Omex

ggs all, sorry team.

I have a room up as well, now. midwest kanji etc

Same thing, tho i was coming in like half groggy, sorry!

texas net slide omb? ;w;

uh... yeah i didn't acutally list a combo i was too lazy to remember the acutal thing i've been practicing lol. combo works fine it's just annoying to practice really tight 5aa without mashing to ensure you can do 5a AND so you can do 5a 236236A if it's a combo that allows 150 meter. not worried about the actual combos themselves. then i realized the screenflash makes practicing these links way easier so I posted! edit: and axis 2a in the corner doesn't seem like a good idea. tried it on a few combos and 5aa does more damage and considering 2a is a 8 frame startup it's harder to link for less damage.

paralyzed in the corner is rigged in liz's favor, straight up. talking with a friend if they time a 5D well enough all you can do generally is hop it and she can punish the hop for a 2b for a punish so yea lol. I haven't explored it much yet, but I'm pretty sure the only options we have to explore are really gimmicky methods of beating it, either hoping 236a/sweep is fast enough to get airborne before thanatos can grab you and OMC it on hit, use 214C/CD throw invinc to try and dodge the 5D, something. like, I'm pretty sure there isn't a legit way out of this lol, it's basically just take a persona card and then suffer the followup it seems. edit: to be more specific there are liz setups where she times a meaty 5D so your only option is to hop or DP/super and she will 2b you as you do it, so there's really no option you have to beat it. it's a very tight setup to be really unescapable however, so she has to guess between you doing DP or hop. even with that clarification it's a pretty shitty situation, but... what I'm sayin is, vs liz, it is totally worth chair super --> OMC while paralyzed vs 5D, lol. ST Bison v thawk yo midscreen is in fact where you want to be. 5b/5c are rollable like axis said because their WHIFF is horrible, but outside of whiff they're safe as shit. j.b is hard to contest but depending on the range, you can 236CD it, 2b it or sweep it (to go under the card) but it's all situational based on the jump pattern she's using. axis is wrong on her corner game being 'beatable', trying to roll the 5b is an awful idea because you have to roll it once she's already started throwing it and she could just do anything else to catch you. best advice i've had/seen is if you block a 2c just superjump out of the corner and use any tool you have to dodge out, airdash forward, air turn air backdash, j.c, j.214a/b, etc. she can beat that but her options doing anything else are far too rigged, apparently. to deal with 5C, 2C and 5D mixups blockstring wise, don't watch for what card she holds out, don't watch for the arms on the persona... a lot of the time the best strategy is to watch whether she's crouching or not. she has to crouch for 2d, and she stands + holds out a card for 5D so that can be the best way to react. she also lifts herself off the ground slightly for her anti air sword slash, but if you hav ea liz doing that against you in blockstrings you're in good business generally, lol. ghastly wail is actually a pretty good reversal vs kanji if you aren't ready, almost all of your options for pressuring on wakeup lose to it if she mashes it immediately (5a recovery, 5b, 2b, tc, pmuch anything but an immediate 214C/D really!) if you are at neutral you can jump on reaction and it's a bad reversal, but (barring supergrabs) what reversals are good in that situation? lol Diarahan is NOT safe vs Kanji unless Kanji is being juggled by EX fire, otherwise he can react with j.d or j.214AB, really. Liz can actually go for tick throws on people once they're feared as people can't tech and it gives her a pretty good combo. If she has to run at you to do it, use 5A to counterhit or blockstring her, especially since it beats her jumping to fake the throw, and if she's point blank, 214C will beat her thanks to throw invinc. :V if you're pressuring her and KNOW a 2b is coming for whatever reason, you can roll it for probably the best punish? otherwise always go for some sort of 2b CH or 5b 2b frametrap, as a CH 2b gets you a delicious 4k against a 7.5k health character. aside from that, if it's a bad liz who mashes 2b to escape grabs, on block she's forced to cancel into j.b, right? While that usually makes kanji a sad panda, if you crouchblock it, it actually whiffs on him and gives you an opportunity to punish. also don't burst, save that shit for killing her or dodging her freeze -> AoA -> Ghastly wail combo. trust me, it's just not worth it otherwise. seriously. IBing her 2c lets you 5a punish it since it loses almost all of it's knockback. guard cancel during her ex fire is a good option if they aren't omcing it to make it safe. uh that's what I have off the top of my head now but this is definitely an ongoing thing lol, been fighting a lot of lizes lately. edit: oh and watch very carefully how you tech. a lot of liz's gimmick mixups are based on how you tech, teching up/back can get you hit by ice sword, teching too early or late gets you grabbed or airgrabbed by 5d/j.d, way too much for me to know all of.

