[CT] Iron Tager vs. Carl

[ShinsoBEAM]

are you kidding it annoyed the hell out of me, that move is much longer than it seems.

if i sledge it i have to hit you too, if i dont then you get to 5c ch me and show me kid power, you made it real hard for me to go for my usual aggressive smash your face in with magnetism, again i never got my ass kicked so hard lol, now i know how to keep myself alive.

simplest yet hardest thing, dont fuck up! if you end up bursting then its best to do mike z's advice and finish it quick, or you die from the clap.

Wait you play aggressive with tager, O_o, is that how we are supposed to play, I always lose the first round against tagers that do that because I expect them to play similar to me.

[A.X.I.S.]

Wait you play aggressive with tager, O_o, is that how we are supposed to play, I always lose the first round against tagers that do that because I expect them to play similar to me.

well i assume tager play defensively and turtle but i deny myself that fate as i believe offense is the best defense so if there are any vids of me as tager, you notice that when i begin pressure i stay on you until you die.

sadly its no video's of me as tager.

that said if we ever do meet then you'll truly know what izzy meant by "weird things".

i'd like to note that when i was fighting izzy, i had to experiment alot because i dont have any info on how to beat carl.

thankfully due to those rape experiences and this guide i now know what i need to do, and how to react.

[ShinsoBEAM]

Also hey SolBadass, just IB the 43216D for like 25% meter, seriously man you have no idea how many carls start out the match with 2 of those then forget I already have enough meter for 720, or magentic tech wheel, or hell, a glorious RC combo for mother russia.

[4Corners]

^and this is why I use 5c+6d to fight Tager. Fueco just doesn't feel right to me. D: Then again, maybe that's why I lose to other characters.

[IronTager]

*Sigh* My friend started maining that son of a shoto... He's pretty good with him, for some reason, he has something I wish I could have. The potential to be good with just about anyone in any game. Anyhow, the most annoying thing is that while he's hiding behind Nirvana, he's practically forcing you to fight Nirvana. Sledge and he'll punish you, not to mention that it's annoying to magnetize Carl. He's so damned short that when I do one of my combos, he can escape the last hit of magnetize, so I have to kind of improvise. I think one of the most annoying things about facing Carl beside the fact that Nirvana is in your way, is that it's harder to work with your magnetism on him since he's so damned small. Another thing is this... Example: Let's say Carl tries to rush you down from the air *Sigh* (I hate that '-_-) and you press 2C... He gets hit so high into the air and is so small that he flies so high and you have to be more precise with your atomic collidor in order to punish him. I have a hard time trying to hurt Carl even when Nirvana's out for the count. He usually runs away and if I slip up in any way, he's much faster and can punish pretty well... If I don't do anything, Nirvana's gonna come back and try to kick my ass... The most annoying thing is his super, long range, and you pretty much are forced to block both Nirvana and Carl... Anyhow, he almost forces it to be a match between you and the puppet. The only real advantage you have against Carl is that he has the lowest health in the game and is kind of hard to work with alone. But then again, he is faster than Tager and has quite a few of his moves have good range... It's annoying to deal with that little kid... The thing is, it takes around 2 combos to combo him if he doesn't burst, however, most of the characters take around 3... It's kind of hard to explain, I think the grab is the biggest factor in change rather than combos... When you use Tager's 720 on Carl, the match is pretty much almost won (or won). If you use his 360, it destroy his health... If you use a combo, it actually isn't that efficient and you probably won't even magnetize him cause of his shortness... I'm not saying rely on grabs, I'm saying that grabs are the biggest difference between winning a match with Carl and winning a chance against anyone else. OH! Also, I think this may be a fluke, but I believe that Carl's command grab counts as a "projectile", so you can sledge through that.

[ShinsoBEAM]

Carl's command grab is total trash and no carl player I know uses it except to be a jerk and taunt with it. Also learn how to combo carl... like go in practice mode and try stuff, you still have good combos that end in magnet you just gotta cut them a bit shorter, basically it means your combos act like he is a normal health character .

