byronyuq Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 RC isn't a bad idea but its more in favour of the otehr person since you will lose 4 stars which stars= damage as far as hakumen is concern. Other area is bursting when he has comitted to a special attack such as 41236 C as an example. I'm not quite sure and why your burst are predictable vs hakumen? In most matches against hakumen you rarely need to barrier block. To be honest he can't keep you in block long enough to do anything meanful.. with a full burst barrier... I don't hakumen will have it easy to predict. i dont think losing the 4 stars will mean much to hakumen since he'll deal heavy damage right after anyways... and he doesn't predict the bursts, he sees it and reacts to it fast enough
dragontamer Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 If he mashes 2D, your 214A will whiff entirely. However, 2D does have a damn lengthy recovery time, so maybe you can still hit him out. Not much reason to 214A unless you're expecting a 6D though. Yeah, 2D makes 214A whiff. 214A is anti 6D for sure however. I guess (Hakumen) 2D mashers can just eat a (Noel) 6B or 2D.
zaeris Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 i dont think losing the 4 stars will mean much to hakumen since he'll deal heavy damage right after anyways... and he doesn't predict the bursts, he sees it and reacts to it fast enough Even on Block a safe burst won't mean hakumen can punish you with standing 5c assuming you burst on the ground,,,, why would anyone burst in the air will puzzle anyone.. he needs stars unless its an air hit which is very unlikely... Predicting with hakumen doesn't mean much unless he has stars to pull off some decent combo.. Hakumen can only do damage with stars...... unless your thinking of something I haven't seen before?
ryokoalways Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 Noel's command throw and 2D makes for a pretty good mixup. When the fight is going it's pretty hard to tell them apart. It's pretty good against most of the cast, provided you have them in a defensive position. And hakumen doesn't need stars to do damage in the corner. 2-3 is more than plenty to easily break 4k, usually in the 4.5k range.
zaeris Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 Noel's command throw and 2D makes for a pretty good mixup. When the fight is going it's pretty hard to tell them apart. It's pretty good against most of the cast, provided you have them in a defensive position. And hakumen doesn't need stars to do damage in the corner. 2-3 is more than plenty to easily break 4k, usually in the 4.5k range. even in corner it requires an air hit which will make them bounce into 2c into j2c... on ground hit it is always going to be impossible to go into air loops without using special to force them to bounce into position.. beside that 3c CH , 6B CH i can't think of much sitution maybe 5d and 2D counter and possibly 6D. Then again burst status isn't CH on recovery... I can only assume at best people are adding in the 33% addition damage from bursting into their equation. 4K is quite an exageration tensionless.. well its more closer to 3.6k... the question here is before anyone goes off topic. Would you RC on burst and punish with what ever stars you have left... if hakumen has 8 stars during burst Im left wondering what has he been saving it for.. if the condition allowed for the burst bait to be a match ender, it would be feasible and at least 2 stars left after RC in my disposal to combo.
ryokoalways Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 Renka and any frametrap into enma are both launchers and only cost 2 magatamas. dash tsubaki grants knockdown into 2c launch as well. In the corner hakumen doesn't need more than 2-3 to dish out 4.5k, it's not an exaggeration. As for RC to beat burst, it depends on the situation. There are instances where even if you block it (RC or not) where hakumen can't punish because the only move that will reach the target is 5C/6C, and they can recover before hand. In which case, you'd want to catch. I personally use RC catch more because once you burst you are screwed. A simple 2D > 5C > gurren > 6C does 4.2k I believe, so in most situations where you'd burst anyways you would be dead. And if you have just 4.5 magatamas you would be good to go because 2D and 5C will provide the other half needed for gurren. hakumen has a different trick for between burst for each situation. This is just the one that's the default on the ground. In the air things would also be different.
aaronyu2 Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 even in corner it requires an air hit which will make them bounce into 2c into j2c... on ground hit it is always going to be impossible to go into air loops without using special to force them to bounce into position.. beside that 3c CH , 6B CH i can't think of much sitution maybe 5d and 2D counter and possibly 6D. Then again burst status isn't CH on recovery... I can only assume at best people are adding in the 33% addition damage from bursting into their equation. 4K is quite an exageration tensionless.. well its more closer to 3.6k... the question here is before anyone goes off topic. Would you RC on burst and punish with what ever stars you have left... if hakumen has 8 stars during burst Im left wondering what has he been saving it for.. if the condition allowed for the burst bait to be a match ender, it would be feasible and at least 2 stars left after RC in my disposal to combo. No need for stars after RC, in most cases countering burst will lead to match winner, if the person doesn't die from the counter it's pretty much an early burst and in hakumen's favor anyways. Noel's 214a is useless against good hakumen.