something lovely i realized in the last few days: so in the corner you can extend combos by doing (stuff) > 236C otg 5AA 236C 236A right? Though, depending on the combo, the timing is a little different (like j.214 corner OMB vs 5aa 5b sweep OMC 5c blah blah) and it can be important to get that first 5A perfect so you can cancel it into 236236A/B if you want to do a 150 meter finisher or whatever else. what's the easiest way to learn the link? WELL the screen shakes every time they land from 236C. depending on the combo you either want to hold 5a for frame buffer towards the end of the shaking OR right at the very end of it. cool stuff. using 'thunder time' as a voiceclip is also great for helping learn the link but since soundclips are randomized between two sets it's not too helpful, shaking is consistent!

vs lab dp: 5aa DP is still quite legit (esp 5aa2aDP), because of how both DPs work, if she super cancels the DP on hit of your DP, you can super cancel as well, giving you an option at least lol. You can also do 5AA AoA for a better punish, and to remove her super cancel possibility, you can do... 5AA 236236A/B (iirc, take or leave a 5a/2a) to beat her before she has the chance to super cancel, and that leads to a nice 2.8k or 5k punish with more meter. i'd like to note that almost every labrys player I've fought is very aggressive once they get DP'd, usually air teching towards kanji for a j.a or j.c. not saying every labrys player is, but for some reason there's a higher tendency? watch out for it I guess =3= especially since 2b should be able to beat those options and get you a CH 4k or a non CH 2k knockdown. Just about her only legitimate blockstring is 2a (until red axe or something?) so know if she's doing 5aaa that you can mash dp it. watch for a whiffed 2c to catch your jump/iad approach, a 5C will teach them not to do that shiet. If lab is just downbacking and waiting for you to do things and punish them, using 236A/236AB is pretty good to get in. 236AB in particular is + and can trade with her 2b if you manage it right, but that depends on when she does it. either way, just don't rush in and try to contest her 2B, for the love of god. contesting j.b is half of the matchup by the way. if she's doing quick IADs to surprise you with it you may have to rely on DP on reaction to stop it, the rest of the time you have to either DP on reaction to J.B, watch for double jumps/airdashes and j.c/air guillotine to delay her fall. if she's JUST doing double jumps/airdashes into j.b on you though, 2b that nonsense as soon as she uses up her air action. Also, if she is not spacing her jump ins well, there will be a gap between j.b or j.a and 5a (slow 7f startup 5a lol) so make sure to DP that stuff. because of how her axe powerup works, she's actually a pretty good character ot practice extended blockstrings on-she has poor options for dealing with some of the ways kanji extends with how her DP works, and the longer she blocks, the more axe level she loses, so they'll be antsy. watch for supers and OMCs to get out of the situation though lol. From what I've seen of the projectile she can lay down into the ground, it seems closer to a gimmick than a solid mixup. She can set it up and release it whenever she wants (she has to hold a button), but since her mixup options are the same as always it usually comes down to a quick crossup j.b, a run up throw or a 2a/overhead/overhead first hit OMC 2a mixup sort of thing. And the occasional weird guy setting it up just so he can pop it when you jump over it and it catches you for some reason oh god why. Probably most commonly seen after her EX overhead! Mostly, be wary of the throw. Gear super is a pain in the butt to deal wtih as it's + frames, invinc startup and a projectile. omcing it even lets her have a better mixup. If you're at neutral when she does it, just IK her and be done with it lol. If she cancels it off of a DP I do believe you're forced to block it, try going for a guard cancel if she can't OMC it or is doing silly overheads and whatnot during it. With brutal impact (her unblock chargeup super) you can input IK once you see the second superflash and beat her cleanly or just roll it and punish with 5c like a normal person.

