Sin vs. Ky

[Eshi]

Discuss the Ky match-up here.

 

Ky Board's Thread

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/forum/326-matchups/

 

Pros 

- Elk Hunter goes under Stun Edge

- Regardless of Ky's spacing, Hawk Baker will always clash with Ky's dust and can be canceled into follow-ups.

 

Cons 

- Ky's Stun Dipper is incredibly difficult to deal with - it goes active before and therefore always beats your Elk Hunter, and low profiles many of your pokes such as fS and Beak Driver.

 

General strategy

- Respect the threat of Stun Dipper. You can preemptively neutral jump to whiff punish it, or block it and punish it with instant block. Don't try to challenge it.

[Giggles454]

- When trying to low-profile Ky's DP in order to make it whiff, I've found that 2S actually works better than 2K or 2D.

- If the Ky player relies on "physical" meaties (eg 6H) rather than fireball meaties for Oki, 623S>236K should work often to flip the situation back into your favour.

[chzchan]

Having trouble anti-airing Ky since he can just air Stun Edge to bait and YRC to turn it into a full punish.

His AA is also godly. Trying to bait his anti-air is painful because he can dash 6P to mess up spacing and catch hops in pressure regardless of their length. Trying to cross him up to mess with this gets you air grabbed for free. Trying to eat his AA attempt with j.214S will get you 2H'd. Hell, he can even 6P through f.S and Beak Driver like Slayer can.

Stun Dipper low profiles Beak Driver and f.S and beats out Elk Hunt and 2S because of its amazing hitbox structure. Even if you Just Block it from the places where Ky players would use it in their blockstrings or in neutral, you will not be able to hit with normals other than 2S and f.S and in both cases you will be too far away to combo into a knockdown with consistency as Elk hunt and 2D will not connect. Stun Dipper can also be used to low profile Voltic Dein so it should never under any circumstances be used in neutral or during grounded pressure for reasons like eating instead of using an RC.

Full screen Bull Bash can be punished by Ky running up and DPing or just simply using Stun Edge, so it cannot be used at all in neutral.

Air grabbing Ky is a pain since his air grab range is so enourmous. You will find yourself getting air grabbed easily when the other player knows you are trying to anti-air with an air grab or just attempt an air-grab in general.

Stun Edge shuts down a lot of Sin's options even though he can destroy the projectile with Beak Driver or slide under it with Elk Hunt and if the Ky has 25 meter, both of those options will get you killed since he can punish the recovery of both during the slowdown of YRC with his amazing normals.

Eating and YRCing in neutral even at full screen will get you a Stun Edge to the face before you can block if they react to the eating cue accordingly.

The only time you can poke him out of his pressure is the small gap between his normals and 6H but trying to poke there is so easily punished and very very easy to mess up which will make you eat a huge combo. You can use FD to try and get him to whiff normals or screw up spacing but you will still probably end up continuing to block.

No idea how to play neutral against Ky so I usually end up blocking until I find an opening, though even Just Blocking his j.S doesn't allow me to grab him when he touches the ground even if he has air momentum so I usually resort to looking for where to Blitz Shield since using the DP is too easy to whiff due to Ky normals. If I ever do find an opening, I just deal my damage and then try to sit on the health lead without getting opened up since going back in against him doesn't seem worth it.

Also punishing Ky's Ride the Lightning is actually pretty difficult. I know you can't FD or else you will be pushed too far, but I run into the same situation as Stun Dipper. Properly spaced Greed Sever also has the same problem since hitting in the latter active frames will leave him both less negative on block and out of the range where f.S and 2S can combo into a knockdown without meter.

Ky can eat Elk Hunt with Split Ciel on reaction since it has low invuln starting from frame 5. Very very annoying. Especially annoying after they YRC Stun Edge since it will eat you alive unless you are also willing to spend 25 meter to simply go back to blocking. Absolute worst part is when you try to space yourself with normals to make the opponent block the latter frames of Elk Hunt to make it more positive and because the gap is larger between the blockstun of whatever normal/special you used and the frames when Elk Hunt actually hits, they can use Split Ciel as a sort of 5f jab out of any use of 236K from a distance. They can get you into this same situation by using FD themselves to push you so that it takes a longer time for the slide to hit. Frustrating as hell.

Without having to just block Elk Hunt, he can always Punch or Kick out and beat out all of Sin's normals due to all of them having 5 frame startup and having ridiculously good hitbox structure. Though all that needs to be done is condition them to mash so you can frame trap them into a delayed Beak Driver, it is still incredibly annoying that by default they can get out of Sin's awful pressure early in the conditioning game.

