whitevoid Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 3 stars isn't bad? Thats almost as much as an over drive. ... which has no relevance at all because Hakumen's gauge is not a heat gauge. I probably blow at least around 4-5 "overdrives" worth of orbs with Hakumen in a round, which is a lot more than I ever have available with any other character.
ryokoalways Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 Well you have auto gain passively, and the meter value for one magatama is different. Which is why they had to floor hakumen's heat gauge rate.
Fenix Darkblaze Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 I've found that getting as far away from Arakune as possible can be pretty effective. Even though you have no attacks at that range, it seems he doesn't have anything effective either. His clouds, sure, but you can slash those for free magatama.. He has I think one attack I've seen that can hit you that far that's not a cloud, and it's easily blocked. An Arakune coming into close range even for five seconds can be deadly, since Hakumen hits like a freight train. And given the amount of time it's taken most Arakune players I've fought to realize they've got to close in, you'll have plenty of nice magatama to knock the crap out of him.
Kumlekar Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 I've found that getting as far away from Arakune as possible can be pretty effective. Even though you have no attacks at that range, it seems he doesn't have anything effective either. His clouds, sure, but you can slash those for free magatama.. He has I think one attack I've seen that can hit you that far that's not a cloud, and it's easily blocked. An Arakune coming into close range even for five seconds can be deadly, since Hakumen hits like a freight train. And given the amount of time it's taken most Arakune players I've fought to realize they've got to close in, you'll have plenty of nice magatama to knock the crap out of him. He has two drive attacks that aren't clouds. One is his spitting thing which if you aren't cursed already isn't much of a threat, though I think it is a low attack. the one that always gets me is his jump drive that attacks out of the ground. Its quite unpredictialbe though he has to be almost directly above you. Its the one reason that 2C is a bit of a dangerous anti-air against him.
Fenix Darkblaze Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 He has two drive attacks that aren't clouds. One is his spitting thing which if you aren't cursed already isn't much of a threat, though I think it is a low attack. the one that always gets me is his jump drive that attacks out of the ground. Its quite unpredictialbe though he has to be almost directly above you. Its the one reason that 2C is a bit of a dangerous anti-air against him. You know, I'm not sure if his jump drive can hit you from max range. I tend to stay on the ground crouching against Arakune. His anti-air game is ridiculous when you're cursed, jumping in will get you bounced all over the place.. I've never seen anyone use his spitting drive thing as an anti-air, most people try to grab you to set you up for it online. Arakune is a stupidly difficult matchup, but not nearly as annoying as Nu or Rachel. In my experience against him so far, setting the pace yourself by making him come to you is the key to winning against him. Let him set the pace and you'll get bounced all over the place.
Angrynord Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 As much as I love to complain about Arakune and V-13, we should leave this thread to constructive input :P Duly noted. Like I said, my bad. Something I've been curious about. When Arakune gets your cursed in the corner and starts his 3d 2 hit bug spam, 1) is it possible to get off a super counter inbetween there and 2) If so, is Arakune free to move? That's really the only thing I can see that could help the matchup, but I'm guessing Arakune wouldn't be frozen and thus could just superjump it. Is his spitting attack a projectile? It might not be, thats the only thing that might be counterable in his corner trap. I'm going to test this out tomorrow and report back with findings, unless someone beats me to it. It might count as a projectile though, like Litchi's staff. I had noticed that Hakumen's astral finish will not counter projectiles, and found that several of Litchi's staff normals will not get countered by the astral, so they probably act as projectiles somewhat. It wouldn't surprise me if some of Arakune's attacks are treated in a similar manner by the game.
Kumlekar Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 You know, I'm not sure if his jump drive can hit you from max range. I tend to stay on the ground crouching against Arakune. His anti-air game is ridiculous when you're cursed, jumping in will get you bounced all over the place.. I've never seen anyone use his spitting drive thing as an anti-air, most people try to grab you to set you up for it online. Arakune is a stupidly difficult matchup, but not nearly as annoying as Nu or Rachel. In my experience against him so far, setting the pace yourself by making him come to you is the key to winning against him. Let him set the pace and you'll get bounced all over the place. I think you misunderstood which attacks I'm talking about. When I said spitting attack, I meant the one that he uses for his corner lockdown, (2D I think it is) not his distortion drive (which would be pretty useless against haku as an anti-air). His j.3D has a bit of range on it, but nothign crazy. As for his j.214214D, the move extends out from directly under arakune, essentially shielding him, though the bugs only come out if it hits.
