[CT] Rachel vs Tager

[Alex073088]

@ flying ve, Dude i appreciate you coming along and posting. most of the players here that are posting are form the psn network, so they havent faced him yet. Dude it may seem easy to you using tager's j.d against rachel 6a, but its not as easy it it may seem. I been using rachel since july of 09 and im well aware of when i can and cannot 6a due to match experince.

The only reason why i take damage from tagers j.d in the first place is by listening to players and attempting to so easyly and brokenly 6a him out the sky when i know thats what hes going to be doing. I get hit well more times attempting to 6a him then he gets anti-aired. Infact once i actually was suprised when it worked but i got magnatized anyway.

Im not denying rachel has options to shut tager down. but inorder to begin any of these options she needs space inorder to do so, when not given the space the match against any character rachel fights against gets very difficult very quickly.

@ atg warlord, Im well aware of rachel having the advantage over tager. When i first posted in this thread about my matches against chance wizard i was doing it only to give rachel players a heads up on some tactics tager has that can really shut you down.

Pretty much, rachel best pressure in the game rushdown (tagers counter) dead angle, instant block back dash or 360/720

Rachels zoning (tagers counter) super jumping/spark bolt/properly spaced sledge.

Although there's more that i will summarize in another post.

@alzarath

When ever i play patiently espically when full screen , and tager has spark bolt they normally just continue walking toward me or super jumping toward because i now have very few options. if im rushing him down, spark bolt would not be a threat. thats why i choose to rush him down. although that becomes difficult against an incredibly good instant blocking tager.

5d(tager)>instant block> he could just bait the cat chait which has happened. you have to activate the chair as soon as you instant block because if you do it later you will get hit on counter because of poor start-up. He also doesnt have to sledge he can just threathen you with his magnatized normals and pull you closer and closer.i have tried forking, lobelia a, 5a, 2a, 6a when given three character spaces away from tager during magnatism. In those efforts i normal trade infavorly or get flat beaten out.

Both of you(flying ve and atg warlord) are actually right when it comes to tager guessing rachel out. The matches became more difficult as we played more and more. The biggest thing you have to take into consideration is that guessing right can really destroy the match for anyone espcially character with no ways out of pressure. rachel magnatized is incredibly difficult to deal with. even more horrid when in the corner.

[Alex073088]

Heh. This thread reminds me of the Nu vs Tager thread. The only way to end the discussion is for a flowchart to be posted.

But on a different note, what is this amazing pressure Tager has on Rachel? To me(when I use Tager, Nu or Bang), Tager's pressure is pretty bad and he has to go for the mix-up really fast or else I will counter. What about Rachel makes it so she can't escape/counter?

lol being as though your on xboxlive i would suggest you looking up chancewizard and playing a good number of matches. the turntablist also plays nu, and hes incredibly good with nu. he generally beats me more then i beat him. He also had a very rough run against chance wizards tager.

the reason why rachel has a tough time during magnatized pressure is because of the follow:

* Her normals are too short ranged and come out much to slow.

* rachel doesnt have good mobilty options like nu does, rachel back dash can be easyly

puninshed by 5d for a long untechable knockdown, from this point tager can super jump his away over and meet you for a j.d right on your tech. or if you tech roll a free command throw or 720.

* firing a lobelia grants and infavorable trade. or when i tried shooting out a lobelia+a it was just flat beat out by tagers shit.

* because we dont have dp's or moves of invincbility what so ever, things like 5d> sledge+b>5a>mix-up become very tough to get out of.

* rachel is alot more floaty then the other character in the game are, allowing atomic collider to get her much easyly. espically if your the type of player who tries to jump to get out of pressure.

* when magnatized about midscreen, tagers ground cannon move was beating alot of shit i was throwing out. espcially after about a little bit past midscreen, blocked spark bolt into that move.

* in order for rachel to be allowed to rush tager tager or zone him she needs pumpkin, when your constantly being pull back into normals that do alot of guard stun, and command throw set-ups your not given the space to get free to have a fighting chance.

*his strings, hes like this stomp which is a low(6b), then into a move where he lounges forward with two arms thats combos after it(6c), then 5d, which pulls you right back into him for some more shit.

* when magantized its very tough to get away, and rachel needs a knockdown or some space to get started again. if shes not given this then you wont be able to fight back unless your opponent becomes predictable or sloppy.

Granted almost every single tager until i ran into chance wizard did not know how to take advantage of magnatism.

