archling Posted June 14, 2010 Posted June 14, 2010 I can't believe I'm bothering to discuss CT.. but... CT Noel vs. CT Tager is in Noel's favor no question (Noel 6-4 Tager). Noel has much better pokes than Tager and easy to confirm combos off of 5a for good damage. Noel also has a ton of answers to completely crush Tager's pokes as well, such as 3c under his 5a. And everything else 5b will likely outpoke into CH. 5a pressure is so good in CT and will keep Tager locked down quite easily. Hitting 3c on anyone at long distances will result in dash 6c whiffing. It's not only Tager. In CT, you can play Noel damn solidly and do well. I do not know why you think Noel damage without C or D attacks is 1.5k. Anyway, a quick run down of combos and damages that essentially works on (almost) everyone (works on Tager all the time NO DOUBT): Works on standing AND crouching: 5a 6a 6c bc dash 6c bc dash 6c 5d 6b 5c 6b 5c 236d (2.8k) 6a 6c bc dash 6c bc dash 6c 5d 6b 5c 6b 5c 236d (3.3k) 50% meter: 5a 5b 5c RC dash 6a 6c bc dash 6c 5d 6b 5c 6b 5c 236d (2.6k) 5b 5c RC dash 6a 6c bc dash 6c 5d 6b 5c 6b 5c 236d (3.5k) 2b 5b 5c RC dash 6a 6c bc dash 6c 5d 6b 5c 6b 5c 236d (2.2k) Standing and Tager only: 2b 5b 5c j.a j.b j.c dash 5a 6a 6c 2d 28d (1.8k) (tager only) On crouching: 5a 5b 5c 3c 22bc dash 6c 5d 6b 5c 6b 5c 236d (2.4k) 5a 6c 2c 3c 22bc dash 6c 5d 6b 5c 6b 5c 236d (2.8k) 5b 5c 3c 22bc dash 6c 5d 6b 5c 6b 5c 236d (3.3k (?)) Anti air: Run up 6c bc dash 6c bc dash 6c bc dash 6c bc into drive combo does (3.5k around) Tager specific grab combo: Grab 214a 2b 6c 22c dash 6c j.C 236c (3.4k) As you can see, decent damage overall off of quick moves and each one is easily confirmable. Only problem, of course, is that Noel has no decent damage off of low hits. Also keep in mind that all these combos give you knockdown and close to corner.. which means you get some really good corner oki game going, and that's already something you have over Tager. Oki. It is obviously harder to beat someone who doesn't take risks, and with that in mind CT Noel doesn't really have to take that many risks and can still dish out good damage. I miss CT Noel. CS Noel is such a headache. What are people having trouble with in this match up? Keep in mind, if you're genuinely losing, there is a possibility that the other Tager player is probably just better than you, and understands the game better.
DC Posted June 14, 2010 Posted June 14, 2010 I'll respond to parts directly. Noel has much better pokes than Tager and easy to confirm combos off of 5a for good damage. Surely you're not talking about hit confirming a single 5a? I'm going to assume you're talking about doing a single 5a and then hitconfirming the following hits. Noel also has a ton of answers to completely crush Tager's pokes as well, such as 3c under his 5a. Are you suggesting throwing on 3c in this matchup to predict a jab? Sorry, I can't agree with this. 5a pressure is so good in CT and will keep Tager locked down quite easily. Can't agree, if you're attempting any 5a dash 5a shenanigans I'd say prepare to get 360'd. Hitting 3c on anyone at long distances will result in dash 6c whiffing. It's not only Tager True, but Tager and Hakumen fall differently than other characters and the distance is shorter. Bang also falls differently but this is to Noel's advantage because his fall is VERY horizontal. I do not know why you think Noel damage without C or D attacks is 1.5k. I was exaggerating a bit, nobody caught that. <_< Works on standing AND crouching: 5a 6a 6c 6a 6c This must be hitconfirmed. One 5a 6a 6c is possible but hitconfirming 6a 6c (bc) is impossible (because you need to cancel the 6c with bc quickly). Note that if you 6c (bc) without hitconfirming you can get 360'd. 50% meter: 5a 5b 5c RC dash 6a 6c bc dash 6c 5d 6b 5c 6b 5c 236d (2.6k) 5b 5c RC dash 6a 6c bc dash 6c 5d 6b 5c 6b 5c 236d (3.5k) 2b 5b 5c RC dash 6a 6c bc dash 6c 5d 6b 5c 6b 5c 236d (2.2k) Pitiful damage for 50 meter. Respectable option with knockdown though. Anti air: Run up 6c bc dash 6c bc dash 6c bc dash 6c bc into drive combo does (3.5k around) His j.2c is the literal anti-anti-air for 6c. Tager specific grab combo: Grab 214a 2b 6c 22c dash 6c j.C 236c (3.4k) Actually you can 22c 6c 22c 66c j.C for more than 4k. As you can see, decent damage overall off of quick moves and each one is easily confirmable. Only problem, of course, is that Noel has no decent damage off of low hits. Again, I can't agree that things like 5a 6a 6c or 6c are confirmable. You can choose to 6c (bc) regardless of hitconfirm because many players don't know this is punishable but, it is. Also keep in mind that all these combos give you