Fenix Darkblaze Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 I think you misunderstood which attacks I'm talking about. When I said spitting attack, I meant the one that he uses for his corner lockdown, (2D I think it is) not his distortion drive (which would be pretty useless against haku as an anti-air). His j.3D has a bit of range on it, but nothign crazy. As for his j.214214D, the move extends out from directly under arakune, essentially shielding him, though the bugs only come out if it hits. Ahh, I got you now. Sorry, still learning the terminology around here. Only discovered the forums about two days ago.
Kumlekar Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 I'm going to test this out tomorrow and report back with findings, unless someone beats me to it. It might count as a projectile though, like Litchi's staff. I had noticed that Hakumen's astral finish will not counter projectiles, and found that several of Litchi's staff normals will not get countered by the astral, so they probably act as projectiles somewhat. It wouldn't surprise me if some of Arakune's attacks are treated in a similar manner by the game. I can confirm that the spit is a projectile... unfortuanetly. Its probably still worth going for that counter though as it should get you out of the corner. (Can't swear by this, I only tested against arakune's 2D, not his corner pressure.) Ahh, I got you now. Sorry, still learning the terminology around here. Only discovered the forums about two days ago. Yeah its confusing now that blazeblue added a drive button. Does anyone have a good way of dealing with arakune's cloud that floats above your head? The other two clouds are pretty easy to deal with, but that one is horrid.
ryokoalways Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 find an opening then 2c it. Watch out for the other crap he can curse you with though.
Kumlekar Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 find an opening then 2c it. Watch out for the other crap he can curse you with though. Yeah I know, 2C is a perfect opening for arakune's j.3D.
qwerty Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 Yeah I know, 2C is a perfect opening for arakune's j.3D. this is why i like to bait teleports whenever i 2C the cloud. not only do i not get crossed up, but i also get a counter hit.
pulsr Posted July 7, 2009 Posted July 7, 2009 I'm pretty sure you shouldn't even try cutting projectiles in this match, You'll end up in a shitfest if you swing your sword at the D bug. =/ This match feels like you will randomly win... Oh, Hotaru a lot.
Silhouette Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 I generally find the best counter for Arakune is a can of Raid: I like to spray it in my opponents eyes while he's kicking my ass. This match up is seven kinds of awful. It gets a little easier if you're good with baiting teleports and can score some Drive-counters (duh), but it's still way out of your favor... Though, I can generally squeeze at least ONE win out on average against a good Arakune, and I might even win if the guy isn't that good and thinks Crimson is supposed to do all the work for him. I'm also not sure if this matchup is better for you on the ground or in the air...? It feels like it all depends on what both of you are doing. I've gotten some good results on both fronts, but, I've also gotten fucked in the mouth on the same two fronts as well.
reaVer Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 I'm pretty sure you shouldn't even try cutting projectiles in this match, You'll end up in a shitfest if you swing your sword at the D bug. =/ This match feels like you will randomly win... Oh, Hotaru a lot.The ones you get swung at you after you're cursed are too fast to be cut, but anything that floats around while you aren't cursed is C-attack meat. I generally find the best counter for Arakune is a can of Raid: I like to spray it in my opponents eyes while he's kicking my ass. This match up is seven kinds of awful. It gets a little easier if you're good with baiting teleports and can score some Drive-counters (duh), but it's still way out of your favor... Though, I can generally squeeze at least ONE win out on average against a good Arakune, and I might even win if the guy isn't that good and thinks Crimson is supposed to do all the work for him. I'm also not sure if this matchup is better for you on the ground or in the air...? It feels like it all depends on what both of you are doing. I've gotten some good results on both fronts, but, I've also gotten fucked in the mouth on the same two fronts as well. So far I've beaten nearly any Arakune I went up against, so naturally I disagree here. I do not think the matchup is that difficult at all; you just need to know how to get in on Arakune.
ryokoalways Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 My counter to what you said, reaver, is that at top level you can tell the significant advantage that arakune possesses. Beating mediocre players and saying the match up isn't bad is non-informative and not very helpful for those that want to learn the match up. I could easily also have said Jam vs Eddie is is not difficult at all because I could beat any non-top class eddie, but when it matters (high level play), Ogawa still makes me his bitch (yes i had a session against him and it's not pretty. I did get close once though. Moral victory). I've seen you around the boards for GG, so I'd assume you are an oldie. Shouldn't say things that's irresponsible like that. It is a fact that this match up is decently skewed in arakune's favor. My apologies in advance if I sounded a bit like an ass (I assure you that is not my intent), but I really dislike the argument of "I beat this easy so this isn't bad", as it provides nothing in terms of insight, and looks more like, for the lack of a better term, self-stroking. As to the other question, you really want to utilize both. Staying on either ground or air too much will get you killed. Some additional tips: You want to be judicious with your catches. And remember arakune will play zoning with only 3 tricks (thing out of the ground, spit bug and teleports) till he can curse you. He does not want to get into a melee fight with hakumen. Hakumen's 5a and 2a are very good pokes so you can win close mid range if you play it smart. Also, note which cloud is out at the time (or perhaps he is looking for a specific one). Arakune has specific things he likes to do depending on which cloud is out.
