whitevoid

6A on crouchers would be great. Open up a lot of damage options on normal hits. 5C being jump cancellable would be super-sexy though.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that everyone can effectively jump at everyone... there are differently relative disparities amongst characters and in match-ups. 6-4 is correct though (more or less). Mu != Nu. End of discussion in my eyes.

@kuma. Were you paying attention to the original conversation? Do you see what I'm getting at? Because honestly, I have no idea what you are on about.

I do miss the old 5C, mainly because it looked awesome and was jump cancelable. They should make it a command normal, 4C.

So what on earth are you complaining about then? QQ.

Uh, no. You are wrong. You're just making excuses for yourself. If you are playing "auto-pilot," then you are mashing, at least in my eyes. When I say "mash" I don't mean literally frantically pressing buttons, I mean pressing buttons without formulating a strategy. My point is if you are playing in a way that is disconnected from what is going on in the match, then you might as well just be frantically pressing buttons for all it's worth. It doesn't matter how "sound or good" that is, it's still mashing. Don't be another flow-chart Ken.

TBH, if you get beat by mashing you probably were mashing yourself or they weren't actually mashing.

They are the same thing in principle. If you want to argue semantics, it's really moot as his point would remain the same. Technically, I don't think most people would call a standing combo cut into a mix-up a reset. They'd just call it a mix-up. Generally, I've always thought of resets more like what Synthesis is calling it, loops that don't combo. But this is all semantics, and that's a discussion for scholars not fighters.

I'd say it's a matter of the opponent's play primarily. If someone is generically having a problem with mix-ups, then they'll likely have a problem with this one as well. If they are in a panic mode because you are in the lead, you can also read off of that and feel out if they get better or worse. For instance, if I get frustrated you can hit me with pretty much anything. Other people might play looser when they are up so it's the opposite. To be honest, I haven't really messed around with your set-ups too much as I was trying to get some other combos down, so I can't say specifically. I remember the most interesting of them was actually your d.6B +4 frames oki on emergency tech, much better than a canned mix-up in my opinion though you're sacrificing a bit of damage. You get counter throws if they try to poke (and green throws if they block) and it's easy to bait out moves, not to mention you beat out a variety of incorrect teching options. Another thing Tekken taught me is that wake-ups > mix-ups (fucking True Ogre bullshit). Waking up correctly requires very specific narrow knowledge, blocking mid-low is very general and broad. But I don't think there is a hardline threshold. Whatever works use it. Just because something is a lesser tool, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be used. I mean, I said jab strings are better than jab into mix-up, but it's not like people *don't* do that. It's just a lesser tool. I think the distinction here is one is strategic, and the other is tactical. You use a good tactic because you are trying to maneuver around your opponent in terms of a thinking reacting being. This means that you can take sub-optimal plays because it hits them in a blindspot. You think that they are not going to see that mix-up or whatever. But you use a good strategy because it is optimal, and thus by nature generally extremely risk adverse. Why let give your opponent a chance to take less damage or damage you at all?

SERIOUSLY?! I'm going to blame it on the fact that I play on a tiny ass television.

OH yeah... Inferno Divider... I like how I'll always call that move anything but it's name, dragon punch, volcanic viper... but inferno divider. If I looked at Hakumen's 2C and his 6A, I would have thought that his 2C would have invulnerability and that his 6A wouldn't. I don't really know what to say. If you are going to make unfounded assumptions about moves that end up being wrong, most people would just go "uh oh, I made an unfounded assumption about something, but i was wrong and i won't do that again" not cry out that it's broken. There is nothing about Tager's Sledge that makes me think "projectile invulnerable!" But it is. It doesn't need a flashing sign telling me that. Jin's 623A you would think has some invulnerability to it, but it doesn't. Hazama's command throw has invulnerability but Bang's doesn't. Why doesn't Noel's jD which shoots down at you from over your head count as an overhead, when she is shooting from over your head? Because that's just the way it is. Figuring that stuff out is what experience and testing is for. (and forums). This isn't Street Fighter.

Are you serious? There are visual indications that a move is invincible? I seriously need to may more attention when I play... What the heck is IDing? Was he trying to buy beer from you?.... Wait. Hold on. Are you saying you have trouble against drive spam? I'm so confused.

