[CT] Rachel vs Tager

[Zeenof]

ib the 5D and 6A or electric chair before the sledge hits you, also after 5D and before B sledge, there is roughtly a 1 frame gap in which you can reversal as well but this ONLY applies if you are standing.

there is also a gap after B sledge and 5A, though tager is at the advantage in this situation, you can use electric chair or backdash out.

i like the rachel matchup, so any of you on xbox live feel free to add me if you are remotely good.

But I'm magnetized at that point, so backdash wont work. I've also tried my hardest at each point to get out of it via chair after each move to no avail. But, I guess I'll just keep trying.

[kensk]

you realize the two points i told you when to backdash are when tager does moves that dont pull in, right? hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrfffffffffffff

[ShinsoBEAM]

Since its rachael if you have wind even if we have magnet on you, you have safe rush down pressure, just don't fuck up, or do an obvious from the ground approach*read you will eat a 360A/720. Seriously a few characters can scrug off our magent a bit and racheal is one of them just don't try to be stupid and panic and try to escape from close up. Another option like most people can do if they are magnetized 9j.AAAAAAAA, then if you want followup with some safe pressure strings, trust me, at the very least this gives you time to think/ not panic, and yeah its p. difficult to punish even when predicted, especially against a rachael with wind. I have actually fought this from both sides, seriously there isn't much tager can do fullscreen frog and pumpkin to punish frog kill is near unstoppable and even if tager magnet rachael from full screen, you can just use magnet+ wind to fly across the screen at the speed of light to punish us if we try to suck you in, but yeah beware of a sledge CH, or a 2D hit, and p. much if a good tager hits a move it will do nice damage and if that tager has meter some moves like j. 2C, and 2D, will start combos that do significantly more than the 720.

[iKotomi]

If you put down a ground frog, the sparkbolt will be absorbed by the frog from the time its in her hands to when she sets it down. Furthermore, everytime the frog hops, it can absorb the sparkbolt, so the frog is rather useful for avoiding magnetism when tager has charge. If frog is between you and tager, and tager tries to sledge, you have plenty of time to react and 6B CH, so its pretty good to put down in order to catch your breath and restart pressure when you find yourself out of range.

[Sadeyo]

If you put down a ground frog, the sparkbolt will be absorbed by the frog from the time its in her hands to when she sets it down. Furthermore, everytime the frog hops, it can absorb the sparkbolt, so the frog is rather useful for avoiding magnetism when tager has charge.

If frog is between you and tager, and tager tries to sledge, you have plenty of time to react and 6B CH, so its pretty good to put down in order to catch your breath and restart pressure when you find yourself out of range.

I'm actually glad I'm not the only one who knows this tactic against Tager. Your really just baiting Tager to destroy the frog then 6b punish but if Tager decides to guard against George rush him down with j*2c~5c 6c 3c to either mixing up a 4b in there but be warned if Tager begins to IB this rush down end all tactic to back away and summon a pumpkin because if pressure is still going on Tager will immediately counter with a 360/720.

If Tager has you pressured in a corner libra guard for a little bit to push them back enough for you to jump and summon out your umbrella to reposition yourself for safety on the other side of the screen and safely zone again.

[MisterBadguy]

I eat the 5d on purpose sometimes. On the pro/con side I'd rather take some damage/get magged and get knocked back to my optimal range than have to worry about tick 360s and other such nonsence.

[TD]

OMFG, l hate fighting his fatass. Once he sledges and connects, hit or miss, it's G fucking G! IB isn't working... l just stay trapped. l tried IB > Chair/jump/CH6A, and neither work. One combo from him is like 90% life gone! I enen tried j.aaaaaaaaa, but he just blocks and sledges again... Please help... he's making my experience very crappy man... *sigh...*

[A.X.I.S.]

you do know that this match is free right?

its blockstrings that tager can't punish that works on him.

j.AxN, 5B>J.A>J.B>J.2C>J.C repeat comes to mind.

and sledge is fork bait.

[TD]

I don't need help anymore, l learned how to turtle.

[A.X.I.S.]

zone or turtle because turtling is what you do under pressure which if your under tager pressure then you did something wrong, like got close without a pumkin or frog, ate a sledge, ran out of wind.

if your zoning means popping labelia's out from long range and winding them so the sledge would not get close.

[TD]

(Don't come near me

Don't come near me

Don't come near me

SWORD IRIS!!!) x n

Or until he sledges.