Summary of things that were troublesome against tager:

*counter assult will reck you. it puts you right by his feet, allowing him to magnatize you.

* magnatized against a good player equals terror.

* 6c+plus wind on block only really nets him free meter for instant blocking it, and is unsafe. You can make it safe by jump cancel, however, while magantized this is stil unsafe expect to atleast be blocking afterward.

*j.d is hard to anti-air safer to use wind and lobelia when its obvious players are going to super jump and go for this.

* tager instant blocking can become very dangerous, 5b> anything else but jump cancel is a free 360 or 720

* 5b>j.2c can be backdash and then punished by tager

*tech roll can canceling into command throw is gay, but you can punish his command thorw attempt with j.2c

* tagers 5d, 6a, j.d, 2d are good tools that are stupid hard to interpupt when caught in the corner magnatized.

* tager's 5a beats your normals inside at close range, and 4b is an incredibly good space tool tager has that has very good recovery and out ranges alot of rachels normals.

* an instant blocked j.2c>5b or 2b> can be punished by 360 or 720> or a simple back dash works in his favor severely when done in the corner.

Tech trap set-ups that lead into 720/360*

* j.b>you block>he lands 720* or 360*.

* your knockdown by i his 3c(two hands trip you), he j.2c because you didnt immediatley tech, you tech to avoid further damage from j.2c. he 720* or 360*.

* He bursts you, while your magnatized. you tech immediatley. he atomic colliders you into an automatic 720 or 360 that you cant escape. i fell for this a few times an lost rounds i should have won because of this.

* Nu player fell for this one, tager is right by you on a knockdown, your magnatized. he command throws in place(whiffs), you tech roll the other way he command throws catching your tech away from the corner.

* obvious one that no one falls for, spark bolt he jumps you tech you get 720. not a good one but might as well list it.

*5a on block >720 or 360 when magnatized

* some low normal(2b) where he kicks you while ducking down, is a certain amount of plus on block that allow for a tick throw un magnatized.

[Alzarath]

much of that applies to alot of chars

- you don't need to be hitting buttons at that range unless he's blocking

- 44d backdash? otherwise, don't backdash too much (if at all) when magnetized

- lobelia getting beat out by what, exactly? sledge?

- didnt you read what I said about ib 2c? if you see sledge 2c, if not 44d out or something HURRRRRR

- just have to guess, atomic collider fucks everyone that jumps.

- why are you losing to 2d? lobelia/fork/2c/5b/do I need to go on?

- shouldnt be that big of a problem. btw do you use frog at all in this match?

- block.

- annoying, yes, but thats where patience/defense come in. also his strings arent airtight, and he eventually does have to guess what you're gonna do (2c/jump out/etc?).

the rest of it is that your defense sucks.

oh, and this?

* 6c+plus wind on block only really nets him free meter for instant blocking it, and is unsafe. You can make it safe by jump cancel, however, while magantized this is stil unsafe expect to atleast be blocking afterward.

..... what. the. fuck.

why are you doing this.

you never do this outside of combos. EVER.

--

next time you two play, upload some matches.

[toanenadiz]

lol being as though your on xboxlive i would suggest you looking up chancewizard and playing a good number of matches. the turntablist also plays nu, and hes incredibly good with nu. he generally beats me more then i beat him. He also had a very rough run against chance wizards tager

* because we dont have dp's or moves of invincbility what so ever, things like 5d> sledge+b>5a>mix-up become very tough to get out of.

I agree. I've played him. ChanceWizard is a monster of a player. He knows how to force you to make mistakes and makes you feel like you are at the disadvantage whenever you are magnetized. You sometimes forgot you have the good match-up.

And is Rachel's throw range small? If a Tager uses 5D->sledge B, I usually instant block 5D and throw them out of the sledge when I use Nu and Tager (I mash 5A with Bang). Can Rachel not do this?

[Alex073088]

dude the 2d while magantized thing(which he does mostly after a blocked spark bolt), i tried to punish it on reaction over and over, with those moves, fork was getting beat out, lobelia was either getting beat out or trading infavorably, 5b has no range so i didnt use that at all. And 2c is already risky enough, i didnt try it against tha tmove though.

And dude my defense is pretty good, you can not block tick throws. overheads are not an issue. with rachel getting outside pressure, and tick throws is what makes being magnatized very hard to deal with. which is fine.

Most of the things i posted in that post where options he had while magnatized, tech traps, tick throws, and things he can do while blocking your pressure.