To be honest, I don't think her Drive is THAT bad. You just need to realize that she has over twice as many Drive moves as most people, but it's not like every other character is going to mash D for the win or they have like 12 awesome Drive attacks. You don't really use Makoto's Drive attacks outside of combos, but I don't really see people give her a hard time about that. But plenty of Noel's Drive attacks (mostly the starters) are actually solid attacks, and her Drive pretty is essential for her combos. I think it's less that there is something terribly, terribly wrong with it, and more that there is just a lot of it that is fairly irrelevant and so there is a lot to critique. Jin's 5D isn't a particularly good move, but it is just one move. Even though it's 25% of his 4 (meterless) Drive moves, it's still just one move. Noel has like 25% of her Drive moves being good, but she has like 15 of them so there are a lot more of them that aren't particularly good.

By his "other counters" you should mean 5D. 6D and 2D are pretty much irreplaceable. But a good jD tends to be much better than 5D (notice that they buffed 5D a little bit). On Noel, it's more that it's far from being anything that is a serious issue. There are plenty of things that character can do without, but I don't see any significant problems for balance reasons that would require such a nerf.

The main issue I'd have with deliberately missing the combo in this situation is that you have to assume that they'll at least block it. d.6B just isn't ridiculously fast or anything and logically there aren't many things that make sense for the opponent to do. It doesn't really make sense for them to be mashing buttons on a standing combo, sometimes it works but most of the time if they drop it, blocking the move is plenty good. This puts you in a bad situation because at the very best you opted out of damage. And sure, we can discuss DPing or whatever, but most of the time good people will block when they are attacked. If they do something else it's either because they know, which is bad, or they don't so they are just panicking. This is not to say, don't do it or try it, but it's not a stable thing to do. It's just very gimmicky. Like, I hit with Assault Through plenty of times, but once someone shows me they can block it, I have to stop. Now this works fine with Carl and Tager, but that's because of what happens when they block. Blocking against Tager? Obviously, this makes you very vulnerable to being thrown. And with Carl due to the nature of Nirvana, his options and his strength of his options are much much bigger than in this case. I'm pretty sure that this is the correct answer, i.e. unless you are really good at punishing blocking generically (and the 6D/6B mix-up is insufficient), then go for the guaranteed damage. Aside from BB and GG, I mostly play(ed) Tekken and so this sort of situation is pretty much ubiquitous to all characters, and you almost never omit damage for a standing mix-up. Lowering damage for Wakes is different, but it's pretty clear that great jab strings are so much better than doing a jab into some mix-up.

Still don't want to try her.

I'm actually glad that if there are going to be large changes. I like learning characters, so long as it's a learning for the better/more interesting.

That would be sexy.

does anyone know how much time it was between the first loketest and the final release the first time around (i.e. when BBCS was released)?

Exactly. You're just playing against the opponent, which is just a lot of basic fundamentals and knowing your match-ups. j4D being good!??! Oooohh... nice. I want that move to be good so bad.

You don't have Noel listed. I feel with Arakune there is a slight advantage, Mu 5.5-4.5. I think Carl could be 6-4. I think Hakumen, Jin, and Lambda are better in the match-up. 6-4, Hakumen, 5-5 Jin, and 5.5-4.5 Lambda.

I doubt we'll see a balance patch until sometime after all the DLC characters are released. "Ideal Noel playstyle..." I really think this is the core reason why Noel is underused/ragged on, when she's fundamentally not that bad. She just doesn't really have a dominant playstyle. She doesn't have tricky gimmicks or spammy moves that she can crutch on. This means that she requires a lot of knowledge of opposing characters. It's easy to figure out Noel. These are her lows, and theses are her overheads. What else is there? But other characters are not so easy to figure out. But once you do figure them out for the most part she isn't all that bad. It's just that a character's style would typically limit the opposing character's style, but since Noel can't really do that she is in a position to have to learn more of their style than they do of hers. Which makes her feel weak, and in a certain manner of speaking be weak, but on the other hand once you do have it figured out, she's not really all that bad.

I used to wonder that too, but when you look at who's in A it makes sense. She just doesn't ever get as absurd as the A tier characters can get.

I like this list. Though I'm not super sold on Hazama being S as opposed to A, but I definitely can see why people think that. But in my eyes he's more A, it's just that unlike the other A tiers he is stable across the field (unlike Carl and Arakune) and has greater potential to go broke (Hakumen). This essentially gives him the characteristics that those A tier characters lack which would place them in S, but imo he's still closer to A tier characters then the S tier characters. But like Henaki said, pretty much irrelevant. I like giving props for Noel being B tier, as she's not as terrible as most people like to think. She's solid, she just lacks anything really amazing or cheap to crutch on.

J2C is jump cancelable. If not for BBS, I would put her in B tier. However, easy meter gain and lots of meterless damage means she'll almost always have it available. And so BBS lets her threaten somewhat if she can't get in.