Then it's

6b

6b

6b CH

MAD DAMAGE

[Alex073088]

omg this match-up yet again. i played chance wizards tager today and let me tell you he is really good. tager instant blocking shit is so fucked up even for rachel. tagers 5a rapes rachel. I repeat 5a rapes rachel clean you cant even j.2c meaty over it.theres another poke that tager has where he extends his two arms forward while standing is so fucking good as a spacing tool its annoying. tagers backdash is still stupid and it got him alot of shit for free.

i got 720 so much just trying to rush him down. and prevent him from jump all around the place. being magnatized while using rachel is so fucked i tryed to do many things when i was far from him only to constantly get hit over and over from pull back in.You being magnatized in the corner is horrible he has so many ways of just to tick you with a command throw its retarded. I been bursted back into the corner while magnatized and still couldnt get out or pressure. And lost matches because of it.

Also watch out for, him tripping you tricking you to tech by u j.2c over top of your body while laying down and 720*ing you. while magnatized whjen he bursts you do not tech immediately because he can 720 you or command throw you during your tech by atomic collider full screen(omg i just typed it and he won the round this way again because i tech after he bursted me). also tager instant blocking getting meter to dead angle you also recks rachel because of the fact your are placed right in front of his face. to top that off your dead angle is shitty in this match it doesnt send him no where.

Because there are so many tech punishes he gets extra damage off you not teching immediately off alot of shit, instant block backdash into spark bolf, 5d, or if in range grab is fucking stupid and he gets alot of damage of the first and third thing i posted.

now if i did get an opening i raped him clean but when not given one boy oh boy and you get magnatized its so fucked up. its also incredibly hard to stop his super jump approach with head but and jd. espcially while magnatized. while magnatized 6c+wind is unsafe magnatized he can instant block the whole thing and after you jump cancel it, tager can close the distance between the two of you real quick. omg both im bout to complain about ragna now, dude i can not get away. when i finall got free and block all these mix-ups and escaped my guard being broken. i get bursted in the corner for more free pressure strings on rachel. =/ lame.

yay! i just raped him first round, lost the second round corner plus mag pressure, then time out his big ass the last one. omg dude once he hits you fall apart you have no options out of mag pressure, you dont not have the speed, the range to counter him. Anyway, any rachel player if your more then 2 character body spaces away and your mag from he goes for atomic collider j.2c and he will get hit instead of you being grabbed.

[Alex073088]

okay im got alot better from playing him. ONly gay shit left to bitch about is 5b>j.2c>tager backdashes j.2c>grabs fucks your world up. and his dead angle omg it shuts your rushdown game all up, and when you tech you get instantly magnatized. for more i cant hit buttons, or i will get hit on counter bullshit!

[Spirit Juice]

This match up is in your favor in CT. I'm not sure why you're having a hard time with it.

[Alex073088]

This match up is in your favor in CT. I'm not sure why you're having a hard time with it.

lndeed.

i generally dont have a hard time with it. but this very same tager was owning this high level nu player. He punished very very good, doing block strings on him while he was instant blocking was giving him an advantage, and trying to retreat was out of the question. i mentioned all the things that work good against rachel, and theres no real way to counter them.

Also to add, watch out for command throw whiff, tech rolls away from corner, command throw again while magantized this caught the nu player.

also j.b(you block) he lands 720

The reason the match got very hard because it was incredibly tough to pressure him, and if i did lay pressure on him he would just gain the tension needed to shut my rush down by counter assulting me into a knockdown at his feet taking full advantage of it by magnatizing me and not letting me getting away. everytime i though i had space to counter attack his magnatism plus attacking, he beat out all of my moves. Cat chair was not helping at all due to its poor start-up. his 5a was recking my life, 5a comboed into something then into atomic collider the more magnatism horror during jump out attempts or attempts to attack from the sky. You guys really should play him he's incredibly good with tager. im very good with rachel myself, but his tager gave me some shit today. Its very tough getting away from him. and out of corner plus magntaism pressure. If you just sit there he can pick between tick command throw, through 5a, or 2b. or catch your jump out with atomic collider.

In the beginning of the round it was hard trying to get my offense started he would just rush right in. tager does have a shit load more options to counter you in the beginning of the round then you do. and all he has to do is react to what your doing.

now there were times that i fuckin recked his world, and slaughtered him clean. however when he started pressuring me i had no options. rachel is horrible on the defense he was abusing shit that he can not do on other characters. Like 5d>slegde+b bullshit. j.d or j. and head butt. spark bolt into that move that he does this ground cannon toward you, i tried to punish directly afterward(blocking spark bolt) with many things and i got hit each time. He does not do things that u can obviously fork easyly, if i landed it in was in previous knowledge of playing him over and over from when he would normally attempt to sledge things. he also does not waste spark bolt. whenever he used it, it connected on everyone in that room everytime. He was an incredibly skill player. a very very rare bridget ruu kinda player. another tager at a high level join and i raped him silly. but chance wizard's tager was doing quite a bit of top tier raping today.