j.214a/b/ab can be great to punish her persona moves if you make her whiff them at neutral. like, 5c? lots of recovery after the active frames, and she's left standing for them. more importantly, grabbing her with supergrab/214c/d/j.214A/B/AB is the best way to deal with her fire pillar supers if it isn't in a combo. while it can be awkward to punish depending on spacing, she leaves herself open and standing the whole time, and while the fire covers the whole screen + is guarenteed after startup, the instant you touch her with previously mentioned moves, you are invinc as long as you are beating on her and dodge the whole thing. up close her normals are not faster than yours in the slightest lol. her 5a is awful and her 2a is only 7 frames, with your 5a being 6, and your grab being 15. She's forced to resort to 2A in order to poke out of gaps in your blockstring or DP due to this. if you know she will mash, you can actually 236A to beat her 2a clean for a 2.2ish punish off of CH 236A and dp is easily punishable on reaction to the startup guard frames in your blockstrings. honestly she's the best character in teh game for kanji to blockstring BECAUSE of her slow normals; 236A is -3 but the only thing she has that can stop kanjis' 5a after it is 2a, and as previously mentioned, you can beat it if she relies on it too much. AS A RESULT Kanji's usual game of 5aa, 5aa jump cancels/iads forward, 5aa 5b (mixup) 5aa 5b 5a, with occasional 5cs and 236A/Bs thrown in to extend and make them nervous about an incoming grab are much stronger vs her, as she has to rely on DP a lot more than most. as i just mentioned it I'll get to it now: dp is easy to punish. on wakeup if you are 5aing her you can just cancel 5aa into 5C FC. in fact you can just stand there and it won't hit you unless you are POINT BLANK lol. unless you're point blank your punish will always be whatever normals (hopefully 5aa) into 5C, and the rest of the time just cancel into DP. yukiko seems to rely on 5aa in her blockstrings a fair bit if she's point blank, you can IB the first hit to DP the second one or supergrab super, 236236a, whatever. you can actually use hop to go over her low fire projectile but they can detonate it whenever they want by pushing a button, so careful. once you're stuck in the PERSONA BLOCKSTRING VORTEX it's really important to keep track of how she extends the blockstring: after 5c 2c she has to use various things to extend, like the fire pillar, 5D, fans/pillar with her 'persona flies up and lands on you', etc etc. punish accordingly, 5b the 5D, hop the fire pillar, jump block the fans, etc etc. be careful of her agi projectiles however (fire rings that hang in the air) as she can make them detonate whenever she wants. also, note? they can cover 4/5/6D by throwing a 4/5/6 fan after it in order to make you block or get CH if you try to punish the persona. if they make the fan and the persona hit at the same time you can use 5B to beat both at once. she can use fire break (her move to make her next fire attack unblockable) to end a blockstring or oki into an unblockable starter which is sillydumb. if she blockstrings you at range with her persona with fire break activated you have to guard cancel the persona before she can get to the fire attack as far as I know. she can also use it ot make an agi hanging over your wakeup spot unblockable and hit you once you tech, I'm not entirely sure how to deal with it. (roll? super? idk. just not blocking or dp!) restricting her air movement is very important as well, don't forget 236CD exists once you get her in a position where she's very likely to jump back and toss a fan. FINALLY BE CAREFUL ABOUT DOING OKI ON HER WAKEUP IF SHE HAS IK AVAILABLE LOL. If you're doing something dumb like run up BD, 5C on her wakeup for god knows whatever reason like I've done her IK is actually fast enough to whiff punish you. ;w;