knockdown and close to corner.. which means you get some really good corner oki game going, and that's already something you have over Tager. Oki. It is obviously harder to beat someone who doesn't take risks, and with that in mind CT Noel doesn't really have to take that many risks and can still dish out good damage. I miss CT Noel. CS Noel is such a headache. Still can't agree. Oki's good but committing to attacks on his wakeup is very much asking to get 360'd or backdash 360'd. The distance that Noel must be to attack him his undeniably the closest in the game. All in all I think he has the ability to punish you for DOING attacks rather than punishing you after blocking your attacks, and with this can output way more damage than Noel can. I'd say they are both pretty equally unsafe, but Tager has the health and the damage output to make up for mashing unsafe things. Such that if we get a successful 2b CH, we get a nice 2.2k with 50 meter, whereas if he gets a 2c 2b sledge etc ch he will easily break 3.5-5k meter or not. What are people having trouble with in this match up? Keep in mind, if you're genuinely losing, there is a possibility that the other Tager player is probably just better than you, and understands the game better. I have no trouble with Tager players, this is a very easy personal matchup for me. Note that my spacebar is broken so I apologize if my post is a bit lacking indepth explanations.
archling Posted June 14, 2010 Posted June 14, 2010 I guess I'll respond to this in parts too. Actually, to be honest, I don't even know why you have something to say for each line I've said. Are you just trying to argue something so it makes you look like the better player over the internet? Surely you're not talking about hit confirming a single 5a? I'm going to assume you're talking about doing a single 5a and then hitconfirming the following hits. No, I'm not talking about hit confirming a single 5a. If you can't hit confirm 5a 6a 6c then you need to either play a different game or get better. Setting random block in training mode helps to hit confirm. 6a 6c is slightly harder to hit confirm, but definitely do-able. Are you suggesting throwing on 3c in this matchup to predict a jab? Sorry, I can't agree with this. 3c beating a jab is an example of ways to completely crush one of his fastest pokes. If the best choice a Tager has in a situation is to throw out a 5a, then, yeah, "predicting" it and throwing out a 3c is a good bet. How do you do this? It comes from having lots of experience and knowledge of the game. Damage off of 3c? Lots. Damage from Tager on you after blocking 3c? Not as much as what you can do to him. You're winning the risk/reward in this fight. Remember, Tager gets NO oki off of anything he does.. what that means is that once you get hit by 3k, 4k damage combos it goes back into neutral game where Noel will dominate him in. Once you get your 3k to 4k damage, you still get oki which means Tager is STILL guessing what you will do next. Advantage? Noel.
A.X.I.S. Posted June 14, 2010 Posted June 14, 2010 noels annoying. here's my reason its 6-4 in CT. 5k off any throw...stupid. 5k off 3C...stupid. 5A,j.A, and 2A...stupid. 3C hits me from 1/3 on the screen and guessing sledge is not someting I want to do. tagers j.2C rapes noels 6A but only on a high jump. spring raid is dumb. bloom trigger is safe even on IB without spark. those are just the basic advantages....yes she controls the neutral game and its pretty damn annoying but unlike most characters if noel makes 1 mistake she dies. and it is pretty much why its 6-4...noel will make a mistake or tager is gonna guess right and then your gonna catch a ride on the pain train. oh also noel doesn't have real blockstrings.
DC Posted June 14, 2010 Posted June 14, 2010 I guess I'll respond to this in parts too. Actually, to be honest, I don't even know why you have something to say for each line I've said. Are you just trying to argue something so it makes you look like the better player over the internet? (snip) Please stop trying to sound condescending. And if you really don't think it is in Noel's favor, please say why. And if you don't think Noel dominates the neutral game, then we have nothing more to discuss. Please don't misinterpret me, I simply thought it would be a better way to respond to your longer post.
Febreze Posted June 14, 2010 Posted June 14, 2010 I am having alot of problems with Tager I was wondering if anyone could give me some tips.
bmore303 Posted June 14, 2010 Posted June 14, 2010 http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?6279-Noel-vs.-Tager CT we actually have the advantage. CS...another story.