Which goes back to what i previously mentioned before, cs rachel is worst then tager. we do not have set-ups that lead to huge damage like he does. we can not instant block backdash and deliver a large amount of damage because of it either. we do not have pressure like he does with command throws. we dont have shit, and that same jump in attacks that people abuse on tager in ct, can be done on rachel in both games. anyway im done just wanted to share an experince i had today in this match. (if rachel was so broken why cant i use my broken ways to get out of pressure?)

[TD]

Summon pumpkin in the middle of a blockstring.

J.2c, j.c, pumpkin.

lf he lb's and dosen't mash 5a, it's another free mixup attempt. Of course after the second time it will become obvious.

Tell me alex. When you're on the offensive with j.2c, how effectively do you use it? Tell me all the ways you use j.2c in a mixup.

[Alex073088]

Summon pumpkin in the middle of a blockstring.

J.2c, j.c, pumpkin.

lf he lb's and dosen't mash 5a, it's another free mixup attempt. Of course after the second time it will become obvious.

Tell me alex. When you're on the offensive with j.2c, how effectively do you use it? Tell me all the ways you use j.2c in a mixup.

okay, when i use j.2c, offcourse off 5b>j.2c this gets backdash sometimes, and when it does you get hurt for it.

After a 3c>frog> i go for j.2c without wind to meaty it, and avoid a command throw, slegde, standard grab bullshit and 5a beats that, afterward i get comboed into atomic collider.

5b>airdash>cross-up j.2c>j.c works sometimes. if hes mashing i think his 2c where he swings his arms upward nails you right for doing it. He can also instant block j.c>command throw 5b.

Using wing plus j.2c from above his head, on some occasions i got 720 after landing for a 5b, on others he was hit instead for mashing something.

I stop going for j2.c and started doing>5b>jump cancel>8>2d>2b>5b>5cc+wind after he began blocking 4b. and backdashing j.2c after 5b on block.

now i always rush down with rachel always alwasys, zoning takes to long to set-up and he can counter it very well. When i attempted to zone after backdashing to throw a lobelia a, or lobelia b he instantly sledge by reacting to my back dash. sometimes when reacting to my backdash he super jumped, j.headbutt then j.d... tagers j.d comes out super fast and its hard to anti-air that move. i did actually get with it once and i was still magnatized afterward. I tried throwing a lobelia b+wind after back dashing and the same tactic counter it. j.c works okay but you dont get much on block for it at all.

Rachel zoning espically in this match gets you no where. if it has for you then im honestly telling you that you can not have faced high level tagers. You cant even get away with zoning solbadass tager. The same tager(chance wizard) i faced beat the shit out of this high level nu player(the turntablist), an nu's zoning is much better then ours. If tager is full screen he will likely charge spark bolt in different variation and when he has this move your zoning doesnt mean shit. all they have to do is react you and you will either get hit on block or actually get hit. Im not staying full screen from tager, im not that patient, and i hate when my options are good due to him having spark bolt charge so whenever possible i would like to rush him.

Sorry for long pst discussion on this.

what the fuck. You have half the map to retreat and summon shit and Tager has more options than you at the start of the round??

rachel does not have nu's backdash.

Tager vs rachel opening counters

Rachel normals (not fork) against tager grounded head on> his counter 5a, or his normal where he shoots out both his arms toward you.

Rachels fork> tager jumps over it or 5a's

Rachel jumps away>tager jump toward rachel with and air throw/j.d/j.headbutt

Rachel backdashes then forks>tager sledges b hitting you out of your fork on counter.

Rachel jumps and summons a pumpkin(my personal favorite) tager continueously stays air born to prevent being hit meaning anything while airborn.

Rachel summons pumpkin winds it toward him> tager is on the ground ib> command throw the horror begins.

Rachel constantly backdash and back jumping away>tager gets her in the corner.

Rachel forks while standing in place>tager walks and commands throws your extended frame from afar.