double post for visibility, doubly so to correct some erroneous information I posted, lol. 5C is an amazing poke for chie still, as she can dash and even jump cancel it but it's a risk for her to go in on kanji with it, hooray. 5c dash cancel forward 5a is actually -1 or so, so kanji can successfully grab her if she tries to go in and commit with 214c and 214CD. of course, chie can also backdash and just 5c again, etc etc... but it's an important option. similar to fighting yu making 5C whiff is actually huge for you, if you can bait it and dodge it you can punish with 5c for huge damage. similarly one of chie's strongest tools is her 5a dash 5a dash etc pressure, as her 5a is +1 which makes it a dumb, strong blockstring. thankfully kanji's grabs are 5f so you can grab her in the gaps of the 5as, but you have to be careful for her chaining into 5b/2b/sweep off of the 5as, which should beat you clean. chie's dp is really silly on a million levels. of relevance to us if she does it to beat our meaty 5a pressure or whatever we're sad! thankfully if you trigger it with a 5a you can cancel into DP or AoA to punish it on reaction (though you have to be 100% ready and aware of it to do it on reaction.) unfortunately she can also cancel the activation frames into power charge and do crazy damage to kanji! canceling 5a > dp still beats that though thank god. now you just have to worry about god hand/meteors lol. god hand can be punished if kanji is at neutral when it happens a few different ways-on reaction 214D is nice and clean, DP --> 236236A will safely net you a clean 236236A counterhit to do at least 2.8k damage, more if canceled. rolling and supergrabbing probably works, and lastly blocking and doing w/e punishes, but gives her the opportunity to OMC it. how chie ends her blockstrings is essential to punishing her: after blocking that scary oki and whatnot, she HAS to jump cancel a normal/sweep or end in 2a to keep it safe-and if you're keeping track outside of 5a dash 5a dash etc chie can only use the A button ~3 times in a blockstring before she has to use other normals, just like everyone else, so if she extends after her As, be ready to deal with a jump cancel or punish 2b/5b on block. or the startup of 5D if she's bein mad aggressive. j.c is still dumb if she jump cancels into it it can give you a lot of problems, 2b legitimately can't beat it because IT DOES NO TCOUNT AS AN AIR MOVE. so 2b's head invinc means nothing vs it. Also be very careful in the air, as she can just spam j.a as many times as she wants, if it catches you she can force you to block the entire way down to the ground and then start a blockstring that way. no seriously it sounds weird on paper but it's really easy and it works. ;; always always always be ready to block high/low if she cancels into a rampage because of the previously mentioned OMC cancel for a quick low. for dealing with her oki, situation's bleak. IB as much of it as you can without getting hit for delicious meter, guard canceling is sketchy at the start because she can just airdash over you, especially in the corner and get a free punish on you because of our guard cancel's hitbox. be sure to try late teching into her oki for better options, such as making her guess whether... um... whether you dp immediately or late tech and dp immediately lol. if they're overaggressive it can work! (but seriously dping is a bad option.) osuna's advice from earlier in the thread has a lot of errors in it, if you're up close to her you can beat her normals just fine if you know your options, being at + frames from 2c, 236b, 236AB, oki etc will let your 5A beat hers out or trade, and your grab can beat her if she's reckless. 5a 5b 2b 236b can actually be good, it 'has no highs, lows, or throws' in it but there's a 3 frame gap between 5b and 2b, which means if she jumps it'll catch her for a 236C finisher or, if she's mashing something, will land you a 4k 2bch > 5c combo. and naturally the reason why THAT is a mixup is because she's scared of grab or 5a after 5b. as for j.d catching chie shit happens, if she's going to end up in j.d range hey, hit her with j.d. watch for meteors tho long story short: chie is going to want to run at you and push buttons because it works really well and her oki is hard to get out of. it's scary but you gotta not let her recklessly run at you (despite how fast she is), not mess up and get hit accidentally by any number of random 5c, 5as or j.bs/j.as into a blockstring and get that knockdown to run your game. it's scary and she gets momentum/easy rewards for even making you block but it's winnable as long as you dont' get discouraged by how easy she comes back!