[4Corners]

Yeah. You CAN magnetize Carl in combos, you just have to learn them. Don't fight the robot. Don't approach. Don't get sandwiched. DON'T mess up. Learn to IB things like 6b and 5c>360/backdash to avoid puppet. All of Nirvana's moves are projectile property, but if Carl's in 5c range, don't sledge, or you just lost the match.

[A.X.I.S.]

thanks for the matches izzy, i can hang with most carls now, and those who can't do throw loop on me are the easiest ones.

[4Corners]

npnp, anytime

[Zarithan]

After playing with couple of lvl 40-50+ Carl players here are some of the things I've learned : Only way 2 fight Nirvana if u want (but its not recommended) is 2 use 6C , it destroys Nirvanas HP (disabling Carls inf loop) + with a bigger range than sledge it can easy give u the much needed distance that prevents u from getting into the sandwich. Keep urself away from Nirvana all the time and Carl will b forced 2 make a move trying to lure u into the sandwich. Then he will attack from air as a crossup or by using Vivace while getting covered by Nirvanas attacks. U can punish Carl's Vivace with 360A (or even B) mostly cuz of Tager size which prevents him from gaining much needed distance 2 recover himself after Vivace. (Even regular Throw won't b cancelable cuz it is considered as a Counter Throw) Or if he gain distance just use 360A right after Vivace cuz Carls moves will be either 3C or 6B that will let him keep a presure on u until Nirvana is close by.

[IronTager]

Say, you know Rhapsody of Memories? What's the best option for getting out of that? It's quite annoying to try to get past that move, if you sledge, it wouldn't be too much of a smart idea, however, if sit there like a chump, you'll have to start blocking both Nirvana and Carl, which can be quite confusing and annoying. Also, you know that Gear Super? I know that you can sledge in order to not get killed by it, however, let's say I'm behind the Gear and Carl's on the other side. Is there any way to punish him? The thing is, Tager is too big and can't air dash, so Super Jumping over that thing seems like a pretty bad idea. I was thinking if Carl was magnetized, you could probably pull him in with a 720 from the other side, but... I'm not sure about it. By the way, if Carl is about to do his Neutral B (That flag thing), how would I punish that? Cause normally, that flag is how the Carl's I face start up their combos if they have to fight alone (So they don't get a negative penalty). What about when he uses his Stiletto move (The move where he can repeatedly bounce off you in the air, not to mention it's much easier to do off of Tager cause of his big hit box.) How can I punish that annoying move? If he air dashes at me, what should if he's ready to attack me?

[A.X.I.S.]

Say, you know Rhapsody of Memories? What's the best option for getting out of that? It's quite annoying to try to get past that move, if you sledge, it wouldn't be too much of a smart idea, however, if sit there like a chump, you'll have to start blocking both Nirvana and Carl, which can be quite confusing and annoying.

Also, you know that Gear Super? I know that you can sledge in order to not get killed by it, however, let's say I'm behind the Gear and Carl's on the other side. Is there any way to punish him? The thing is, Tager is too big and can't air dash, so Super Jumping over that thing seems like a pretty bad idea. I was thinking if Carl was magnetized, you could probably pull him in with a 720 from the other side, but... I'm not sure about it.

By the way, if Carl is about to do his Neutral B (That flag thing), how would I punish that? Cause normally, that flag is how the Carl's I face start up their combos if they have to fight alone (So they don't get a negative penalty).

What about when he uses his Stiletto move (The move where he can repeatedly bounce off you in the air, not to mention it's much easier to do off of Tager cause of his big hit box.) How can I punish that annoying move?

If he air dashes at me, what should if he's ready to attack me?

1. high jump over it if your at medium distance, if carl tries to jump at you then j.anything will beat him.

you can also get back or IB it for heat.

2. again you can high jump over him using J.C to boost you forward..or wait until the move is about to end and sledge him for free CH.

3. 5A beats alot of shit you know, use it, spam it, kill with it. you can 360A or back dash 360 him too..

