JackG Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Punishes: Anti-airing: Zoning: Their game plan: Strategy: Char specific details:
Anchor Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 What is your opinion on this match up? How best to get at Arakune?
JackG Posted July 4, 2009 Author Posted July 4, 2009 Well I honestly haven't played this matchup at all until last weekend at the Austin qualifiers, in which Copper Dabbit destroyed me. The latest Japanese rankings list this as Hakumen's worst matchup at 2-8 (I'm under the impression it probably is, if not V-13) A few initial impressions; really don't jump around when you're cursed unless you're using barrier, because those bugs are GROUNDED for some reason... Also don't be afraid you use your CA, because you'll have plenty of bar. Getting in is the hardest part. Will post more when I get my hands on the game and can play
Rollie the Guar Posted July 4, 2009 Posted July 4, 2009 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4MqTCIDKhU&feature=related Goodness this matchup is frustrating.
qwerty Posted July 4, 2009 Posted July 4, 2009 Well I honestly haven't played this matchup at all until last weekend at the Austin qualifiers, in which Copper Dabbit destroyed me. hahah, he has a way of doing that. anyways, i actually don't think this matchup is quite as bad as it seems (especially compared to nu), though it can be downright hellish at times. the one really good thing about this matchup for hakumen is that arakune (especially if he bursts) takes damage like a bitch, and this is going to be how you win against arakune; punish when possible and punish hard. one thing to keep in mind is that it's actually safer for hakumen to turtle at the start of the round because arakune hasn't marked you yet. in case some of you didn't know, hakumen's 2C beats the hover cloud and 5C/6C/j.C will beat the sphere cloud (the one that travels all over the screen). however, be cautious of when you eat the clouds, because if you're stuck in autoguard for too long arakune can punish you for free- and it will just go on forever, take half of your life, and you'll end up getting marked at the end of the combo anyways. other than that, just be especially aware of your distance and range on your moves, and learn when to punish arakune. i try to catch him in landing recovery after he does j.6A/B/C or j.236D and sometimes i'll try to predict where he teleports and try to land a 6C/j.C, though that's for when i'm feeling bold. it is a hard matchup, no doubt, but it's by no means impossible. i've probably had more experience with this matchup out of the entire roster so far (thanks to being part of the 10 game+ streaks of copperdabbit and hellfromabove), so i can say with confidence that if you're patient and can guard everything that comes your way (easier said than done), you can beat arakune.
Anchor Posted July 4, 2009 Posted July 4, 2009 Yeah I totally agree. I'll just have to practice a lot.
Kumlekar Posted July 4, 2009 Posted July 4, 2009 From what I've seen online, this matchup basically involves waiting for arakune to make a mistake and punishing it. I like super jumping in at the start of the match to see if I can catch arakune if he tries to make a homing cloud at the start (no idea if this is actually a good idea, but it seems to work outside of the competitive level). If he manages to curse you and trap you in a corner, do whatever it takes to get out, even if it means taking unnecessary hits. If he starts his spitting loop, theres very little haku can do. I'd take this over Nu or Rachel any day.
Anchor Posted July 4, 2009 Posted July 4, 2009 I'm surprised V-13 hasn't been banned. She can play keep away anyday and it doesned matter if she goes into Negative Warning. She'll just keep you at bay with her Drive. Which is a really ridiculous in my opinion. If you watch the tutorial video you'll see that most of her combos is just pressing Drive. I don't think BlazBlue is going to last long if all anyone is playing is V-13. Its probably going to come down to just V-13s at tournaments eventually.
Silmerion Posted July 4, 2009 Posted July 4, 2009 I'm surprised V-13 hasn't been banned. She can play keep away anyday and it doesned matter if she goes into Negative Warning. She'll just keep you at bay with her Drive. Which is a really ridiculous in my opinion. If you watch the tutorial video you'll see that most of her combos is just pressing Drive. I don't think BlazBlue is going to last long if all anyone is playing is V-13. Its probably going to come down to just V-13s at tournaments eventually.You're posting this in the wrong section and you're horribly wrong! That might be a first. But hey, you're new. Learn to play the match-up and you'll find that she's not even close to impossible to beat.
