Uncivilized Elk Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 What Elphelt worth anything is gonna use meter on wakeup supers? It's as if you think everyone who posts on dustloop is "worth something" at fighting games. Punishing people with DoT in hellfire though - that I'm pretty sure happens even at the highest levels of play >_>...
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 I mean, sometimes wakeup super is the correct play. But if you're getting hit with it that much, maybe you need to take a step back and reevaluate.
Angry Guy of DE Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Well...Elphelt's wake-up super is a 3+1 startup so it's pretty fast, if you don't meaty properly then you'll pay for it with that. Most supers like that are either 5 or 7 so it can surprise you if you aren't mindful of it aka if they can 2P out of something Elphelt could do that super instead.
redsilversnake Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 It also has poor range, and the damage isn't that good if the cinematic doesn't play. Poultrygeist is right that better Elphelt players won't use it much, if at all. Unless you're up against a weak player who thinks it's their best shot for escaping, it's usually better to assume that they'll just block on wakeup.
Poultrygeist Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 It's as if you think everyone who posts on dustloop is "worth something" at fighting games. Punishing people with DoT in hellfire though - that I'm pretty sure happens even at the highest levels of play >_>... I don't, I just assumed that most people were aware that no smart Elph is gonna blow their meter on wakeup super EVERY time. Not saying they'll never do it. ALSO consider that the move (if we're talking about cake) loses invul quite early and does fuck all if it trades, and god forbid if it hits at an angle that doesn't cause the cinematic to trigger.
Icekin Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 What Elphelt worth anything is gonna use meter on wakeup supers? One who knows the guy he's playing against will fall for it? Or am I not supposed to use wakeup supers against players who leave themselves wide open to it and never bait it, because someone on the internet said it makes you "worthless" ? Do you not use options against reckless players because it wouldn't work against more careful players? (This is the part where someone goes for the No True Scotsman argument and says no good player will fall for it)
qwerty Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Everyone gets hit by everything, at some point. It's a matter of figuring out how your opponent is conditioning you to play defense, and doing your best to avoid those bad situations to begin with.
Destin Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 There is such thing as a nash equilibruim in game theory that would loosely state how often you should use the moves based on the opponents character, rather than the opponents mindset. All good fighting game players move towards this equilibrium as they play more.
StylisH Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 The threat of wakeup super is often more effective than the super itself. It's a defensive mind game that I wish more people would take advantage of. Elphelt players who KNOW their character realize just how bad she is on wakeup, which is a detriment to that option because if the opponent knows this, means wake up super is a gamble with usually half your life at stake.
Linear04 Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 good players will use it when they know its gonna hit
TheGreatLeon19 Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 My win-loss ratio as of now online is 7 - 65, and I can say with absolute confidence that all 7 of those victories involved copious amounts of Hellfire raw Zansei Rouga. Also, every time I'm doing well off the start of a match, it's usually cut short by a random Hellfire dealing 70% of my tiny little Chipp healthbar. so... I know that someone with a <10% win ratio's opinion doesn't matter that much, but...
Circuitous Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 My win-loss ratio as of now online is 7 - 65, and I can say with absolute confidence that all 7 of those victories involved copious amounts of Hellfire raw Zansei Rouga. Also, every time I'm doing well off the start of a match, it's usually cut short by a random Hellfire dealing 70% of my tiny little Chipp healthbar. so... I know that someone with a <10% win ratio's opinion doesn't matter that much, but... As a general rule when discussing the merits of a mechanic, we try not to factor in the lowest levels of play. If people can't block raw Zansei Rouga that's on them, not Hellfire.
burningvigor Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 My win-loss ratio as of now online is 7 - 65, and I can say with absolute confidence that all 7 of those victories involved copious amounts of Hellfire raw Zansei Rouga. Also, every time I'm doing well off the start of a match, it's usually cut short by a random Hellfire dealing 70% of my tiny little Chipp healthbar. so... I know that someone with a <10% win ratio's opinion doesn't matter that much, but... I haven't been hit by one this past week and we're talking about over 200 matches. Generally you can kind of feel when an opponent wants to do a wakeup super by his playstyle during the match.