I use the frog alot, during pressure. the things i bring up are about when you not longer can get the frog out because tager is no longer allowing you to. To top that off, after he instant blocked the frog and a few strings he was alread counter assulting me which gave him free magantism.

I never ever 44d, but i guess in cs it be something your going to have to do more often to get away.

[Alex073088]

I agree. I've played him. ChanceWizard is a monster of a player. He knows how to force you to make mistakes and makes you feel like you are at the disadvantage whenever you are magnetized. You sometimes forgot you have the good match-up.

And is Rachel's throw range small? If a Tager uses 5D->sledge B, I usually instant block 5D and throw them out of the sledge when I use Nu and Tager (I mash 5A with Bang). Can Rachel not do this?

Thank you im glad you have had a chance to play this guy, im not suggesting that we dont have the advantage or anything. but when you go up against this guy its like all this low tier madness goes out the window. i did mentioned its sorta like ruu as bridget in guilty gear.

Rachel throw range is crap, i would say worst throw range in the game(tager having the best). also rachel's 5a is slower then most characters 5a's are if not everyones 5a. they did increase start-up in cs though.

I think people dont realize that we are usin characters that are bad under pressure, which is also a flaw that carries over to cs. so inorder to prevent losing to this significant disadvantage, we have to be given good tools to help prevent it. not broken tools but useful ones.(hmm wonder what happened to cs rachel tools lol)

[DoomieJ]

dude the 2d while magantized thing(which he does mostly after a blocked spark bolt), i tried to punish it on reaction over and over, with those moves, fork was getting beat out, lobelia was either getting beat out or trading infavorably, 5b has no range so i didnt use that at all. And 2c is already risky enough, i didnt try it against tha tmove though.

And dude my defense is pretty good, you can not block tick throws. overheads are not an issue. with rachel getting outside pressure, and tick throws is what makes being magnatized very hard to deal with. which is fine.

Most of the things i posted in that post where options he had while magnatized, tech traps, tick throws, and things he can do while blocking your pressure.

I use the frog alot, during pressure. the things i bring up are about when you not longer can get the frog out because tager is no longer allowing you to. To top that off, after he instant blocked the frog and a few strings he was alread counter assulting me which gave him free magantism.

I never ever 44d, but i guess in cs it be something your going to have to do more often to get away.

Thread is hilarious. Please keep posting dude, im hamming it up.

BTW, you can definatly ON REACTION 6B sledge. its fucking free. Also, you get 2C free vs. 2D, maged or not. Alzarath himself did this to me for even trying that stupid shit.

Also, you should listen to him. He is most definatly a better rachel player than you.

and maybe you should try 44D. like everyone thinks you should.

[bbq sauce]

@alzarath

When ever i play patiently espically when full screen , and tager has spark bolt they normally just continue walking toward me or super jumping toward because i now have very few options. if im rushing him down, spark bolt would not be a threat. thats why i choose to rush him down. although that becomes difficult against an incredibly good instant blocking tager.

5d(tager)>instant block> he could just bait the cat chait which has happened. you have to activate the chair as soon as you instant block because if you do it later you will get hit on counter because of poor start-up. He also doesnt have to sledge he can just threathen you with his magnatized normals and pull you closer and closer.i have tried forking, lobelia a, 5a, 2a, 6a when given three character spaces away from tager during magnatism. In those efforts i normal trade infavorly or get flat beaten out.

Don't listen to Alz, he doesn't know his stuff, at all. It's not like he was mentioned among, if not the single, best U.S Rachel in the CT days or consistently winning tournaments in his region, or anything...

[A.X.I.S.]

oh god what the hell happened here?

I leave DL for a few days and I see this...

[DoomieJ]

oh god what the hell happened here?

I leave DL for a few days and I see this...

we were so lost w/o you.

Now tell him what the fuck is wrong with everyone of his posts.

[Alex073088]

Thread is hilarious. Please keep posting dude, im hamming it up.

BTW, you can definatly ON REACTION 6B sledge. its fucking free. Also, you get 2C free vs. 2D, maged or not. Alzarath himself did this to me for even trying that stupid shit.

Also, you should listen to him. He is most definatly a better rachel player than you.

and maybe you should try 44D. like everyone thinks you should.

i have had sledge trade hits with fork on a few occasions, in this is situation both characters are in long stun. no good tagers will allow rachel to fork them doing slegde. right there that should tell you something in terms of your decision when in this match-up. fork should be done in anticipation of slegde. not when its stupid obvious.