All of these are legit.

he's right... l'm... a little confused at what you're saying here alex...

l mean yeah, tager pressure is gdlk on rachel but if you're getting pressured in the first place... yyyyeeeeaaaahhh... =/

Tager has two options far away. Sledge and bolt. Sledge is risky and bolt can be baited.

You can literally bitch smack him once and win the round!

You shouldn't even be rushing him down you know...

its not hard to rush down, low level medicore or even advanced players down at all with rachel if you know what your doing. but in the the rare case you find a instant blocking everything backdash, command throw, 720, tech punishing, good pressuring tager yea, you probabdly would want to sit back and back dash around all day and shoot out lobelia's. but this is ct rachel with the best pressure in the game. tager is not defensless as some would suggest and has ways to counter some of your attempts to lock him down. lol his counter assult recks rachel it shuts all that shit down and he has the advantage. Being pushed back into the corner when you finally get to punsh something reckless, and have to endure magnatized pressure even more really blows.im going to see if i can get the guy to make an account and come in and post his thoughts of our matches.

As i mentioned before i wasnt he only one losing cough nu, and some high level ragna. I had a much easier time dealing with ragna then tager, and ragna's j.c and j.b are so good. all he really has to do is super jump barrier get in from start. i will say that ragna has more options then tager, but tager isnt a sitting duck in the beginning of the round.

you also have to be careful with rachels zoning in this match, there are huge holes when shooting out lobelia's and you cannot use pumpkin to cover you if he slegdes.

Also omg, tager tech roll into command throw cancel is gay he did this once to me from bout midsceeen. right after a sword iris knockdown

[TD]

You're not baiting his moves properly. Or crossing up.

Tager has no dp so he still has to guess your mixup. You're obviously very predictable if nothing you do works. Dash j.2c over him for the crossup. Wind 1d to combo from it.

Really tager isn't that hard. Like, at all. His pressure is an issue but you should NEVER be getting pressured in the first place. What you're doing, is charging armorless into a battilion of armed soldiers when you can easily zap that army away with WITCHCRAFT!!!

[Alzarath]

snip

ok wtf.

if he keeps backdashing 5b j.2c, do something about it.

3c9d, delay crossup j.2c, 5b jc pumpkin 2d, etc...

j.a x N -> j.b is lol string on tager.

zoning is perfectly viable in this matchup, just watch for sledge/spark bolt.

speaking of sledge... that move is meh. if he's doing it in a string ib 2c rapes it, if he's doing it to get in you can 6b him when he starts to recover.

explain to me how you're getting airthrown at the start of the match when you jump AWAY? and not having nu's backdash is irrevelant, if you backdash/iad back he should not hit you.

charging full screen? lobelia ch -> sword iris/bbl.

also...

"im not that patient"

that's half your problem bro.

match-up is 7-3 for a reason, competent rachel should shit all over tager assuming equal skill. work on your zoning, work on your backdash punishing, learn some new strings/mixup maybe?

[sanshiki]

umm i'll break down why all those situations are moot or in your favour.

rachel does not have nu's backdash.

you have 44D. Granted its not free, but its there. Your aim isn't to run max screen anyway, just out of the way of Tager's immediate options and get him to whiff something. Being too far means you can't take advantage of any opening.

Rachel normals (not fork) against tager grounded head on> his counter 5a, or his normal where he shoots out both his arms toward you.

I can counterhit 5B any Tager's pokes on reaction into 3Dj.B combo. Have to hit his hitbox when he is extending his arms so this is a little hard, but totally possible.

Rachels fork> tager jumps over it or 5a's

You just got him to jump predictably, since Tager can't jump fork on reaction if you're in range. And fork beat's tager's 5a.

Rachel jumps away>tager jump toward rachel with and air throw/j.d/j.headbutt

Another "Tager reacting to rachel/Tager predicting Rachel's movements" scenario. If he's doing it on reaction, you can bloody well knock him out of an aerial attack first instead of doing whatever you were doing (probably pumpkin summon). If he's predicting you, he just jumped at you blindly, which is easily punishable. By the way you have a double jump.

Rachel backdashes then forks>tager sledges b hitting you out of your fork on counter.

You're blindly throwing out fork without seeing what Tager is doing on reaction to your backdash. Backdashing is weak in neutral anyway with all the recovery. Its only good for reversal.

Rachel jumps and summons a pumpkin(my personal favorite) tager continueously stays air born to prevent being hit meaning anything while airborn.

I love this one. Knock him out of the air with a pumpkin and watch how he techs. Fire a lobelia or antiair once you are sure of or have confirmed his tech direction.