Right, so, shtkn was asking for feedback on the wiki! considering I wrote a good chunk of the kanji wiki and have done a little work over at mizuumi on various things as well I thought I might be able to weigh in a little. just as a warning, I'm writing this at like 9am an hour after waking up, all giddy and excited to try and help! especially after reading over it again i'm pretty sure it's long, rambly and could be WAY MORE CONCISE but here you go. if you want the quick version there's a tl;dr at the bottom you can read instead, and read all of 'how things should be improved b' for sure! Informal survey: Do ppl use the @DustloopForums wiki? What do you like and dislike? What sections do you use? What should be done better? Do/Should/ETC people use the wiki? I think a lot of how the wiki is being used/not used is tied together with how it interacts with the forums. I'm one of those types that tries to use information to his advantage as much as he can, so not only do I read the wiki and forum combined, I try to update the wiki as much as I can to help others and help sort my own thoughts and words out (which can lead to strategies in itself). And while that's fine for me, I know for a fact some people that I play and discuss with don't particularly check the wiki at all (outside of say, frame data), despite the fact they know I update it with everything I find. For people who are continually trying to improve themselves, and already have a solid grasp on a lot of what x character does, I'm assuming the wiki is a bit problematic to use-while the updates are easy to find if one uses the history tool, obviously it isn't as intuitive or convenient as seeing someone posted something new in the match up forums or stumbled upon something fancy about a character's 236a and posted about it in the general discussion thread. So, that makes sense for someone who's already established and ongoing. AS A RESULT... I'm assuming that the best use of a Wiki is going to go towards people who: 1. Need solid, confirmed information for their character to confirm things with. Frame data, move properties (airborne or not), whether it can be canceled, system mechanics, that sort of thing for sure. At least for Persona 4 Arena, and from what I've glossed over, Guilty gear, I'm 100% sure the wiki is providing well there. God knows, I learned something as of just last week about gold bursts and hops from reading around on there. 2. Are just starting out with the character and have no idea where to start, or need help making their decision of who to play. (I'M ASSUMING.) While browsing through the forums and checking for new posts to pick up smidgens of information for your character is wonderful when you're previously established (as mentioned earlier), if you're brand new to the game/character, you're basically going to have to go through the entire thread to catch up on everything, and that's definitely time consuming. And while the idea of a constantly updated opening post to each character's various areas (combos general theory etc) is always a wonderful idea on paper, I've seen way more 'opening posts that will be edited with more info' that never get updated than ones that do. What I'm getting at is, honestly, the wiki and the forums seem to go hand in hand in a lot of ways-Especially for general strategy and optimal, tried and true combos, the wiki is basically the modern, more effective version of the 'opening post that the mod is suppose to edit stuff into'. For example, over on the Kanji forums, our combo thread is a complete mess. While it has optimal combos in it, and some of them are labeled somewhat effectively... there's a -lot- of crap there, both in the sense of 'lots of stuff' and 'lots of bad combos.' For the longest time I wondered why in the hell the combo thread hadn't been cleaned up and reorganized yet, but when I finally asked Axis if he would let me reorganize it for him, he pointed out that it didn't really need to have all the 'crap' combos cut out, since the wiki's combo list basically already did that, so the thread was being more used as a giant repository of different combo paths and options for people to see/optimize/revise. OH MAN THAT'S KIND OF SMART. Using the wiki for this sort of thing over 'opening posts' is good for a few reasons, like the fact the mod themselves don't have to do the editing work, multiple people can work on it (which ensures actual updates IN THEORY), and... well, yeah. It's one nice, organized page with chapters and whatnot! There's totally some problems with that idea though, like people who don't understand the game as well as they think (LIKE ME A LOT) putting erroneous information on there, misleading said beginning players... well, you know, the same problem you always get when anyone can submit information for an official looking page without having credentials, but that'll always happen to some extent. There's also the problem of 'People WITH said credentials not wanting to actually do the work on the wiki for a plethora of reasons (shoutouts to catching SKD once saying something or other about wanting to post solid narukami information (particularly combos) and not having a good place to put it right after/before discussing the narukami wiki ww) which makes it... well, about equally as problematic as the 'editing the first post' strategy, probably. (good examples: elizabeth wiki is FANTASTIC for finding information about each of her moves and hidden mechanics and whatnot good lord. BAD EXAMPLES: I have no idea if anyone can actually traverse the yu narukami wiki combo page without dying horribly, some characters' moves still have mechanics and attributes listed on them from earlier arcade revisions or erroneous information on them, like kanji having super armor on his 236b was on the wiki for several months... etc etc.) problems! likes and dislikes! random stuff I'm putting at the end! 1. how should the wiki interact with matchup forums/information? I wanted to do a matchups write up on the wiki at one point, but circuitous pointed out we have the matchups forum for that, and... I genuinely do not know how the interaction between the two should be handled, ideally or realistically. anyone who browses wikis a lot knows that the big matchup writeups are the things that NEVER get filled out, too :\ 2. How should things be improved! a. unfortunately a lot of it is a mystery to me! most of the most obvious solutions like having a mod who plays the character read over it doesn't work on opening posts, so doesn't work out here. b. Putting clear enforceable guidelines as to what should or should not be posted is essential! People are not actually going to read said guidelines most likely, but for the people who have credentials, are well informed and want to keep the wiki clean, efficient and well organized, when it comes to the time of 'Hey you put a lot of hard work into this and I hate to do this to you but a large chunk of this should not be on here", they can point to it and explain "The wiki is for specific information, the rest of it goes onto the forum for x and x reason, check the guidelines!" and not feel guilt tripped :C As much as I was teasing him earlier, SKD is a good example here-dude's got the credentials twice over now for p4a editing but with all the hard work whoever has put into the narukami wiki and the fact the information on there is USEFUL, just not the right KIND... it's hard for him to go in and 'wreck the guy's hard work' to make it better for everyone. (I totally discussed it with him as I was writing this up, he'll totes back me up) Hand in hand with that would be consistent formatting style guidelines as well-the liz wiki is a seriously great example of how just about everything should be organized imo. clean, efficient, info a lot of people won't know both new and old, important info bolded. tl;dr the wiki seems to be doing it's job as the 'reputable, solid information source that goes hand in hand with the continually updated forum!' but that is on a case by case basis of characters with people who care/who care and know what should/should not be posted on the wiki, etc. Frame data, cancelability and etc is valuable information that is on the wiki that will always be useful and is one of the biggest draws, so it's good there. sections like general gameplan and whatnot are likely only to be read by beginners but that should be fine! In terms of improving, we need firm guidelines, that way while there will be wiki nazi-ing with what can/cannot be on there it'll help people add information or reformat things when it's unhelpful without worrying about whether they're 'right' or 'wrong'! okay this was too rambly hopefully i said what i needed bye kids!