4. just block and IB it, good carls use it to support the doll or combo with it, never to run up and do it...better options tsk tsk.

[ShinsoBEAM]

heh with raphosody of memories most carls thought process's go like this heh you can't hit me cause my doll keeps attacking during even if you hit him, however 360A/720 grab can wreck some shit, most carls just try to left-right mixup and some do alot do 236A/B to mixup nirvana's hits as you should know thats a free 720, you can poke out of nirvana's rapsody, just normally it doesn't matter cause she keeps going even if you hit her or carl . However a good carl will just allycan the fuck out of you during nirvana's rapsody making jumpouts tricky and stopping us from pulling that bullshit, you can sledge though rapsody of memories but carl knows this, and they will punish you for it most of the time.

[4Corners]

EDIT: 6c thing was directed at an earlier post. 5a is a better move as long as you use it intelligently.

I'll have to check on 6c, but I'm pretty sure that's a terrible idea. All Carl has to do is turn her on and right back off, you do 6c, and he uses 5c to get a nice CH combo that leads into loop>death.

Also, with my trick, Carl doesn't even need half Nirvana meter to loop Tager to death, so seriously, don't bother fighting Nirvana.

Carl approaching from the air is seldom going to happen unless you secure a life lead/they get impatient/cocky.

Say, you know Rhapsody of Memories? What's the best option for getting out of that? It's quite annoying to try to get past that move, if you sledge, it wouldn't be too much of a smart idea, however, if sit there like a chump, you'll have to start blocking both Nirvana and Carl, which can be quite confusing and annoying.

I say you should IB, superjump, and take the hit from it. After 2-3 hits from Rhapsody, you'll be free to tech out and hit Nirvana once or twice. Just don't get too close, because she hits slightly behind her sometimes. Watch out for Carl flying in with an airgrab when you do that, and you should be good to go.

Though he still might fly in and try to BS pressure until Nirvana's done, and then lead into a combo. Gotta stay awake.

Also, you know that Gear Super? I know that you can sledge in order to not get killed by it, however, let's say I'm behind the Gear and Carl's on the other side. Is there any way to punish him? The thing is, Tager is too big and can't air dash, so Super Jumping over that thing seems like a pretty bad idea. I was thinking if Carl was magnetized, you could probably pull him in with a 720 from the other side, but... I'm not sure about it.

If you're saying:

You - Gear - Carl

I dunno what all you can do to punish him. Magnetism ~might~ work, but I dunno if he gets pulled during it. My suggestion is to hit up training mode and try a bunch of stupid stuff. Just keep an eye out for Nirvana, since he can still command her while the super is going on.

By the way, if Carl is about to do his Neutral B (That flag thing), how would I punish that? Cause normally, that flag is how the Carl's I face start up their combos if they have to fight alone (So they don't get a negative penalty).

Well, you won't punish his 5b, per se. It's a jcable, chainable, linkable normal. Buuuuuut

If Carl is going solo, you can watch out for two main things (assuming he doesn't have meter):

6b (the low swipe thingy) - IB this and you can punish him with a jab/something fast. I dunno what all tager can do. Watch out, though, because it's special cancellable, so he can do the ankle snare, super, whatever. If it hits, it's also JCable, and leads to a 50-50 that you don't want to deal with.

jcing>j.2c shenanigans - If you see him take to the air, you can choose to either block (if he's alone, he'll prolly go into another low>50/50 reset), or backdash>buster or whatever. While j2c can be made lagless via allecan, he has to actually connect with your hitbox to do it. If you backdash and he didn't anticipate it, then he's got 30 frames of landing lag that you can punish him for. Spark volt combos are go, if you have it.

As always, be really careful when he has super meter. He won't do damage, but any Carl worth their salt will combo into gear super to burn a LOT of time in order to make sure Nirvana comes back. If Nirvana comes back, chances are pretty high that you're dead if you aren't comboing him. Stay away from corners, because even without Nirvana, Carl has some stupid options vs Tager, esp when he has meter. j.2c allecan spam>50/50s until he has heat, and then force a block xx gear to make you block until Nirvana's back.