Tae Seong Kim Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 You can ask this in the matchup thread. MOVED Now that it is here. What kinda problems is Tager giving you?
madaxe_munkee Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 Okay, my turn for a rant on fighting Tager. This is all CT stuff mind you, since I haven't had a solid run against Tagers on CS. Especially against other good players. Fighting Tager is tough for Noel because the way you fight needs to change so drastically. There are alot of key moves that are just absolutely out of the question. I mean, don't even think about them if you're playing a good Tager. It's important for you to rethink how you start your combos in particular. Don't use 5D, 6D or 3C. To be honest, I don't even like 5A as a combo starter against Tager. It requires you to be too close. Do use it to poke him in the middle of combos and to relieve pressure on yourself and if it hits, you either combo right off it, or run while he's stunned. Sometimes, you'll be tempted to hang in there and push your pressure on, and that's really up to you, just be aware that if you give him a chance, he'll throw out a Tager buster in the middle of your combo, and it's unlikely you'll be able to do anything about it. You want to keep just out of his range, in my mind I just make sure that he can't hit me with his 5D. Your preferred combo starters will be 6A and j.A/j.B/j.C. Do stay just close enough so that when he whiffs a move you can rush in with 6A and go into a 6C throw cancel loop. Stay further when you're magnetized, since it extends his range. Actually, just run when you're magnetized. He wants you to try and play pressure games with him, because that automatically puts you in his range. You'll want to switch to hit and run instead. If you can make him come to you, your life will be alot easier. I do know though that it's difficult to just wait. If you play Noel, you probably have the "If I'm not attacking, I'm not doing my job" mentality (like I do). But forcing Tager to come to you puts you in a better situation, because Tager players tend to be impatient, and so he'll try to sledge or drive towards you. Truth is both of those moves are unsafe against a Noel that is prepared. If he jumps, 6A to victory. It's great. Air approach is recommended, but mixup is important as well. Air approach hardly ever leads into good damage, and you really do need it against Tager, what with his meaty lifebar. It's a mouthful. and lastly, learn to keep an eye on that sparkbolt gauge of his. Getting hit by that thing is a bitch, and can straight up kill you if he has the heat. Someday I'll learn to 5D through it, and then I won't have to take the magnetism. Yes, a man can dream. Good luck guys.
Heroic_Legacy Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 Sorry about CS. Maybe with a balance change it won't always be a 50/50 depending on if I use 4D or Sledge.
jags861 Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 CS noel vs. tager matchup is complete bullshit. it basically comes down to fishing for 5b counter hits--harder than it seems since all of tagers normals seemingly are faster and have more range than noels.
Mahouko Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 you know gadget finger makes my f-en day with noel, that and once you get thrown, hi magnetism is ready to screw you -.-
Ichipoo Posted July 31, 2010 Posted July 31, 2010 Uhhh, 5B like you never 5B'd before? It sure has helped me.
madaxe_munkee Posted August 2, 2010 Posted August 2, 2010 I j.A spam to victory. It's got nice reach. Just gotta watch out for his grabby air hand lol. Never 3C, never 5D. I can combo off of 5A as well, which turns out to be immensely helpful.
Cooldudenotu Posted August 2, 2010 Posted August 2, 2010 I am very new to blazblu (a few days) but am very familiar with fighting games, and I can't figure out the noel vs tager match up. It seems like its 9/1 in favor of tager... I can't believe I once complained about zangeif in SF, he has nothing on tager -_-
xntrikcat Posted August 2, 2010 Posted August 2, 2010 Abuse the shit out of the new optic barrel. There is no reason to rush a tager. If you overcommit, you're just asking to be reversal grabbed into gadget finger resets or nasty tech traps. Camp out Tager with optic barrel and vary your jump-ins. Jumping is still the safest way of approaching Tager, which is stupid but is true. Watch out for spark volts and sledge rc 2b attempts. Anticipate jump cancels after you block his 6a. Don't try to mindlessly anti air him with 6a. If you get too predictable you'll eat his j.2c CH. Block first, make him guess. I believe you can IB the j.2c and punish with 5a 6a etc. 5D isn't "bad" for this matchup, but it's definitely not to be spammed. Try to 5D his 5D, 5C, or sledge. You'll need to be a psychic though, but so does he with Atomic Collider. I don't think this matchup is as bad as everyone makes it sound, it's probably 6-4 in tager's favor at worst.
Heroic_Legacy Posted August 5, 2010 Posted August 5, 2010 So the matchup is pretending you can zone him out? The only good thing in this matchup is that Noel can actually j.D through all of Tager's tech traps.
FunkyP Posted August 5, 2010 Posted August 5, 2010 Abuse the shit out of the new optic barrel. There is no reason to rush a tager. If you overcommit, you're just asking to be reversal grabbed into gadget finger resets or nasty tech traps. Camp out Tager with optic barrel and vary your jump-ins. Jumping is still the safest way of approaching Tager, which is stupid but is true. This strategy is just asking to get killed, he has so many ways around this I'll be surprised if Noel last 30 seconds. Definitely stay on the ground as he as several good ground to air options into magnetism pressure if you try to approach. 5B is your friend because it stuffs a lot of his normals and pokes at safer range, and you can 5b CH into 3c combo. Also not a projectile he can sledge or 6A through. Also try your best to not get magnetized, if so try your best to run away and not get caught in a pressure string or god forbid knocked down. 5a pressure him if you have to just to get magnetism off. 2B also very useful for keeping him honest, with 2c and 3c being projectiles, Tager is not afraid to block high all the time. 2B keeps him in check.