reaVer Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 My counter to what you said, reaver, is that at top level you can tell the significant advantage that arakune possesses. Beating mediocre players and saying the match up isn't bad is non-informative and not very helpful for those that want to learn the match up. I could easily also have said Jam vs Eddie is is not difficult at all because I could beat any non-top class eddie, but when it matters (high level play), Ogawa still makes me his bitch (yes i had a session against him and it's not pretty. I did get close once though. Moral victory). I've seen you around the boards for GG, so I'd assume you are an oldie. Shouldn't say things that's irresponsible like that. It is a fact that this match up is decently skewed in arakune's favor. My apologies in advance if I sounded a bit like an ass (I assure you that is not my intent), but I really dislike the argument of "I beat this easy so this isn't bad", as it provides nothing in terms of insight, and looks more like, for the lack of a better term, self-stroking. As to the other question, you really want to utilize both. Staying on either ground or air too much will get you killed. Some additional tips: You want to be judicious with your catches. And remember arakune will play zoning with only 3 tricks (thing out of the ground, spit bug and teleports) till he can curse you. He does not want to get into a melee fight with hakumen. Hakumen's 5a and 2a are very good pokes so you can win close mid range if you play it smart. Also, note which cloud is out at the time (or perhaps he is looking for a specific one). Arakune has specific things he likes to do depending on which cloud is out. The thing is, Hakumen isn't that different from Order Sol. It's not easy to get in, but once you know how to do it it's no longer a real issue. This applies to both characters. I can't tell you how to get in on your opponent however(too many variables and exceptions to the rules), you'll need to figure that out on your own. I'm just saying it doesn't really matter a whole lot what Arakune throws at you, once you know how to move through his maze of spam he's relatively easy meat.
ryokoalways Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Order sol at least had a 2s (omfg I hate that move) and decent speed. And I don't quite see similarities between the two characters, but that's just different opinion I suppose. And believe me when I say I know a thing or two about beating zone. I play Jam, everyone outranges my sorry ass (again, fuck your 2s). On the bright side I get to practice playing footsie every match basically. Against Arakune that does not stop doing things (ie drop cloud and then wait for you to screw up), it's crazy scary because you want to keep moving, but arakune can remove a lot of your space with cloud.
reaVer Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Order sol at least had a 2s (omfg I hate that move) and decent speed. And I don't quite see similarities between the two characters, but that's just different opinion I suppose. And believe me when I say I know a thing or two about beating zone. I play Jam, everyone outranges my sorry ass (again, fuck your 2s). On the bright side I get to practice playing footsie every match basically. Against Arakune that does not stop doing things (ie drop cloud and then wait for you to screw up), it's crazy scary because you want to keep moving, but arakune can remove a lot of your space with cloud. The difference is, that your Jam has a nonpunishable invincible move that can instantly kill an opponent. Next to that, OS's 2S isn't all that what it's claimed to be and in some ways it's even whiff punishable. If he drops cloud, you kill cloud, if he drops it late, you race over there and slap him in the face. And you keep yourself at IAD range to be able to do that. Also keep in mind that whenever you do a jump that would set you at perfect airdash range, you're warning Arakune that doing anything at that moment will be punished. So if you keep hopping around he's risking punishment at everything he does.
Blade Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 Haku is a mix of Robo Ky and Baiken with just a hint of ABA's trickiness. 623A will get you in close if Arakune decides to play keepaway. 5C works as your fastest anti-bug normal besides your drives. Arakune will most likely try and get you to wiff 6C and punish. Low pokes and anti airs help. His high low high combos are hard to deal with so try keeping him in poke range. A good setup if you have stars is 623AA>41236C>236A it closes in hits low and then the damage comes and you can rep 236A after into knockdown. The main thing though is NOT to IAD in this matchup since bugs will be flying overhead when cursed. Cautious forward hops and 623A and small pokes into OTG games will win this. This method caused a player to ragequit on me so it does work.