TheRealBobMan Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 My win-loss ratio as of now online is 7 - 65, and I can say with absolute confidence that all 7 of those victories involved copious amounts of Hellfire raw Zansei Rouga. Also, every time I'm doing well off the start of a match, it's usually cut short by a random Hellfire dealing 70% of my tiny little Chipp healthbar. so... I know that someone with a <10% win ratio's opinion doesn't matter that much, but... Wanted to point out that the online play there is making a difference too. Didn't Chipp's supers get buffed to frame 0 after the flash? If your delay fluctuates in the 7-12 range or even in the 4-7 range you're going to get hit. I've been hit by raw IKs before because I couldn't block the slow as balls startup on reaction in 10+ fluctuating delay. You see them go into IK mode and start playing defensive to run their health low and bait the IK, but when they throw it out you can't do anything even if you were simply walking forward. Just kind of adds to what Circ is saying. Online play isn't a good measure of the game to begin with since the delay turns it into a different game. Besides that, I would think that the damage bonus to Chipp's supers wouldn't be that big of a deal since they're multi-hit for lower damage. Yeah, it's more damage than before, but each hit still scales the next. I would think something like Hellfire HPB, Hellfire DOT, or maybe even Hellfire Fortissimo (multi hit, but it's only 3 hits and the base damage is higher) would make more of a difference. Then again, I haven't tested how much of a buff Hellfire actually adds yet, so it might be specific to each move rather than a flat +% value for all supers. It's going to hurt Chipp more than it helps him since his defense is low. He's also more likely to get killed before getting to use Hellfire supers than other characters in some matchups, and with his damage output he probably can't do the same to other characters (he's more likely to put someone in hellfire and need to open them up again, which is an opportunity to get blasted). Anyway, the damage buff to supers is only one aspect. Hellfire allowing you to be combo'd into IK on match point, when combined with the heavily increased guts, results in the following: 1. Chip damage is more important. It doesn't scale with guts. 1-A) Emphasizes meter use on FD or BS attempts. These are baited by: 2. Throws are situationally stronger. Normally when trying to kill someone at low enough life it was strong to go for a throw, possibly into RC/FRC > whatever for a finish. Now you can throw > RC > IK for an unburstable kill at 20% remaining health. Most characters don't have another way to do that kind of damage starting at the 20% breakpoint, and certainly not off of an instant throw with the 50% proration (or whatever each character gets for their throw) on top of guts kicking in for 40-50% damage reduction at that health range.
Destin Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 RC removes throw proration and replaces it with it's own proration. I'm pretty sure almost every char can do 20% off it's proration.
Circuitous Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 RC removes throw proration and replaces it with it's own proration. I'm pretty sure almost every char can do 20% off it's proration. You're right that throws are a special case, but you get the throw's proration (50%), not the RC's. (Note: command grabs still apply their proration in addition to the RC proration.)
Destin Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 You're right that throws are a special case, but you get the throw's proration (50%), not the RC's. (Note: command grabs still apply their proration in addition to the RC proration.) Well I am almost positive you can get around that by waiting out the RC slow, but perhaps if you still attack them during the slowdown it actually does apply the proration.
Circuitous Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 Well I am almost positive you can get around that by waiting out the RC slow, but perhaps if you still attack them during the slowdown it actually does apply the proration. Well yes but that's true for all RCs. It's not a special case for throws.
Destin Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 I was just saying, I don't think combo into IK is a particularly important mechanic.
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 It's not, but clearly it's something that received a good bit of consideration from Team Red. Probably the most practical application of IKs in both GG and BB so far.
StylisH Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 I was just saying, I don't think combo into IK is a particularly important mechanic. Nah, not really. It's mostly for style points and should've been implemented earlier IMO.
burningvigor Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 I was just saying, I don't think combo into IK is a particularly important mechanic. It's important to me because I make it a priority to attempt it if I have the meter lol. I've must have landed over 100 combo IK already. It's just too fun.
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 Also certain characters do have really easy routes into it. Sol can do it off of several different BnBs for 50% meter only.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 Also certain characters do have really easy routes into it. Sol can do it off of several different BnBs for 50% meter only. WT for freeeee
Destin Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 So for some of these characters is it actually the only way to finish off for a kill?
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