dragontamer Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 Well, I never claimed it was good. I claimed that 214A beats 6D mashers. I'm sure better Hakumen realize that Noel has a multitude of options after a blocked 5B, and do more than just mash 6D / 2D in the 5B -> 5C link.
byronyuq Posted November 10, 2009 Posted November 10, 2009 Even on Block a safe burst won't mean hakumen can punish you with standing 5c assuming you burst on the ground,,,, why would anyone burst in the air will puzzle anyone.. he needs stars unless its an air hit which is very unlikely... Predicting with hakumen doesn't mean much unless he has stars to pull off some decent combo.. Hakumen can only do damage with stars...... unless your thinking of something I haven't seen before? i think aaronyu2 is just too good and kills too fast after i burst =/ (i burst too early, but im trying to burst at the end, but its a bad habit...)
Savageshell Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 Hey Noel players...after facing a bunch of Noels in player matchs and getting hit with more D's than a guy at a strip club I really would like the chance to get some experience with actually good Noel players...I still have a lot to learn with Hakumen but I shouldnt be too free...I hope:psyduck:
excelence Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 Go this way -> http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6559
byronyuq Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 Hey Noel players...after facing a bunch of Noels in player matchs and getting hit with more D's than a guy at a strip club I really would like the chance to get some experience with actually good Noel players...I still have a lot to learn with Hakumen but I shouldnt be too free...I hope:psyduck: were you fighting D spammers? o.o
Savageshell Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 Thanks for the link I will be sending some friend requests...and were they D Spammers? Well it def felt like it but about 90% of the Noels I have played have been like that so i wouldnt be able to tell the difference between skilled or un-skilled anymore
byronyuq Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 Thanks for the link I will be sending some friend requests...and were they D Spammers? Well it def felt like it but about 90% of the Noels I have played have been like that so i wouldnt be able to tell the difference between skilled or un-skilled anymore d spammers are actually easy after you get used to the moves. theyre slow to me so i can react to it, but i just dont fight noels enough so i dont know why move theyre going to do.
zaeris Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 Thanks for the link I will be sending some friend requests...and were they D Spammers? Well it def felt like it but about 90% of the Noels I have played have been like that so i wouldnt be able to tell the difference between skilled or un-skilled anymore It should be in the hakumen vs Noel section in the Hakumen sub forum.... learn to Counter throw in between Noel that spams D its large for hakumen to do a throw combo. Since throws are 7 frame its the equvilant to your 7 frame stand A but does more damage. Or you can spam D back....
Konton Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 Bad advice. Spamming throw is going to get you frame trapped and spamming counter doesn't get rid of her mix-up.
zaeris Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 Bad advice. Spamming throw is going to get you frame trapped and spamming counter doesn't get rid of her mix-up. Its a general advice and who said anything about spamming throws? know noel mix up and punish accordingly 6A drive should be throwable. EDIT: I be more fine with noel that spams 2d or do something ghetto like 6c drive.. but spammers are A mash friendly and drive A mash friendly/
byronyuq Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 Its a general advice and who said anything about spamming throws? know noel mix up and punish accordingly 6A drive should be throwable. EDIT: I be more fine with noel that spams 2d or do something ghetto like 6c drive.. but spammers are A mash friendly and drive A mash friendly/ you can just do D with hakumen when noel spams D... thats what aaronyu2 does when i use D, but i dont even spam it T.T
aaronyu2 Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 hakumen 5A will stop noel mid drives, as long as you predict that she won't do spring raid
Konton Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 Its a general advice and who said anything about spamming throws? know noel mix up and punish accordingly 6A drive should be throwable. EDIT: I be more fine with noel that spams 2d or do something ghetto like 6c drive.. but spammers are A mash friendly and drive A mash friendly/ Ghetto? Noel's 6c frame traps on block and leads to big damage on hit. You can't follow general advice to combat her drive as she has tons of options if she has you blocking, especially when spaced correctly. Prepare to be guard crushed by 5d -> 5b -> 5c -> 5b -> 5c -> 236d if you barrier block, prepare to eat an assault through if you are grabbing, prepare to be spring raided if you are jabbing, overheaded or low'd by mix-ups if countering, canceled into 214a, etc. etc. etc.