I am just at a loss here. This matchup seems pretty impossible unless the opponent both respects you from the beginning and makes a ton of mistakes.

[Giggles454]

With Stun Dipper, IB the 2nd hit and punish with 6H for whopping damage.

[edollarports]

I feel like 6H whiffs at most reasonable stun dipper spacings. If you block it point blank because he did the first hit too close and it drops, then...yeah, kill him.

 

I've played a lot of this so I'll break down your post.

tl;dr if you don't want to read: This match is decided in neutral. Ky has an incredible arsenal of neutral tools that can challenge yours, and you need to play around them. This is true for virtually every Ky matchup. Sin actually handles it better than a lot of the cast. (lol May)

If Ky presents an antiair, your jump-in will lose unless you Dein him. In a similar vein, Ky may not jump in on Sin's AAs unless he presents ASE, which you can slide YRC/run under/6P under at bad spacings and hit him for. He is essentially forced to YRC this if you show that you will go around it, because it's a 2H starter otherwise.

 

Dealing with Stun Dipper: Ky can just stun dipper where the fuck he wants and it's up to you to have a response. Outpoking it is honestly very difficult outside of YOMIGODLEVELSIRLOIN 3K, so I would just...get out of the way, or block it. On block, you can 2S 236H and go from there. if you IB the second hit close, you can 6H, if you IB it far, 2S 236H RC 6H will always work. Don't try to challenge it head on. 2S 236H is basic damage, and any damage you can tack on as Sin is one step closer to the random kill.

 

On Bull Bash: Every character can disrespect bull bash on reaction or via something like what you mentioned. That's not reason to stop using it if you believe it won't get hit. Sin, like Ky, presents a wide variety of options, and worrying about stuff like 'BUT X COULD BEAT Y' is going up the creek without a paddle vs Ky-- this char has a hard answer to everything if he tries hard enough. Bull bash, primarily, should be used to swat people out of the air.

 

Airthrowing Ky: git gud, scoops better. Honestly seems pretty normal, Ky will scoop more because his movement/situations allow for it better.

 

SE YRC: Every character in the game holds SE YRC. Accept your fate and if you think it's coming, don't challenge. Just block or get out of the way.

 

Eating fullscreen: This is untrue. Eat YRC can not be reaction SE'd fullscreen without a YRC, and even then it's iffy. I wouldn't eat fullscreen unless Ky's the one backing off anyways. Just make him block something and eat when he's not ready. If he's doing it fast enough he's probably SEing in reaction to  you twitching. In this case, just 214K6 at him. If he commits to the SE and doesn't YRC you're landing a j.6H starter for 250 minimum. If he YRCs, you robbed him of 25 meter. Also, this applies to all SE really. 

 

Blocking Ky: He's very plus, very susceptible to FD, and relies on tricky conditioning to hit you with stuff. It's very basic GG defense, really. Push him out, jump out, whiff punish, block something minus and mash, DP, blitz, backdash, etc etc . Lots of tools to work with here and his damage really isn't there to make it scary. Meanwhile you land like whiff punish 2D 236K 236H and a mixup and you could win or something.

 

Neutral vs Ky: Ky's a passive character who can't commit actively too hard without leaving himself open-- if he does, just slug it out, your damage comes up on top. You shouldn't block too many j.Ses, just AA him with 6P or something. Blitz is good too. Basically you're just going to play footsies with him until one character gets hit. 6P, f.S, and 2S are big normals in this matchup, but the usual stuff- drivers, vaults, slide(YRC), and bash all come into play. On Ky's side his options are either not excessively strong/have limitations (f.S/6P) or require commitment/meter (A)SE, greed sever, stun dipper. Ky 6P is a bitch on the ground or air though seriously fuck that move

 

Punishing RTL and greed: RTL punishes can be optimal or you can be lazy like me and just super them back or something. It's -22, I'm sure you can work something out (dash 6H is usually the best bet, do it earlier than  you'd think). Greed Sever is a bitch to punish if you don't IB it and you're not doing to convert knockdown without meter, but damage is damage and you can spare 1 food stock for it

Stun Dipper vs split ciel: That's the hard call. You can YRC if he doesn't have the fireball out to whiff punish the split and get your game going. If he SE YRCs I wouldn't suggest sliding to begin with, but I think 25 meter for 25 meter when he was about to stuff you is a fair exchange. If the Ky gets split ciel happy, just YRC slide or do something else for a change. I guarantee you that if you overwhelm him with everything Sin can do, things like splitting slide/punishing far eats cannot be consistently performed on reaction. If it's frustrating that you can't just slide in when  you feel like it, then...idk, RIP. But that shouldn't be the case.

