toanenadiz

So those are the current Tager changes. How awesome/stupid are they?

Discuss

Unless I am mistaken, the recovery of moves is the same regardless of whether or not it hit.

Well, I am basing how far GF whiff pulls you in on what Unlimited Tager's GF does, but for every normal except a far range 6C, you can easily get a CH 5A before GF recovers because of the pull.

The only ones that have custom blockstun are 5D, 2D and 4D, if I am reading the frame data correctly.

Since the moves you will probably use the GF whiff are level 4 moves with 18 frames of blockstun, wouldn't it be dangerous to use it when your opponent is magnetize? 24 frames for GF whiff + the fact that you are bringing them closer means pretty much every character can get a CH 5A for free.

GF minimum duration is 24 frames right?

So it would be exactly like what Unlimited Tager does?

What is there to discuss about the loketest? None of the changes seem drastic and in all honesty, I feel the changes to the barrier system would have more of an effect on Lambda's gameplan than any of her current character specific changes.

You can't punish a move that is -1 on block. Unless you are talking about stopping it during its start-up frames.

It isn't always possible to rectify such design conflicts. An example would be Sagat vs Zangief from SF. That match-up has always been bad for Zangief by design. Zangief literally spends half of the match trying to get close and usually only can get one mix-up chance before he gets forced across the screen, at which point he usually has lost the match. It isn't limited to just grapplers. Borrowing from SF again, Guile has always been a horrible match-up for Bison. Guile's moveset just shuts downs Bison's options hard. There isn't much you can do about such match-ups without destroying the balance between the characters in question and the rest of the roster. It seriously would have been helpful to your argument if you could prove that this was a serious enough problem to warrant a Tager specific change to the system mechanics. The implications of your idea leads to other questions? For example, does Tager's gold burst also get the size increase? It would be weird if his green burst and gold burst where difference sizes.

I don't think it is that big of a problem to start with. The cases where it happens are probably rare if you have trouble coming up with an example of the top of your head.

Got an example of a combo like that?

You can't. It is +2 on normal block and -1 on IB. Even though it is -1 on IB, Hazama's 2A is 6 frames, so we can't really press buttons after it. You can stuff it with 5A or you can just backdash it.

Get drunk and not give a fuck

Jump Roundhouse works if you wait for them to get out of blockstun. Standing Fierce fails because it pushes your opponent away, which is actually a good thing considering it is minus on block and not special cancellable. If you are talking about the close version, just use your frame advantage to walk slightly forward and continue your pressure(which also lets you throw).

Umm...T.Hawk can tick throw. Are you sure you aren't confusing tick throws with something else?

He isn't gimmicky enough to satisfy most Tager players.

Use the last combo. Replace 5CxN with 6A like Xie said.

Actually, you can still backdash 5C/2C->6C in the corner. You are using your backdash's invincibility to have 6C whiff. Lambda's backdash has invincibility for the first 5 frames and is 25 frames in total. Jin's 6C has 3 active frames and 27 frames of recovery. So if you backdash 6C, you have the advantage. And my answer to what to do after 6C is to just block. You can react to the dash and 6D. Ice car and DP are both punishable on block.

You can't figure out the answer yourself with the info I gave?

If you are positive they are going to do 2C/5C->6C, you can backdash before the 6C comes out and get away. But assuming you block that, make sure you IB the 6C and then if he: 6C->dash->grab: you can 5A him for free. Doesn't matter what he does after the dash. 5A will CH him during his dash. If you are feeling ballsy, you can use gravity to beat the throw too. 6D: 5A again. You can also backdash and you can do a CH 5D for massive damage. Ice car: Just block and punish. You can't do anything outside of giant sword of doom to prevent these. If you try to do anything but block, you will be hit. Backdash fails due to the amount of active frames the Ice Cars have. And 5A will get you CH by the B and C versions(you are in blockstun in the entire time before the A version hits you, so 5A won't come out). DP: Block low. Get your free CH 5C(1).

3C isn't unsafe. It will reliably hit Tsubaki out of 236C everytime. Using 236A or 236B has the downside of being punishable if Lambda decided to do nothing. Tsu's 236D is quite hard to beat outright with Lambda's 3C. It seems to clash more often than not but Tsu's 236D loses its hitbox after the clash so if you are unprepared for that, you could be punished. 214D is used to force Tsubaki to approach a certain way. 214D covers a large amount of the screen both vertically and horizontally, reducing Tsubaki's approach options. Lambda's gameplan is all about controlling space which is why 214D would be used in that situation rather than 236D, which controls a small amount of space. And the longer you sit at full screen, the less time you have to get in on Lambda, which can be a cause for concern if you don't have the life lead since Lambda does a good job at locking you down during the final seconds of a round for a timeout win. Dash 5D is an issue if they yomi'd your charge(or a shield rush). You are in a CH state for 18 frames, which leaves you wide open for losing 4K+ damage and ending up in Lambda's oki. And since it is pretty easy to tell if you were charging after they threw it out, she doesn't have to commit to the 236C follow-up and can just do normal stuff after the 5D. I think you are vastly underestimating Lambda. It isn't as easy it is seems to consistently react to her stuff. And Lambda doesn't necessarily have to guess with swords or her normals. She can simple wait and react to what you are doing. After all, you have to approach her, not the other way around. Edit: I forgot to ask this. Tsubaki doesn't have any way to escape Lambda's 236D oki, does she? Like any moves with feet/projectile invincibility that moves her either forward or backwards? I didn't see anything like that in the frame data, but it can't hurt to ask you guys.

I meant the part of your post about doing the video. There is a greater chance for people to see it if it is in the Lambda general thread instead of a match-up thread. And what I meant by he has too many options can be explained using your example. There are basically 3 ways you can be hit by Jin's 2D. Either the ice blade appears behind you, it appears on top of you or it appears slightly in front of you. Depends on which where it appeared, your options are different. Behind you: You can IB the 2D and backdash the 5C. Alternatively, you can just dash in and CH 3C him before he does 2D. On top of you: You can normal block and backdash. Also depending where exactly where you are inside of it, you can IB the 2D and CH 2B him out of 5C. In front of you: Block and CH 5D/CH 5C(1) him. All this assumes he follows up with 5C, which he doesn't really have to since he has frame advantage and can use it to do what he feels like. And the issue with Jin is that his pressure is so varied, that even if you block 2D->5C->string, the string he uses could be vastly different each time and can't really be safely predict'd and punished. You really have to make intelligent guesses on where you want to escape and how. If you notice certain blockstrings your friend uses, you can post them here and we can help you figure out what to do against those strings. The best way to really figure out what Jin can do to evade our drives is to go into training mode, and use the dummy to test various things. The same with corner pressure. If Jin's pressure could be mapped out in a way like you want for the video, Jin wouldn't really have that great of pressure.

Lambda doesn't need to use 5D to stop 236C. Lambda's 3C can be used to beat it out on reaction easier. I understand why 236D can't be thrown out full screen but there isn't a reason why she wouldn't thrown out 214D, since Tsubaki can't really punish it full screen without yomi. Dash->barrier gets you closer but you lose a primer and Lambda can easily move into a better position for her. Jumping it gives Lambda access to her AA swords and lets her move unhindered on the ground, which is what she wants. What you are saying isn't really incorrect but your options wouldn't really scare the Lambda into stopping her from using it full screen. Now if you were charging full screen instead, that would probably stop her from using it. And Lambda can just dash forward and 5D to CH you out of your charge if you do it full screen and too predictably.