Oh, and with gear super in the corner, carl has a +18 frame advantage, so he can get back in while you're still blocking it and do a quick overhead>low or low>overhead. Poor Tager.

What about when he uses his Stiletto move (The move where he can repeatedly bounce off you in the air, not to mention it's much easier to do off of Tager cause of his big hit box.) How can I punish that annoying move?

If he air dashes at me, what should if he's ready to attack me?

Well the thing with j.2c is that he can cancel it into allegretto to either give him 0 landing lag, or, if he's high enough, he can have allegretto actually come out (though there's really not much point to this outside of the corner). If he doesn't cancel it, you can do something like... 2c, I think? buuuuut he can also do

j.2c, j.b, j.c

And land with very little lag/at frame advantage, if he does it low enough.

Or he can jump cancel it. Or super cancel it. Or a lot of things.

I'd recommend learning to IB the j2c and backdash it. Then, when you're fighting bad Carls that don't allecan, you can IB the j.2c and get a free combo. When you're fighting good Carls, you're gonna have to guess on whether to IB>punish, backdash>punish, or just IB>keep blocking.

If he airdashes at you without Nirvana, you can rely on backdash a little more. If you see that robot show up once, get ready to block for a while, and watch out for resets once the pressure starts seriously taking Nirvana meter to do. Every time she does an attack without shutting off, it takes a little more health, until the punch takes 1/4 of her health and she dies. Most Carls will go for resets before this. You just have to know what to look out for, and play REALLY solid defense. Green grabs, unblockables (not very common without 100% meter), xups, really fast high/lows, gear super nirvana resets... you gotta be on point with your blocking, or else this match will never go your way vs good Carls.

Also, if a Carl does Gear Super while you're sandwiched, do NOT jump. I've been using this trap for a while now, and it gets good players and scrubs alike. Once I've turned her on and off again, you can bet I'll be spamming 8d to try and secure a loop. The only time I'd suggest jumping is at the end of the gear. Your goal is to get hit by the clap, get knocked into the last 2-3 hits of the gear, and fly away because the Carl really wasn't expecting it. Even then, this is a REALLY risky manuever.

Tager vs Carl is kinda like Carl vs Rachel. You want to keep blocking/playing conservatively until they get irritated and go in for their mix-ups. If your blocking isn't up to par, you will probably lose. If it is, though, you might be able to survive long enough for him to turn Nirvana off for a second in order to reset health scaling. As soon as you see that, keep an eye out for cape>quick solo Carl mixup, and try to backdash it and start the match rolling in your favour. Watch out for super cancels/rcs, or for him to do cape>jc>karacan airdash>pressure/loop if he senses the backdash, though, because if you've got Carl to the point where he had to turn off Nirvana during pressure, you can bet he'll be busting out his dirtiest tricks.

Hope that helps.

[Hydrogyn]

How do you deal with the Carls that get a small health lead then just stick the doll somewhere between you and then and stall all match. I cannot seem to deal with them at all. If I get between the two it is basically over...

[4Corners]

Just saw you on ranked, lololol. IB> Backdash or sledge are how you can try to escape, but you have to be really careful. Also, block low more, and don't tech the airgrab.

[Hydrogyn]

Yeah you weren't the one I was having this problem with, it was a different guy I mean litterally he get just a hit off on me the would backpeddle till I came between them and needless to it doesn't end well. If I can get ahold of carl I ussually make it hurt but this match is annoying.

[4Corners]

Yeah, I know. I read the post right before we played. It was really weird timing.

[Beatrush]

Say, you know Rhapsody of Memories? What's the best option for getting out of that

I just wanted to note that sledge hammer can absorb the first hits of Rhapsody of Memories. Not really an escape, more of an FYI.