Blade Posted July 4, 2009 Posted July 4, 2009 This is my own experience from playing against my friend's Arakune who he's just learning but...the best thing I learned to do is to wait for him to do something physical next to you and nullify anything as safely as you can, his sword can eat a lot of things spat at him, bugs and clouds included, so that helps a little, just be cautious of timing and recovery and keep an eye out for stuff coming up from the floor, especially when he's in the air. You can probably expect a lot of throw attempts I think, also his air to ground pressure can be anticipated and countered well enough. An idle Haku-men is a dangerous thing I think, because when he's waiting for strikes he's still building stars. No need to do jump-ins in this case, since Arakune will be doing all the closing in for you.
Anchor Posted July 5, 2009 Posted July 5, 2009 You're posting this in the wrong section and you're horribly wrong! That might be a first. But hey, you're new. Learn to play the match-up and you'll find that she's not even close to impossible to beat. Yes I posted my statement in the wrong forum. Yes. I'm new to this forum. I'm not new to the fighting game scene. My post was directed at the person who made this thread, because I wanted his opinion. Its a lot of hassle trying to ump from one thread to another on my phone. No one is impossible to beat, it all comes down to what percent is the chance that you will win against such a character. I make a valid point. I know going to tournaments is all about winning. But not everyone is going to have a fair chance to win. BB isn't like 3rd strike where anyone can win because of the parry system.
Silmerion Posted July 5, 2009 Posted July 5, 2009 How can anyone win in 3S? Yun and Chun win almost every tournament, then what winnings are left are divided amongst Ken, Makoto, Dudley, and a bare smattering of mid-tiers. About half of the cast isn't considered tournament-viable. Anyway, Nu is strong, but I'd recommend gathering more information about her and Blazblue's balance at a competetive level before jumping to such derogatory adjectives as "broken". Fair?
JinSaotome Posted July 5, 2009 Posted July 5, 2009 I'm surprised V-13 hasn't been banned. She can play keep away anyday and it doesned matter if she goes into Negative Warning. She'll just keep you at bay with her Drive. Which is a really ridiculous in my opinion. If you watch the tutorial video you'll see that most of her combos is just pressing Drive. I don't think BlazBlue is going to last long if all anyone is playing is V-13. Its probably going to come down to just V-13s at tournaments eventually.
Angrynord Posted July 5, 2009 Posted July 5, 2009 I'm surprised V-13 hasn't been banned. She can play keep away anyday and it doesned matter if she goes into Negative Warning. She'll just keep you at bay with her Drive. Which is a really ridiculous in my opinion. If you watch the tutorial video you'll see that most of her combos is just pressing Drive. I don't think BlazBlue is going to last long if all anyone is playing is V-13. Its probably going to come down to just V-13s at tournaments eventually. Ach, just...no. Seriously, Nu isn't that bad. I would rather fight Nu than Old Sagat (ST) or Sagat in SFIV any day. An idle Haku-men is a dangerous thing I think, because when he's waiting for strikes he's still building stars. No need to do jump-ins in this case, since Arakune will be doing all the closing in for you. That is the nice thing about Hakumen: One can afford to be patient. I normally don't sit too idle during matches, but if I choose to sit on a lead, that aspect of Hakumen is extremely helpful. Hakumen just strikes me as a character who rewards strong basics, and who should be played patiently (that's not to say passively). The fact that he has counters as his drive I think speaks loudly of what the designers intended for him. As to the matchup...yeah, I must say that I hate this one. I don't feel too threatened when Arakune doesn't have me cursed, but the difficulty just really amps up when he finally lands it. This is one matchup where I'm completely content to idle and grant the opponent a wide berth. Buh, I hate the little bastard.
Kumlekar Posted July 5, 2009 Posted July 5, 2009 Hakumen just strikes me as a character who rewards strong basics, Thats the best description of Haku I've heard. Also, He might be patient, but he also has an epic air dash.
