > 3C etc etc for good damage. Use 4D. Tager doesn't really have a good answer to this move outside of spark volt. For example, if you make him block a d.6C, chain into d.5B (or 5a....iunno. There's one with no frame gap even on IB), then go into 4D. The 4D will CH 360/720 attempts (for what, 5k or something), and if he sledges you can 214D on reaction. Learn to hitconfirm jabs into combos. Eg if tager backdashes every wakeup, learn to confirm 5a5a > 6a etc etc. Tager really has no answer to noel jab pressure on wakeup except to block. (Well, if he has meter he can do an easily baitable 720, and if you're failing to time meaty jabs then he can 360A you, but in either of these cases...just level up and play better.) Also fun is simply running at tager from fullscreen. You have an answer to everything he does, eg 5B beats sledges, 5D beats pokes, 2D beats grabs etc etc. It's ghetto (but so is everything noel has) but it's a rock-paper-scissors where you have more to gain than lose (noel's avg dmg > tager's if you're doing the right combos).

Amen to that. :S

Heh, thanks for the kind words guys. And yeah Heroic, I should have put a slightly larger disclaimer pointing out....it's Australia. We're all scrubs down here. :S Leo, yeah, her 3C is slow enough and her hitbox extends so you can 360A it, but I'm usually scared that they'll 4D or something like that. Also I don't have a litchi player to practice against so I'm not too used to seeing her strings. >.>

So, I totally came 2nd at an australian tourney a month or so back. Random bracket match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZdmr0s1lFk Losers Final: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRd2cwUVl2U Winners Final: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLq62YswLOo Grandfinal isn't worth watching, I just scrub up and get stomped hard. >.> Also I was dropping combos hilariously that day, tourney pressure and such.

Tager's counter assault is horrendous. It starts up slowly and has a pathetically small hitbox. In fact, looking at that, if he blocked the crossup correctly and CA'd her, I'm pretty sure the daisharin's next hit would hit tager out of the CA recovery. >.>

For hazama and ragna in score attack, they tend to fall for: 360B > 236A > (they bounce tech, you walk forward) > 360B. Forever.

Just to note about reversals, if you knock down bang, a meaty 2B will beat all of his wakeup options. Things bang can try: 6D: Just autopiloting 2C will CH this. Daifunka: You recover in time to block. Nail rain: You recover and can 360B/720 despite nails. Ashura: Not a reversal. FRKZ: If you did 2B meaty he can't escape. That being said, with 100 meter of course he can Daifunka RC. But if they're a good bang...yeah, 5C/5D/Sledges are total ashura/daifunka bait.

I should have specified: I was referring to her dp as a method of getting out of tager's pressure. On wakeup it can be beaten by sledge like you said, it can also be safe jabbed if you time it right. But I guess her losing the staff is good even if the sledge combo isn't damaging...hmm..... Also nate, on j.b vs AC, it depends. Yes, after gadget it wins, but basically what you have is an 11f startup 3f active aerial vs a 17f startup 7-16f head invuln attack. So after gadget (+3), litchi has 11+3f startup then 3 active frames, which hits tager on the 17th frame where he isn't invulnerable. (At least I think this is how it works? Feel free to correct me) In situations that aren't static like gadget you can have better luck because her active frames could be entirely within the invuln timing and then you grab her during recovery, or if it's a yomi collider then it can get them before the active frames are out. But....yeah, if they don't jump you're in trouble.

Good, helpful rundowns Axis and Sg. I've just got a few points to discuss in sg's summary: I find that magnetism at neutral is almost useless against litchi - any move tager can use to pull her closer...she can use to just extend her poke range, she typically isn't inside j.D/5D range even with magnetism and hence can simply counterpoke. Her dp being a projectile is a non-issue, the only time it could cost her is if tager cancels into sledge at the exact moment she decides to dp...not too likely.(And sledge combos are only ~2k damage anyway.) In fact, you can pretty much exclusively use dp's on reaction since tager's C and D moves are so slow. And her 3f jump isn't just moderately helpful, IB jump makes a laughingstock of tager's 'pressure'. Will work if you read the opponent correctly, gaining tager ~3k dmg. If you read incorrectly, you take 4k on reaction and lose all offensive momentum in the process. Risky. Litchi's 6B is -7, IB makes -12, spark startup is 13f (not even including travel time). 6B is safe. With IB works on 6C. From that I'm assuming you're not a tager player. >.>

If you're fighting tager, arakune, lambda, litchi, mu, rachel, hakumen, ragna, jin, taokaka or bang, you can do B+C>AC>j.C whiff > (j.B > 5C/j.2C > 2B) > AC > B/Egadget Gives a bit over 3k dmg and off the top of my head...around 33 meter or something.

Personally I see it as a tradeoff - B+C throws are far less vulnerable on whiff than a 360, so when attempting to throw on offense I prefer to B+C most of the time to avoid eating a nasty combo if they jump. On defense/punish situations 360s for sure. On the issue of teching, if they're teching it on reaction everytime then it won't go anywhere, but if they start anticipating a B+C throw then doing a 360 will catch them as they wait to tech. (Scrubhammer tactic but HEY IT TOTALLY WORKS. >.>)

Ok so, I was mucking around with it in training, and you're right mike, the pink airthrow isn't as bad as I was making it out to be, something I couldn't manage to punish was if they tech the throw then airdash backwards. With the time it takes tager to land from the throwbreak and collider they've already fallen too low to get picked up with colliders magnetism. I was testing on haku, if it makes a difference. And also, even with the latest poss. j.D that avoids haku's j.c, if he yomis it he can airdash forward j.B > tsubaki > etc etc for 5k, not too likely to happen though. >.>