it's official kids: chickzama just lounges around laughing while woof has pssych on his shoulders, with pssych randomly slapping him on the top of the head to make him ex run and glide to wherever he wishes (unless you didn't mean steed)

double post for visibility. I'm gonna write about yu's pressure because we haven't talked about it much and Kanji's DP sucks at dealing with most of it so LET'S EXPLAIN once you're knocked down by yu and you have to deal with his pressure, or you're stuck blocking (it's gonna happen eventually.): 1. learn to IB the 2-3 hits of his 5D (depending on how he set it up.) It's a free ~6-9 meter, and I dunno about you, but I frickin' LOVE 6-9 meter. 2. He wants you to be stuck blocking, especially in the corner, for as much of the match as possible, so it's important to know how he can extend pressure. In particular, watch for these as extenders: a. Raging lion A/B - Probably what you'll see the most at lower levels. Yu can cancel sweep, 5b, 5C, 2C... just about anything he hits you with into raging lion to move back in on you and keep pressuring. The trick is, raging lion A (the faster one) is prettymuch always going to be negative on block, so you can pressure him or punish him after blocking it (ex grab will usually punish, 5A will not but it will beat out his 5A/2A/2B/etc and catch him if he tries to jump.) Raging Lion B is a different matter, however, as it's positive on block with good spacing, so once you block it, narukami gets to continue his pressure. therefore; don't block it. outside of 5D setups, both can be beaten by DPing on reaction, 214D if there's enough of a gap, and 214214C/D will almost always work as well. b. Lightning Slide. While it's not very good for 'extending pressure' per se, if he catches you with it, he can OMC or OMB for huge damage on you, so be careful. The D version (multihit) is mad unsafe, but the C version can actually be spaced well (probably off of a 2C) to be safe on block, so be careful. OMCing the multihit slide to get in on you and pressure is also plausible. If he's going for this, try to either DP the slide, hop j.c it if there's a gap in time to do it, or plausibly supergrab. Just make sure you don't get -hit-. c. 236C/D - Ending his pressure in 236C (Fireball) is generally done just to cancel unsafe normals more safely. As far as I know, you can't relaly punish it, but his persona is left standing there at neutral after, so make sure to snag the card punish. 236D, on the other hand, can be very tricky if he pressures you with it close up-it has a slow startup, but it's positive on block (+9!!) and it fatals if it CHs you. I haven't particularly tested beating it, but I'm fairly sure a quick 5A will CH it and leave Yu open for a moment. (this is depending on what normal he cancels into it off of/whether it's a meaty or not/etc, of course). tl;dr try not to block it because +9 lets him reset his pressure plenty lol. d. Sweep - Just worth mentioning as Yu can go for a late sweep to try and get a low knockdown you wern't expecting. Special cancelable, so look at the above to see what he can do to make it safe. Most blockstrings into sweep (not involving 5D) actually have gaps in them, so you can either 214214C/D it or IB and 214214C/D him through it. It's a risk tho! e. 5C cancels - Once you block a 5C, Yu has a bunch of options to extend pressure. first and foremost, canceling 5C into 2C is a 3 frame frametrap, and it can lead to huge damage in the corner, so watch out for that-Kanji's roll is too slow to roll through it and get a guaranteed punish, but it's there. (if he jumps back every time after you roll, you can 236CD him however!) Outside of that, the move is also special cancelable and jump cancelable. JCing gives him quite a few options-in the corner, just neutral jumping and baiting kanji to do things with his double jump or just straight j.bing can be hard to answer to, and if Yu lands a j.b close enough, he can 5A to make it a true blockstring and reset his pressure properly. 2B is good if he double jumps at you, otherwise 236C and airgrab are probably your best options. Additionally, he can just IAD forward and j.B 5a you to reset it as well-in that case, just 2B it or DP if you reacted a little too late. He can also jump cancel, airturn backdash to you for a 2A low/throw, jump backwards, airdash backwards away from you... it's a tricky little situation every time he lands it. f. 2C cancels. So, Yu went for 5C -> 2C to trap you, hoping for a fatal in the corner or whatever else-thankfully, he can't jump cancel 2C. Yu's options are reduced to dash canceling forward, backward, or special canceling off of 2C-If he dashes forward, 214C will punish cleanly him before he can do anything, but 5A/214214C are too slow. Backdashing puts him back at neutral at a slight disadvantage, though I don't know if Kanji can punish it. You're not out of the park if that happens though, since he's probably doing it in the corner and still able to trap you in the corner with a dash 5B, 2C, god knows what. g. 5B hit - Special note, if he actually hits you with a 5B, (not on block) he can jump cancel it, letting him do the same jump cancel mixups as he can off of 5C. Mostly an honorable mention if he wants to nab a quick throw for ~3kish?, since he could just... continue the hit into a knockdown combo if he really wants lol. as far as I know those are the majority of the ways Yu's gonna try and extend pressure on you with, and counters for each (if I didn't derp and forget to put the punish as well as the actual way he extends lol.) Watch out for it, because being able to stop Yu from extending his pressure on you is pretty much the only way you can win the matchup in the long run! Special note, if he ends an air combo with j.2a (dive kick)? I'm pretty sure that sets up mixups with j.D once you tech on the ground. Not a lot of yu players actually have bothered learning to use the normal too much so I haven't tested much against it but I know SKD wrote a big thing on it over in the narukami forum (I WAS TOTALLY GOING TO LINK IT BUT I GOT FRUSTRATED TRYING TO FIND IT AND THEN DECIDED NOT TO. SORRY). So, special mention, although but I'm not sure what to do to beat it yet, tho I remember hearing roll is good? Sorry!