Angrynord Posted July 5, 2009 Posted July 5, 2009 Indeed. When I first got my hands on the game, my feelings on Haku's mobility were not exactly elated...that is, until I started doing IADs. Yeah, Haku's design is just concise and elegant. He has nothing that he does not need, nor does he really lack anything. He might seem wanting on the surface, but he has certain traits that cover his flaws. Can he get rushed down easily? Yes, but he can make an ass out of anyone who doesn't respect his Drive. Can he be zoned easily? Yes, but he can destroy projectiles at will (gaining meter!), and when he catches zoners, he tears through them like wet tissues. He lacks mixup, but he doesn't really need it. I really think folks are sleeping on ol' Hakumen. Hopefully one day we'll all chuckle at thinking that Arakune was a hard matchup.
Kumlekar Posted July 5, 2009 Posted July 5, 2009 He has nothing that he does not need, nor does he really lack anything A reasonable* overhead? *reasonable being defineind as one that does not use stars.
Jissai Posted July 5, 2009 Posted July 5, 2009 I have one HELL of a time playing my friend's Arakune. Especially when he's keeping me trapped full screen and plays run away. What do you do then? Granted, I'm still new to all of this, so I'm not sure if there is something there right away that makes it safe to jump in. If there is, it flew over my head. Anyway, I'll try to just stay put and build stars and try to notice what's happening, then try to get a nicely zoned j.C, but it doesn't always work that way. Definitely a match-up I want to get extremely familiar with.
whitevoid Posted July 5, 2009 Posted July 5, 2009 A reasonable overhead? 41236C overheads at 21 frames. you also have 66 ~ 214C. the dash cancels on frame 6, and 214C executes in 15, putting it at 21ish depending on your inputs. Speed-wise that's pretty comparable to most overheads. Noel's 6B is like 24 frames I think. Jin's 6A is faster at 19 but much more punishable. Generally, his are some of the safer overheads. Damage-wise, I'm sure other characters can get more, but Hakumen is pretty solid I feel. Nothing to complain about at least. Of course, it costs orbs to use his overheads, but you can say that about everything he does. *edit. didn't see your edit. regardless, I don't see why it's unreasonable for him to need stars for his overhead. you could say the same thing for everything he does. 3 stars isn't really all that bad imo. sucks that you can't hit confirm, but I just think of it as a cheaper, pre-emptive roman cancel to make it safe on block and do damage on hit.
Angrynord Posted July 5, 2009 Posted July 5, 2009 A reasonable* overhead? *reasonable being defineind as one that does not use stars. *shrug* I dunno. Overheads are nice to have, but to me it never seemed like a character was missing something if they lacked one. Then again, my main game has been ST for years, so I'm just used to characters not having overheads. It's somewhat odd coming to BB and seeing that everyone in the whole cast has at least one overhead. I'm unsure if that was the case in GG as well, as I have not played it extensively enough to know the entire cast. That said, I don't think Hakumen needs a normal overhead. Sure, it would be nice, but Haku already has a severely damaging overhead on the ground that leads into big damage, and another one that can be tigerkneed and comes out wicked fast. Yes, they cost stars, but that's a small price to pay when you can take half a life bar from a combo off of them. Really though, we should have this discussion in the general thread, not here. Sorry guys for starting it >.<. Still hate Arakune.
JackG Posted July 5, 2009 Author Posted July 5, 2009 As much as I love to complain about Arakune and V-13, we should leave this thread to constructive input :P Something I've been curious about. When Arakune gets your cursed in the corner and starts his 3d 2 hit bug spam, 1) is it possible to get off a super counter inbetween there and 2) If so, is Arakune free to move? That's really the only thing I can see that could help the matchup, but I'm guessing Arakune wouldn't be frozen and thus could just superjump it.
Kumlekar Posted July 5, 2009 Posted July 5, 2009 41236C overheads at 21 frames. you also have 66 ~ 214C. the dash cancels on frame 6, and 214C executes in 15, putting it at 21ish depending on your inputs. Speed-wise that's pretty comparable to most overheads. Noel's 6B is like 24 frames I think. Jin's 6A is faster at 19 but much more punishable. Generally, his are some of the safer overheads. Damage-wise, I'm sure other characters can get more, but Hakumen is pretty solid I feel. Nothing to complain about at least. Of course, it costs orbs to use his overheads, but you can say that about everything he does. *edit. didn't see your edit. regardless, I don't see why it's unreasonable for him to need stars for his overhead. you could say the same thing for everything he does. 3 stars isn't really all that bad imo. sucks that you can't hit confirm, but I just think of it as a cheaper, pre-emptive roman cancel to make it safe on block and do damage on hit. 3 stars isn't bad? Thats almost as much as an over drive. Is his spitting attack a projectile? It might not be, thats the only thing that might be counterable in his corner trap.