[-Papercuts]

Oh, so there's the Carl that kept destroying me tonight. It seems really hard to not get sandwiched between the two considering the match starts out with Carl getting right behind Nirvana, then it's like Honda vs. Honda where it's just a stare off. The biggest difference here is it's waiting for Tager to do something and commence getting assraped.

[4Corners]

Astaroth dced before we fought. I was glad you kept coming back. You could try chipping me with spark volt, and just waiting out 90 more seconds. lololol Is fun, we can play more whenever you want, and I can give you pointers. Don't tech the throw loop though, seriously! Maybe in an online tournament, where lag can ruin the reset, buuuut not IRL. Lotsa fun, though. Update, though! There's one way to beat a Carl with ease! Online only: Have a bad connection. Hit with that giant punch repeatedly as Carl messes up repeatedly. It works, I've seen it!

[-Papercuts]

Haha, even assuming he sat there and took it I'd imagine most people would atleast be more cautious and use Nirvana to eat the sparkbolt(which makes me cry when it happens). Why not tech the grab, though? It seems like you're screwed either way. But yeah, I could use a lot more Carl practice. I fight one of the top ranked Carl people quite a bit and he doesn't do the loop...or maybe he just doesn't do it on me() and it's hard enough for Tager to just fight Carl by himself.

[A.X.I.S.]

Haha, even assuming he sat there and took it I'd imagine most people would atleast be more cautious and use Nirvana to eat the sparkbolt(which makes me cry when it happens).

Why not tech the grab, though? It seems like you're screwed either way.

But yeah, I could use a lot more Carl practice. I fight one of the top ranked Carl people quite a bit and he doesn't do the loop...or maybe he just doesn't do it on me() and it's hard enough for Tager to just fight Carl by himself.

oh god if you tech the grab then damage resets and your back in the loop...if you burst during loop then the clap hits you, carl slides in with 236B 3C>2B>2C>loop>throw>dead.

[ShinsoBEAM]

oh god if you tech the grab then damage resets and your back in the loop...if you burst during loop then the clap hits you, carl slides in with 236B 3C>2B>2C>loop>throw>dead.

Yeah the safe way to burst out is, tech the throw, let the doll hit you and burst in carls face when he tries to put you back in the loop. Also if you can try to see if carl puts himself in the corner for the loop before you burst I have seen carls crossup to restart the loop, so ha, after you bursted now carl is in the corner vs tager, a spot he really doesn't want to be. Of course most carls I ran into didn't do this.

[soujiro seta]

Yeah you weren't the one I was having this problem with, it was a different guy I mean litterally he get just a hit off on me the would backpeddle till I came between them and needless to it doesn't end well.

If I can get ahold of carl I ussually make it hurt but this match is annoying.

HYDROGYN, OMGOMGOMGOMG lol, its me Hawkeye Miihawk, the carl you've been facing all this time. lol, I didn't think you were on dustloop.

I'm sorry if I've been giving you so much trouble.

Hydrogyn and I have encountered several times.

Our match goes like this

The round with me outranging/poking him with 5C, at the same time I'm moving nirvana forward by dashing behind her and using 6D. All the while as she is moving forward I'm behind her and trying to outrange/poke him with 5C just incase he thinks he can hurt her. After playing footsies and outranging/poking with 5C he eventually gets into the corner and its tager - nirvana - carl. I then look for an opening and IAD j5C 2A 5A 5B 6B/5C 6D IAD j2C allecan 5B 5C 6D throw loop.

The reason why you see me keeping a good distance is because I know tagers range, and I don't want to get magnetized.

At times he tries to rush me down but then nirvana is behind him and I just 41236D and start mixup which lead to throw loop. There are times when he has gotten me in the corner and had me for lunch.

I play tager very patiently. Trying to rush down tager recklessly can lead to carl's demise very quickly. As much as the match is in carl's favor, he can't afford to mess up cause tager can end it in a few seconds.

ggs Hydrogyn

I wish I could help you tagers on this one. A patient carl vs tager can be very hard for tager to beat cause any mistake leads to throw loop, and once carl backs tager into the corner it's in carls favor.