However using the pumpkin to punish sledge is something different. i normally punish sledge from a far using the pumpkin which i caught chance wizards tager with occasionly. from a distance he normally just j.2c the frog if there arent any rods near him full screen.

if ever mag i definitley will 2c if i see 2d coming.

Don't listen to Alz, he doesn't know his stuff, at all. It's not like he was mentioned among, if not the single, best U.S Rachel in the CT days or consistently winning tournaments in his region, or anything...

your going off topic, this isnt about alz and listening to him to is once again rachel vs tager thread. please stay on topic

[A.X.I.S.]

we were so lost w/o you.

Now tell him what the fuck is wrong with everyone of his posts.

fucking everything.

I'll sort through this bullshit when I have a bit more time on my hands but right now I'm just gonna say all of it is wrong and he should feel ashamed of himself for posting it.

[Alzarath]

If you're getting ch'd when trying to punish sledge:

1) not spacing correctly

2) trying to hit him while it's active

and more frogs. Who cares if he kills them, it's more shit he has to deal with. If he does go for frog you can tag him with lobelia or rush in and hit him. If he's forced to block it (lobelia as frog gets near him, pumpkin, etc), even better.

[Alex073088]

ok now I'm convinced you're a fucking idiot.

" Look at it like this for example if rachel zoning is so strong against tager, then in cs the match-up wouldnt have turned into 6-4 in his favor. rachel lost all her rushdown properties is why rachel no longer owns against tager no more."

SHIT IT COULDNT POSSIBLY BECAUSE HER FUCKING ZONING GOT DESTROYED TOO, NOPE, NO WAY.

Cannons are meh, pumpkin sucks, frog sucks, 6b is worthless... holy shit I'm gonna have an aneurysm soon.

pumpkin frog can easyly be slegded through in the very same match-up, or super jump-ed over. if tager blocks a frog wtf do you get for it in cs? You dont get shit because rachels rushdown has been destroyed. In fact he would get free meter from instant blocking its 8 hits. zoning was improved imo, air sword iris makes it tough for tager to punish you on the ground while activating rods when need be. And lobelias have shorter recovery in all forms making it harder for him to nail sledge on you and allowing you to keep your ground a little bit more easyly.

No tager at a high level should be sledging in ct a point where its obvious they will get punished for it. espically by rachels 6b.

frog and pumpkin were better rushdown tools then zoning.

[Spirit Juice]

To me, it sounds like a number of things are giving you a hard time in this match up, and pretty much all of them have to do with you, the player, or the fact that you're playing online. I'll list them.

- You don't know how to tech vs Tager

- Your reaction times are bad/hindered by online

- You are zoning incorrectly

- Your rush down is predictable

- Your defensive skills are poor (i.e. blocking, reading opponents)

The Rachel vs Tager match up is very simple and can be broken down fairly easy.

Tager jumps in on you - 6A correctly and you will win.

You are NOT IN B Sledge range - Zone with pumpkin, lobelias, and Geroge. Punish B Sledge attempts on reaction.

You are IN B Sledge range - Be a bit more careful with zoning, but you can still punish B Sledge with 6B. You can choose to run away as well.

You are close to Tager - Rush him down. If you are uncomfortable using 5B JC 3D+j.2C mix up, you can just use j.A mix up instead, which is pretty much completely safe and resets itself into more high/low mix up.

You are magnetized - Bad situation, but your best bet is to play offensive rather than defensive. Trying to wait out magnetism isn't a very good idea, since trying to zone Tager becomes much more difficult. Find an opportunity to safely get in and then start your rush down. j.A mix up is probably safe, as it will waste a lot of time and get you unmagnetized.

Some other good tips when playing against Tager:

- Air neutral tech is pretty good, as it makes some of his Atomic Collider resets harder to land as opposed to you teching forward/backward

- If Tager hits you with 5D (outside of the corner of course), just roll tech backward. Emergency tech will get you sucked back into Atomic Collider. If he does 2D, cancel the roll frames into A Lobelia; it should hit him as you're getting sucked back in.

- If you're in the corner, roll teching forward or backward is a bad idea since they can be caught by 360/720. Should you expect a 360/720, just emergency tech and hold up. Even if he does 720, you're still in emergency tech animation on super flash, and he even holds the button down, as long as you're holding up, the 720 will miss.