dragontamer Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 Indeed Konton. Although, 5D -> 5B -> 5C has more range than grabs, so you'll just counter-hit him for massive damage. I'm pretty sure the sequence outranges Hakumen's 5A and grabs, but it doesn't out-range 5D / 6D, so no, 5A doesn't stop that either. Chain Revolver has a good bit of strategy to it, but it is unfortunately weaker than a normal Noel due to the difficulty of hitconfirming. But when you have +15 frame advantage on block on various attacks (6C is +12 frames, 5A and 5B are +15 frames), and 14 options off of any chain revolver hit (13 total chain revolver attacks, but you can't reuse the same one twice in a row, and 214A and 236A/B/C)... it actually has far more depth than what most people let on. No "simple" strategy will beat good chain revolver spam. The Hakumen 5A spam for example will probably lose to something as simple as (Drive) 5B -> 236D. Both outrange 5A (hell, 236D outranges burst). I'm pretty certain that the 5D 5B 5C string also beats jab spam, because the range on that string is so friggen huge.
zaeris Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 Ghetto? Noel's 6c frame traps on block and leads to big damage on hit. You can't follow general advice to combat her drive as she has tons of options if she has you blocking, especially when spaced correctly. Prepare to be guard crushed by 5d -> 5b -> 5c -> 5b -> 5c -> 236d if you barrier block, prepare to eat an assault through if you are grabbing, prepare to be spring raided if you are jabbing, overheaded or low'd by mix-ups if countering, canceled into 214a, etc. etc. etc. I think you misunderstand what a spammer scrub noel means... they don't play the game coherently.... I wasn't talking about a good noel player who knows how to mix up their Drive spam. I'm talking about bad ones, the one you see online.. there a distinct difference with good players and bad players where bad one are patterned and easy to read. the good one you just rely on reaction. @Dragontamer: Simple strategy exist for simple people, people who don't learn Distinguishing your opponent is more fundamental than understanding a match up. You really need to explain me where your getting your frame advantage numbers from? 6C drive is negative going into that is. Its start up is 24 frames, frame advantage on normal cancel is Block stun (lvl) - 24frames start up. lvl 3 equal 16 frames - 24 = -8 on block you can be poked out with a 8 or lower frame poke, the only thing really stopping people is the ambiguity of the drive combination and distance on some character. Noel only safest drive move is really 5b with 17 frame, frame trap of 1-2 frames for gaps. on block 6c drive is 13 - start up of following drive with. With 5b at 17 frames leaving you at -3, or you could always use spring raid.
Savageshell Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 Thanks for the advice...dont want to disturb your thread so Ill check out my match-up thread for Haku-men
dragontamer Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 I think you misunderstand what a spammer scrub noel means... they don't play the game coherently.... I wasn't talking about a good noel player who knows how to mix up their Drive spam. I'm talking about bad ones, the one you see online.. there a distinct difference with good players and bad players where bad one are patterned and easy to read. the good one you just rely on reaction. @Dragontamer: Simple strategy exist for simple people, people who don't learn Distinguishing your opponent is more fundamental than understanding a match up. You really need to explain me where your getting your frame advantage numbers from? 6C drive is negative going into that is. Its start up is 24 frames, frame advantage on normal cancel is Block stun (lvl) - 24frames start up. lvl 3 equal 16 frames - 24 = -8 on block No no no. 6C is unsafe to throw out, because it is a slow startup. (BTW: most chain revolver attacks have a level 4 blockstun, making the hole only 6 frames). However, 6C sets up frame traps. I tested this myself. (Drive) 6C -> 5B is a 5 frame hole, (Drive) 6C is +12 if you continue the chain revolver. IB the 6C, and (Drive) 6C turns into +7, which means 28D is a 1-frame hole. (Drive) 6C to 5B is 5 frames. on block 6c drive is 13 - start up of following drive with. With 5b at 17 frames leaving you at -3, or you could always use spring raid. Actually, 5 frame hole between 6C and 5B. 6C offers +12 on block, not +13. The other 1 frame comes from the fact that its 17 frames of startup: the actual attack comes out on frame 18. Hmm, why did we start talking about 6C? Its bad vs Hakumen >_<. But as far as frame traps are concerned, the 5 frame hole after 6C (or the 1-frame hole from an IBed 6C) is very good. No answers from Nu / Carl / Arakune.
DarkChildOfLight Posted November 12, 2009 Posted November 12, 2009 I lost to a Noel in Player match yesterday who only used D. Does this make me a scrub? I hope not as its the first time its been used so much on me and as usually when I tried to counter I got countered and when I tried to block I got hit by another angle. So 5a beats drives you say? Can I spar with you Dragontamer soon? I'd appreciate if you could show me a few basic things to look out for in Noel players and teach me what Haku can do to counter it. Especially the D spammers. I was able to beat this Noel a few times but only when she didn't get close enough to spam D.
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