Dustloop account name/XBL Gamertag: Omex/Omecross Character: Kanji State/Prov you are located: Minnesota

@Kobayashi SHUT UP NERD @Grant SHUT UP NERD @shinsyn ...hi. ggs for the other day!

correct! (scottie smells)

oh god um am I too late? available... errm, period. thursdays' my bad day so I guess I'm good barring the occasional con/tournies in upcoming months! ;w;

in addition to what's been said, random 236C+Ds are very bad vs yosuke at a lot of spacings, as he's got quite a few options to deny it on reaction--I've set it up and had a training partner of mine just jump/superjump backwards to trigger it and iirc double jump or airdash back to dodge it and get a free punish safely with j.a after. most yosukes I've played with refuse to sit anywhere outside of that range at neutral so it's a bad idea regardless of what it counters rather situationally. as for ex spring countering 236C+D startup, talking about frames and whatever else--the spacing is going to determine whether it punishes or not and I'm willing to bet dosh that that same good spacing for yosuke vs kanji, it can beat C+D on reaction to Kanji, so what spacing were you testing at? I'm thinking you took it to mean that yosuke would literally sit fullscreen? try it at more realistic spacings and I'm sure it'll CH kanji easy. 5D vs 5C etc etc: first, yes, if you do punish 5D with 5C, a smart yosuke is going to just kunai you from range and take a card; sure, he just lost a card as well, but yosuke's best options vs kanji aren't persona reliant, and Kanji's best vs Yosuke are. bad idea imo! If you try to cancel 5C to make yourself mildly more safe vs his followup to the persona, you're likely to be...: 1. hit by kunai anyway because 5b, 2c, 2b, 236A/236B/whatever you want to cancel into, the recovery frames are rather similar or worse than 5C's recovery. (yea, 5C 5B makes you safer? same recovery frames, you just get 5 active frames in there in case they run at you too fast. plenty punishable in a lot of ways, especially kunai.) 2. stuffed trying to 2C after 5C: first, i don't remember 100% how hitstop+active frames on trading with a persona works in this game in terms of this argument-I'm fairly sure it's in yosuke's favor, tbh. Let's say yosuke rolls on the FIRST POSSIBLE frame to dodge 5C-he's got 31 frames of recovery before 2C will become active. he's only going to get hit if he's in 2C's hitbox, as it's got a deadzone right next to kanji. scenario 2: he rolls earlier than the perfect first frame,last possible frames for a dodge to work scenario possible and uses roll invinc to go through 5C on reaction to startup: he's 1 frame earlier than that? he recovers 1 frame sooner than 2c. 2? 2 frames before 2c hits. 5 frames? he just counterhit your 2c with 5a and CH dash spring'd your recovery. even earlier? yeeeeah. scenario 3: pray to god he's not baiting you to do this crap and just 2cing you for 5k for trying realistic scenarios? he's not going to roll far enough away from you that 2c is going to hit him. realistically, worst case for him he's going to block a 5C on reaction to it's huge startup and be safe from your 2C because of the horrid startup, he's just going to stop his dash out of 5C range and dash in and punish you with 5A or just dash, glide over 5C hitbox and counterhit your 5B/2C/whatever with j.a. Or just kunai you, y'know. He sets the pace of the match, he can bait 5C y'know, tho it sounds like you haven't practiced enough against good yosukes to see that? like all of this is awful theorycrafting, you're trying to make things more risky for really really meh returns. it seems like you're making a lot of poor assumptions in the process as well to keep it appealing-why does yosuke have to dash spring punish things all the time? dash 5a/sweep are plenty fast. And 5C canceling is a really really bad option in the first place regardless of all the issues with your theory; if you want 5c so bad why not hit 5D with 5B and cancel that into 5C/2C? it's still a bad idea but it's better than what you're suggesting, since you can cancel 5B in all of the ways you can cancel 5C but with more options, it doesn't involve your persona, it's harder to bait/punish... um yeah! Hell, it'll even be good practice for/if Yosuke persona breaks you, since those on reaction 5C 5D punishes won't be available, but 5B will still be there! all of this has been assuming yosuke isn't in sukukaja as well, in which case haha yeah he's going to punish you easily just by baiting that and dashing. btw if you insist on bolding parts of your post for emphasis i suggest keeping it on the main, valuable points of information in your posts rather than whether an imaginary, theorycrafted yosuke is dumb or not