[kro_]

Against a good player, you have to have a dynamic playstyle. CT Rachel can shut down CT Tager through zoning or rushdown. But both styles have holes, and good players will capitalize on them especially with someone who can punish like Tager.

I can tell you that I never managed to beat Mike Z when I tried using just one or the other. If rushdown is the only thing working for you, then that either means you are lacking in zoning or the opponent is lacking at dealing with rushdown.

[TD]

Not knowing how to utilize on both playstyles corrrectly and effeciently with rachel will result in a loss. She is not just Ragna with rushing down because she has a wind limit. She is not just a nu either as her seeds, pumpkin and frog require careful placement. Ont top of that you need to watch the basics- hp, meter, spacing, habits, wind/spark guages... it's a hell of a lot for a player to do, but you get a huge grace period if you are well rounded with Rachel.

Kro, do you still play CT?

[Zinac]

Ok I'm deleting all posts that involve one liners and personal bickering. If you have a problem with me deleting your posts and have a legitimate reason as to why those post should be around private message me, otherwise they are going away.

[Mike Z]

Tager jumps in on you - 6A correctly and you will win.

Tager's j.B will clash with Rachel's 6A if he does it properly - it hits the autoguard and then gets held by the hitstop long enough that the hit will clash. It's actually really easy...so don't rely on this advice too much. :^)

[gli]

I guess it's all about going to the lab (training) and finding every little quirk in match-ups to help you win!

[Spirit Juice]

Tager's j.B will clash with Rachel's 6A if he does it properly - it hits the autoguard and then gets held by the hitstop long enough that the hit will clash. It's actually really easy...so don't rely on this advice too much. :^)

Easy answer is to cancel into 5B on reaction! But yes, this much is true. Still, it's not like anything can come in favor for Tager in the clash. In other words, Mike Z is just being an ass. Don't be afraid to use 6A because it's your AA tool. If you want you can even use j.C.

[EvilWolf]

Hi guys, I have some question for Rachel vs Tager. In CT, I mostly lose to good players cos I'm always trying to do J.a mixup combo. I've seen some good Rachels pull off the J.a mixup properly and the problem I have is that I can't continue the combo after landing, e.g. they can CH me or if my first combo hits them, they can tech and block.

In CS, I'm having a lot of trouble with Tager. He sledges through everything I can throw at him, pumpkin, frog, lobellias, and I can't rely on 6B CH anymore. So what should I do against Tagers in CS? I can't find anyway to punish his sledges other than a lobellia

[TD]

j.a j.a j.a j.a j.b j.c 5b 3c (1 hit), pumpkin/frog/whatever

This is what l do.

[Alex073088]

Hi guys, I have some question for Rachel vs Tager. In CT, I mostly lose to good players cos I'm always trying to do J.a mixup combo. I've seen some good Rachels pull off the J.a mixup properly and the problem I have is that I can't continue the combo after landing, e.g. they can CH me or if my first combo hits them, they can tech and block.

In CS, I'm having a lot of trouble with Tager. He sledges through everything I can throw at him, pumpkin, frog, lobellias, and I can't rely on 6B CH anymore. So what should I do against Tagers in CS? I can't find anyway to punish his sledges other than a lobellia

use 6b anyway in cs, and then wind yourself forward and for a high low mix-up of 4b, or 2b when he recovers to block you.

Try this combo out and see if it works better.

J.a(j.a)>j.b>j.2c>j.c>5b

or

J.b>j.2c+5d>j.c>5.b>j.b>j2.c>j.c>5b>whatever. the combo is pretty easy to do =)

If your going for mix-ups get a bit more creative. do 5b>3c or 5b>j.a+3d or 5b>jumpcancel (8)>2d>2b>5b>6c+6d

or 5a>j.3c+3d =) dont be afriad of 2a>dash>grab>6d him all the way over.

In cs also if your pumpkin is out you can punish a whiffed slegde from afar on its recovery. timing is a bit strict but you can nail a counter combo the second its inactive. (lol i espically like in ct to super jump summon pumpkin get out a frog, they slegde im floating slowly below and then after there on there counter hit recovery i 2d right on top for a counter into a 6d rushdown.tagers get lazy sometimes slegde wont get you through zoning everytime.)

But i know it sucks man, scrubs are going to try and abuse it when the game comes out. Hope this helps out.

edit: j.2c+5d not 6d. for the tager loop. this loop also works on noel litchi and jin.

[tofurr]

J.a(j.a)>j.b>j.2c>j.c>5b

Isn't that not possible in CS?