reaVer Posted July 5, 2009 Posted July 5, 2009 That overhead by itself takes 3000+ damage which is about 1/3rd of what most opponents have to offer. I mean, you can complain all you want, but regardless, that overhead hurts really bad. Then if you have 2 stars you can nearly double that damage and take away half life. Considering that Hakumen's primary game is hit vs throw and that that overhead should come out of nowhere, that's gonna be one pissed off opponent when he eats it(and the likelihood he does is huge). My take on Arakune: get that tag on him and rush that shit down using 623A(~A/Throw) vs 236A mixups. It goes quickly, he's stuck for a while and the only moment he can move is after you combo'ed him(or when you totally fucked up). At the moment he can move you can IAD.5C and you're very likely to get the tag again where you can rinse and repeat. If you get in neutral game, just be patient, he likes to fly, so you should either j.early-C and fish for counters or stay on the ground and have that 6A/2C/5D/6D ready. Keep in mind that while in the air, he can do a low attack that can curse you(so he gets unblockable and more spam), so it's best to stay with him in the air. If you see him teleport and you have no god forsaken clue where he's going immediately respond with 5C, it will usually attack in the right direction and if he went towards you, he eats it + your follow up combo. If you get tagged by the curse, try to get the tag on him immediately(tech, attack), if he did anything you're free, otherwise you still have a tiny bit of time to get one mixup off before entering the totally shitty situation. (Of course, that mixup on success cancels the shitty situation.) While in shitty situation, staying in the air is probably your best bet. He can't do too much when he gets anything on you so you're just dealing with minor annoyances while your meter is getting filled. The moment you break free and get the tag you can repay him in full.
qwerty Posted July 5, 2009 Posted July 5, 2009 That overhead by itself takes 3000+ damage which is about 1/3rd of what most opponents have to offer. I mean, you can complain all you want, but regardless, that overhead hurts really bad. Then if you have 2 stars you can nearly double that damage and take away half life. Considering that Hakumen's primary game is hit vs throw and that that overhead should come out of nowhere, that's gonna be one pissed off opponent when he eats it(and the likelihood he does is huge). eh, zantetsu isn't THAT good of an overhead in the sense that most (good) people will be able to guard it on reaction. but yes, getting a CH 5C during arakune's landing recovery into a zantetsu combo is the way to go for damage. While in shitty situation, staying in the air is probably your best bet. He can't do too much when he gets anything on you so you're just dealing with minor annoyances while your meter is getting filled. The moment you break free and get the tag you can repay him in full. i'm going to disagree here on the basis that a) arakune has incredible anti airs (as well as clouds, which while you're in the air are usually out of j.C/j.2C range) and b) he cannot touch you at full screen if you aren't marked. so yeah, if you wanna turtle, i'd recommend going full screen and then just being ready to react to whatever he does (be it a teleport, jump in or whatever else).
reaVer Posted July 5, 2009 Posted July 5, 2009 eh, zantetsu isn't THAT good of an overhead in the sense that most (good) people will be able to guard it on reaction. but yes, getting a CH 5C during arakune's landing recovery into a zantetsu combo is the way to go for damage.If people only see that thing come out at the third round or so their senses to it are going to be dulled regardless. It's imperative you keep high speeds throughout the game of course. i'm going to disagree here on the basis that a) arakune has incredible anti airs (as well as clouds, which while you're in the air are usually out of j.C/j.2C range) and b) he cannot touch you at full screen if you aren't marked. so yeah, if you wanna turtle, i'd recommend going full screen and then just being ready to react to whatever he does (be it a teleport, jump in or whatever else).Of course, you're not going to be staying in the air for long if you lunge towards your opponent now are you?:p Anyways, if you stay at range and semi-near the ground you can land 623A~A the first moment he tries to AA you. Use j.C near the ground to guard your landing, not to get the tag on him. In contrast, everything he has, doesn't really work anymore if you stay on that range in the air. Probably the same as with staying fullscreen, except you're risking negative penalty and corner traps by doing so.
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