imo 2a 5b 2b isn't very difficult once you let people know you delay the 5b 2b, so that's why I've included them as the stock stuff, personally.

Wiki combo section updated, highlights include updated combos off the top of my head and 5C 5b 2b combos being added and marked in italics for being much harder than the rest. comments/complaints/suggestions etc i will do the editing for you since nobody else will etc feel free to post said complaints in the combo thread etc

it does some sort of minimum scaling 600 at the end of lengthy FC combos but it doesn't do 600 on stuff like grab --> chair, 5aa sweep --> chair, shortish, non FC combos etc. unless you mean 236AB in combos in which case i dunno w

Just noticed, we're rather lacking in... 1. 5C air hit in the corner 2. 5c FC air hit in the corner 3. both above + at a range where 236B won't combo. and I think the midscreen 5C 236CD (out of range of 236B) combos might be able to be improved as well. not 100% on that tho! I've already figured out a few combos that're better than the ones listed for corner but I'll wait like... a day to transcribe them if needed. I'm -awful- at figuring out combos and I figure someone can find better optimized stuff than what I was doing. oh, and stupid shit: based on spacing air hit FC J.C OMC j.b j.214B OMC 2C 2B 236C 236A/B - 4117 probably hard to hit considering j.c omc j.b but hey even for 100 meter i can think of a lot of times i'd have loved 4k off of j.c hitting someone derping in the air

as in he'll record you doing ft10s with people or you're doing ft10 with him? cuz if I could get in on this I'd love to.

Dustloop account name/XBL Gamertag: Omex/Omecross Character: Kanji State/Prov you are located: Minnesota should be good to go, alarm set for friday instead of shirking off edit: OH MAN I PUT MINNEAPOLIS INSTEAD OF MINNESOTA WHOOPS. THEY START THE SAME I SWEAR

hooray time to ask random kanji questions for shits and giggles. hopefully I won't repost anything because i was too lazy to check the thread. Repost from twitter last night: "okay i'll bite what do we have on Aigis" [Aigis] isn't really scary since her dumb stuff like random Megido flare gets blown up easily, her approaches aren't really unbeatable, AND her normals aren't that scary. Her persona is a problem and blocking her 2B in the air gives her a free Orgia. If you don't stand still then you can make her waste orgia meter, if she is not in orgia then she isn't winning because that's what makes her scary. Also, Orgia flight approach is only safe at certain angles and/or when she uses j.C, and you can chicken block to make her waste Orgia meter just trying to get you to sit still. Her knockdown mix ups do make Kanji feel sad though. In other words, play her weaknesses to the extreme. TL:DR don't let her get started, stall her instead, which Kanji can definitely do. (Edited to remove twitter grammar, hope you don't mind/hope i didn't misinterpret =3=) Next up: You mentioned something about easily blowing up Aigis' DP --> Shield super? Any tips to dealing with gimmick reliant yosukes? I've gotten way better in the matchup but particularly if they rely on getting lots of run blockstring --> air slide teleport cancel --> more flips/gimmick setups I generally have no idea what to do lol. General Labrys gameplan? I know I win if I'm being patient but even watching my replays I have no idea wtf my gameplan was/is. Dealing with patient, baiting based akis? Either people who just jump around constantly slightly out of range until random airdash or the smarter people who rely on spacing j.c pressure. What to do after a successful B+D? Specifically, if I catch an air move with it (particularly teddy and yu I think) and they airtech and best way to stop people who just tech mash 5A on the ground (usually yosuke lol.) admittedly i haven't sat down to think about the latter myself yet but may as well while asking everything else!