Rachel summons pumpkin winds it toward him> tager is on the ground ib> command throw the horror begins.

I loled really.

Rachel constantly backdash and back jumping away>tager gets her in the corner.

Constantly, because you have trouble dealing with him in the first place. Point doesn't matter.

Rachel forks while standing in place>tager walks and commands throws your extended frame from afar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_manners

You're fishing for counterhits, not attacking with your 6B. Use at the appropriate range.

[Alex073088]

so i talked to a few high level players in the xboxlive community, and they have all had tough time against this guys tager. Voiidd mentioned he was in his opinion the best tager on xboxlive. You guys havent played a tager of this calibur so i can understand why ya'll feel like that match is so free. all you have to do is this and that and no worries. just like we have options he also has options. Tager is not hopeless against rachels zoning. air lobelia's and loeblia b and c have incredible periods of recovery giving him free slegde at a little bit past mid screen distance.

after each rod is activate on block, more have to be placed down allowing him time to close the distance on you. the only way to saftely zone longer is by moving far away from him. if you continue to consistently travel around through the air to keep away from him you wind will not be charging and eventually tager will close the distance via super jumping or spark bolt. you dont even have the wind to fight back. when tager is in the air his JUMP D IS ONE OF THOSE MOVES YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE A DIFFICULT TIME ANTI-AIRING. also you are magnatized from contact regardless if successful anti-aired.

6b with rachel has to be done earlier then a reaction time inorder to cleanly beat out tager. If done after seeing him do something you run the risk of be hit before it fully comes out. and dude 5a rapes 6b, if your outside 5a he wont use it. he will go for a properly space 5d.

[FlyingVe]

so i talked to a few high level players in the xboxlive community, and they have all had tough time against this guys tager. Voiidd mentioned he was in his opinion the best tager on xboxlive. You guys havent played a tager of this calibur so i can understand why ya'll feel like that match is so free. all you have to do is this and that and no worries. just like we have options he also has options. Tager is not hopeless against rachels zoning. air lobelia's and loeblia b and c have incredible periods of recovery giving him free slegde at a little bit past mid screen distance.

after each rod is activate on block, more have to be placed down allowing him time to close the distance on you. the only way to saftely zone longer is by moving far away from him. if you continue to consistently travel around through the air to keep away from him you wind will not be charging and eventually tager will close the distance via super jumping or spark bolt. you dont even have the wind to fight back. when tager is in the air his JUMP D IS ONE OF THOSE MOVES YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE A DIFFICULT TIME ANTI-AIRING. also you are magnatized from contact regardless if successful anti-aired.

6b with rachel has to be done earlier then a reaction time inorder to cleanly beat out tager. If done after seeing him do something you run the risk of be hit before it fully comes. and dude 5a rapes 6b, if your outside 5a he wont use he will go for a properly space 5d.

Though I'm not a rachel player I play a mean Tager, and spar with ChanceWizard alot so I feel the need to respond to this.

1)ChanceWizard is very good, yes, but he's still Tager. Rachel has plenty of tools to make it difficult for even the best Tager to do anything. Every 'option' he has is a guess, if you stay just out of his range he can't do crap.

2)Umm... Don't fire lobelias in sledge range. You don't have to, so why would you.

3)You can AA Tager really easily. 6A still has lots of gattlings too.

4)Tager's jD, the move is very easy to AA, just pay attention to how far he can pull you with mag.

5)You can 6B most stuff on reaction, don't do it neutral. Tager can tag you with 5C, which leads to big damage if he has spark.

6) Rachels 6B hitbox is straight up bigger than Tagers 5A. If he's hitting you out of it, you throwing 6B way too close anyways.

7)5D is mad slow. It's really only good as a prediction or when Magnetized. 5C on the other hand...

[ATGMantenbo]

It is really crystal-clear obvious who has the ultimate advantage here.

good zoning + ultimate rush down >>>>> Tagar

no need to go any further...

Tagar's game against rachel is basically a guessing game at the most part

I pretty much agree with everything FlyingVe said.

things will change in CS though

[Spirit Juice]

Do I need to make a Rachel vs Tager flowchart or something?

[toanenadiz]

Heh. This thread reminds me of the Nu vs Tager thread. The only way to end the discussion is for a flowchart to be posted.

But on a different note, what is this amazing pressure Tager has on Rachel? To me(when I use Tager, Nu or Bang), Tager's pressure is pretty bad and he has to go for the mix-up really fast or else I will counter. What about Rachel makes it so she can't escape/counter?