 

Ky's 5f normals are actually stuffed by Sin 5K from most spacings. I wouldn't go in unless you've amassed a lot of respect but it's not terribly hard to do as Sin. No one wants to get hit so they all get antsy as hell, which lets you make moves that wouldn't seem that great normally.

In conclusion, I think this matchup is generally a test of the Sin/Ky player's level of comfort with their own characters' gameplans. Sin wants to use his mobility/various larger and safer (but slightly inferior all-around) options to overwhelm Ky and force him to crumple in 2-3 combos, and Ky needs to stand his ground and not let Sin's nonsense get to him, which is basic Ky gameplan, but harder than usual due to Sin's reasonable arsenal. It's similar to the Slayer matchup in this regard for Ky, but Sin's neutral is far more difficult for Ky to handle.

Most JP/US players I've seen comment on this MU rate it at ~5.5/4.5 in Sin's favor.

[chzchan]

Thanks for responding to each individual point. I feel slightly more comfortable now that I have some of the answers, but I still feel like I will struggle. Even if the matchup is supposedly in Sin's favor probably just due to his damage I don't think it will really feel like it for me personally until I have had more experience with the matchup. I'm only trying pretty basic tactics when looking at what to do and when and I easily crumble in the matchup when I get low on food. I will try my hardest to apply what I have learned here.

 

The "well-rounded" character matchup has always given me trouble in every game since you by default have to work harder regardless of what your character excels in unless you're playing the same character, but I'll see what I can do about this.

[edollarports]

At a lower level, it's harder to manage, because Ky does not have to worry about as much unless you make him. The matchup value is decided with damage, in neutral I believe Ky has a slight edge and  he will win more exchanges, probably 55%-70% of exchanges in any given match.

It's important to keep your cool and always remember that it's just your call vs theirs. If the Ky possesses a better neutral game, it will feel oppressive, but it can only get better if you evaluate your decisions and don't do some jank shit like airdash into 6P 3 times in a row or some other autopilot.

[chzchan]

Oh a question if you can answer it:

Let's say you get a successful burst out of one f Ky's combos and you are low on food. What should you do? Ky is able to forward air tech and air dash forward or do air Stun Edge if he has no meter and a few other things if he does have meter. I usually end up eating at j.S even if I don't try to eat. What I have tried doing is 214S/236H YRC and then air grab so I can eat but that is pretty inconsistent. I don't bother trying to 6P him because he can air dah into air stun edge though I should try doing as you said and 236K YRCing into 2H to punish.

Here's another bonus one. Which enders should I go for primarily in this matchup at different food level?

[Eshi]

Let's say you get a successful burst out of one f Ky's combos and you are low on food. What should you do? Ky is able to forward air tech and air dash forward or do air Stun Edge if he has no meter and a few other things if he does have meter. I usually end up eating at j.S even if I don't try to eat. What I have tried doing is 214S/236H YRC and then air grab so I can eat but that is pretty inconsistent. I don't bother trying to 6P him because he can air dah into air stun edge though I should try doing as you said and 236K YRCing into 2H to punish.

This isn't a problem specific to Ky, defensive burst always allows air tech and almost everyone can air dash back in to punish eat. There is no single answer, you have to decide every time if you want to risk eating or do nothing and reaction punish air dashing.

[chzchan]

Ky having air Stun Edge makes it harder than a good handful of other characters, but yeah every character can just airdash in and smack Sin before he can eat.

I was just trying to figure out what to do depending on what option the Ky player decides to take so I can try to apply it.

[edollarports]

After bursting when low on food: You can eat there, or you can...not eat there. It's the same as eating in any other situation. Why are you scared to 6P  his j.S? The game is about taking their health bar to zero, not avoiding random hits like ASE that won't even lead to anything without some EMP confirm or the other.

Don't weight the reward of an AA 6P on an equal scale with 'eating an ASE'.

 

Enders: If you're going to eat, obviously end with a knockdown. If you're not worried about a burst, blow all your food before you eat. If you do a slide stab ender, you'll usually have 5-7k to work with and a (totally not) safe jump to mix him up off of. Honestly nothing here is really Ky specific. You either
1. knock him down and eat
2. Knock him down and mixup
3. Knock him down and eat, YRC in (this won't work off midscreen stab enders)

4. Do an RTL ender
5. Do a voltec setup

Obviously the lower the food you have the more likely eating is probably a good idea nad the lower reward you'll get if you land a hit, but the decision to press on or not is your call.