Silhouette Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 I can't tell you how to get in on your opponent however(too many variables and exceptions to the rules), you'll need to figure that out on your own. I'm just saying it doesn't really matter a whole lot what Arakune throws at you, once you know how to move through his maze of spam he's relatively easy meat. Exactly. There are A LOT of variables that cause Hakumen to not have a consistently reliable method of getting in on Arakune to screw his bugfucking to the wall, which translates into NOT in your favor, as the matchup is all on a case-by-case, match-by-match basis. Most of us can take out decidedly average Arakunes. Big deal. Don't tell us we're losing because we don't "know how to get in on Arakune" like it's completely possible every time.
Kumlekar Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 So, how do I deal with a noob arakune player who thinks he can win by spamming the overhead cloud, 4D and 2D? I know this shouldn't be a problem when I'm not in a corner, but I'm not cursed and still not sure how to get in?
ryokoalways Posted July 8, 2009 Posted July 8, 2009 So, how do I deal with a noob arakune player who thinks he can win by spamming the overhead cloud, 4D and 2D? I know this shouldn't be a problem when I'm not in a corner, but I'm not cursed and still not sure how to get in? Overhead? If he is going to full turtle just push him via walking. Someone that plays like that will be easy to pressure. That is just a coward's way of playing arakune. To reaver: OS 2s is plenty scary to Jam, and while her FB is outrageous in terms of usefulness, in practicality it's only mediocre just based on the fact that it requires tension to do. Even with Jam's obscene tension gain it's still not reliable as a first option. It's usually my 4-5th option (Don't get me wrong, that move shot Jam up at least 1 full tier, so i'm not saying that's not a good move. It's an amazing move). And man we are getting off topic. Again, my main point is a good arakune will constantly be hitting you with things to further remove your maneuver space so that it's not safe to just kill cloud or hop around. I guess we can't agree on this point yet so we will just have to wait till each of us get to play high level in a bit. Note Hakumen is my sub so I'm sure I'm not as good at him as you are, but I would like to defend myself by saying I am in no way an incompetent hakumen player and I have analyzed enough vids to know what to do for matchups (actually carrying it out is a different matter).
Kumlekar Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 Overhead? If he is going to full turtle just push him via walking. Someone that plays like that will be easy to pressure. That is just a coward's way of playing arakune. To reaver: OS 2s is plenty scary to Jam, and while her FB is outrageous in terms of usefulness, in practicality it's only mediocre just based on the fact that it requires tension to do. Even with Jam's obscene tension gain it's still not reliable as a first option. It's usually my 4-5th option (Don't get me wrong, that move shot Jam up at least 1 full tier, so i'm not saying that's not a good move. It's an amazing move). And man we are getting off topic. Again, my main point is a good arakune will constantly be hitting you with things to further remove your maneuver space so that it's not safe to just kill cloud or hop around. I guess we can't agree on this point yet so we will just have to wait till each of us get to play high level in a bit. Note Hakumen is my sub so I'm sure I'm not as good at him as you are, but I would like to defend myself by saying I am in no way an incompetent hakumen player and I have analyzed enough vids to know what to do for matchups (actually carrying it out is a different matter). The problem with just walking is that he has the "command dash" teleport on the screen edges, I played the entire match horribly, and really shouldn't have lost, but it doesn't change the problems with how hard it can be to close in. Just wondering ryko, whats your win percentage?
ryokoalways Posted July 9, 2009 Posted July 9, 2009 Sorry to disappoint you but I do not play online. I play against a set of 3-4 friends and we each cover about 2 characters, then we just go to town on each other. I'm lucky in a sense because they are all GG veterans so they pick up their characters relative quick and do things the right way. I may eventually play online, but I'm not really interested in having to play 9 scrubs then get to play one competent player. Again, I'm by no means great at hakumen, or even good. I am not particularly stellar at zoning with him, and I am still getting use to his normals (I'm not use to them because I play characters that have great block strings usually). As for what I am good at, I can IB catch very well, which is a carry over from me playing jam in GG (Jam has parry). Also, I have most of hakumen's combos down. Furthermore, I have fairly limited experience thus far because the lot of us haven't gotten the character to the point where we can roll it out in a real match. Edit: Allow me to mention that my main is Tao/Jin, and sub Hakumen. Tao is still a work in progress, while I am confident I can roll out my Jin for actual match play to start gaining match up experience. Hakumen is kind of in the middle.
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