Heroic_Legacy Posted August 5, 2010 Posted August 5, 2010 5B is your friend because it stuffs a lot of his normals and pokes at safer range, and you can 5b CH into 3c combo. Also not a projectile he can sledge or 6A through. 4D trades counterhit with it. We get our combo. You don't get yours.
FunkyP Posted August 5, 2010 Posted August 5, 2010 4D however cleanly loses to 5D giving Noel a beefy combo, Tager can't use 4D as much as he likes to on other characters.
Heroic_Legacy Posted August 5, 2010 Posted August 5, 2010 5D cleanly loses to Sledge. (Or 360A) See where this is going?
Danny Schme Posted August 5, 2010 Posted August 5, 2010 5D can be timed to beat the longer sledge if the spacing is right. But a Tager won't be throwing that out for the fun of it. 4D >> Noel. If you guess it and 5D, sure. But if you're fishing for a counter hit 5B, you will eat 4D. And at that point you may as well put the stick down unless you can guess right out of Gadget Finger (pending they don't have 50 meter to fuck with you/troll you more). And I would NOT recommend doing optic barrels on Tager as a means of actually keeping him out. This and Litchi are shits-hows for Noel. Give me Bang and Ragna to fight against before you give me Litchi or Tager.
madaxe_munkee Posted August 10, 2010 Posted August 10, 2010 5D will only work against sledge if you know it's coming. You can't hope to get anywhere if you throw it out without working for a counter hit, since you'll just get sledged properly or if you're unlucky Tager Buster-ed. Jumping is a safe option in that he can't Tager Buster you while you're in the air. And often, you can j.A him before he can get atomic collider out. 5A spam will protect while you're close, but get out quick or you might eat a Tager Buster as soon as he recovers. It certainly doesn't hurt to spam Optic Barrel at long range (i.e. as long as he's not close enough to sledge through it an hit you) but it's unlikely to give you a significant advantage unless you're hunting for a time-out. Just never do it while he has a full spark gauge, or if you're magnetized, because then his ability to draw you into his attacks becomes just too good. 5B is still good though. And I actually like j.A, it has good range and a knack for creating openings.
dragontamer Posted August 10, 2010 Posted August 10, 2010 5D will only work against sledge if you know it's coming. You can't hope to get anywhere if you throw it out without working for a counter hit, since you'll just get sledged properly or if you're unlucky Tager Buster-ed. Jumping is a safe option in that he can't Tager Buster you while you're in the air. And often, you can j.A him before he can get atomic collider out. 5A spam will protect while you're close, but get out quick or you might eat a Tager Buster as soon as he recovers. It certainly doesn't hurt to spam Optic Barrel at long range (i.e. as long as he's not close enough to sledge through it an hit you) but it's unlikely to give you a significant advantage unless you're hunting for a time-out. Just never do it while he has a full spark gauge, or if you're magnetized, because then his ability to draw you into his attacks becomes just too good. 5B is still good though. And I actually like j.A, it has good range and a knack for creating openings. Are you still playing CT? j.A was awesome back then... However, Tager has anti-airs now. 623C and 2C have some upper body invincibility now. And even if Tager's 2C trades with your j.A spam, Tager gets a fatal counter into Gadget finger Oki. Noel's 5B was soooo nurfed in this matchup, it isn't funny :-( And as bad as CT optic barrel was.... its a ton better vs Tager, because CT Optic Barrel gave +19 frames on block and comboed into 6C loop on counter-hit. You don't even get useful Oki if Continuum Shift 236C Optic Barrel counter-hits Tager. I can't think of a good reason to use it vs Tager.... ever really. Long range Optic Barrel is now -5 frames on block, and doesn't seem to have any combos without a rapid. And I swear that Optic Barrel is smaller now... So even if you do land a hit, I don't see any use for it. Zones the hell out of Tager though Too bad it doesn't go anywhere useful. Noel's Anti-Airs were nurfed, but at least 4D seems solid vs Tager's jump ins (in my limited experience). Noel's air-to-air was severely nurfed, I don't feel confident in attacking Tager in the air anymore. I guess its a better idea to spam D now, but that never works vs a character with godly grabs and projectile invincible attacks. Oh well, 5A spam and j.A spam were a bit cheap in the last game, so I'm fine with eating an unfavorable matchup this time around.
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