Ok so, after testing a few combos from non-optimal starters: From 5D CH: 5D CH > 5C > 6A > AC > j.D whiff > j.2C > 2B > 2C > AC > Bgadget gives around 50 dmg and 3 heat improvement on 5D CH > AC > AC whiff > 6C > j.2C > 2B > 2C > AC > Bgadget From a magnetised B+C forward throw: B+C > AC > j.D whiff > j.2C > 2B > 2C > AC > Bgadget gives 40 dmg more but 3 heat less than B+C > 5C > 6A > AC > AC whiff > 6B > 2C > AC > Bgadget From an instant landing or RC j.2C: j.2C > 2B > 2C > AC > j.D whiff > j.2C > 2B > 2C > AC > Bgadget gives the same heat but 80 dmg more than j.2C > 2B > AC > AC whiff > 6C > j.2C > 2B > 2C > AC > Bgadget In other cases like spark, airthrow, 4D CH and probably others that can only do 6B 2C, it pushes the proration too far for a second untechable collider.

with mag: AC whiff > 6C > j.2C > 2B > 2C vs. j.D whiff > j.2C > 2B > 2C Former is superior in all cases, since it's the same...with an extra 6C. Gains about 50 dmg and 5 heat more.

It's just a gimmick. If your opponent breaks the throw and 'holds up', or manages to press an aerial at the precisely wrong time, they get 720d. If however, they break the throw, then CH tager out of the air, double jump, airdash forward, airdash backwards or change their momentum with a special/aerial, it fails. So for hakumen, j.c will hit tager clean out of the j.d whiff.

I mentioned that too....*sadface* But spark still has it's uses, since if you don't have mag you can do 2B>collider into spark to gain magnetism, and it sets up a collider trap that catches neutral air tech. Or the pink airthrow gimmick (which the SB commentators claimed was legit and hard to escape lolololol)

Ok so, did a bit more testing on it, confirmed that (with mag) 360B>2B>2C>AC WILL WORK on haz/tsubaki....timing for the walk is so very tight though. I can personally vouch for 360B>2B>AC without mag working on the following characters: Tager Bang Ragna Lambda Noel Mu Makoto Litchi, Hazama and Tsubaki require the 2C + mag to pull it off, and the timing is very strict. And yeah, point blank OTG 2B>AC works on all except hazama hakumen and valkenhayn. Then how well it works on others with distance varies, the aforementioned characters (tager bang...makoto) having the best aerial hitboxes to get hit by it.

Yeah, I can't get hazama/tsubaki either, I think it's a case of like...walking the maximum possible frames forward before doing 2B/2C. 360B is around +21 (since you can hit 6A on rachel) and so in theory you can walk forward for 10f before doing an 11f 2B.....too hard to be practical on those two if it's actually possible I guess. (For reference 360B > walk 2B > AC will never work on hazama, OTG 2B > AC doesn't even work pointblank on him)

360B>2B>2C>AC is already in the first post of the thread. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKVSvmGHmI0&fmt=22 According to this topic it works on: Tager (no need to walk), Noel, Ragna, litchi, bang, hazama tsubaki, and lambda. Also it works on Mu/Makoto. It's easier to do if you omit the 2C tbh, also you don't need mag if you just do 2B > AC. That being said, I can't get it to work on litchi/haz/tsubaki consistently. Also it works on Mu/Makoto. If you have mag you can even do 360B > walk 2B > AC > 5D, or, MY FAVOURITE, 360B > walk 2B > AC > spark > 5C > 6A > AC/pink airthrow (4.7k before the reset/throw)

Nah, you can't. The point on valk's hitbox (makoto's too) where you can pick them up with a j.B is right in the centre of their body, so to hit it after collider you have to walk forward for ages, they can tech long before you can get the j.B to hit OTG. Tested Makoto: 360A: 22D and slight step 5B4D connect. 360B: Walk 2B collider works. Could not get -any- magnetless double collider combo. j.2c>2B, j.C whiff > j.B, Bsledge>2B, 6C all fail...she just falls really far away from tager somehow. Also Magnetised B+C > 6A > 2C > AC etc seems universal, could it be better then B+C > 5C > 6A which misses some chars like arakune and valkenhayn? Also a note for valk, in combos involving 6C > j.2c, he has a weird aerial hitbox, if you do the j.2c quickly you'll whiff, make sure to delay or superjump to make it work.

Mu's hitbox is similar to Lambdas - 360B > walk > 2B collider works. AC > walk > j.c whiff > j.2c > 2B > AC works. (Bsledge variant works as well) Valk has an odd aerial hitbox... Cannot combo OTG 2B > collider (even at point blank. Similar to haz/haku) So no AC after 360B. Only magnetless double colldier I found to work was AC > walk > 6C > AC. Timing for it is easier than on haz. Can't combo 5C after normal throw. (6A > 2C works with mag though) 360A - 262D and 5B4D both connect. Makoto: not sure, haven't tested throroughly. The optimal 2C FC combo works on all 3 though (the magnetless one which has j.c whiff > j.2c > 2B > Asledge and does 4297 53 heat)

That's pretty standard for 720s in fighting games, they allow quite a large buffer window. What you can do is something like 5A/2A > spin a 360 ending in a non-jumping direction > wait a tiny bit > spin 360 and hit C. After spinning the first 360 you can even walk forward for a little bit before completing the 720.

Backdash 360 will sometimes fail due to range - backdash 6A will work and will give more heat as well. But don't IB backdash, you might do it too early and get caught by the last few frames of 5D. >.> It should however be noted that Arakune's 6A can be jump canceled, and can gatling into 2B which is airtight on IB and is a low.