Axiomatic Posted March 15, 2016 Posted March 15, 2016 41 minutes ago, Luminos564 said: Now see, here's what I do not understand: when you say "immune to Phenomena Intervention" what exactly does that entail? Does that mean they recall the events that happened prior to the time reset? Because Ragna's Azure arm more or less does that in CP when he recalls his arcade run, recognises Bullet by name (despite meeting her for the first time now) and keels over in pain as all the injuries he got. There's even snippets in past loops where after he falls into the Cauldron with Nu-13 that he thinks to himself that "this event is happening again" before wondering how would he know that. Now, I am very likely wrong in calling him a Chronophantasma but there it's not like he's completely susceptible to Phenomena Intervention either. He's even able to recognise PIs when they happen when most people shouldn't be able to tell. Then again, Mori's explanations aren't exactly consistent all the time so if you've got a more sensible explanation I will gladly listen to it. For posterity, I shall describe Phenomena Intervention as how I see it before I address your question. From my understanding, Phenomena Intervention has two facets: 1.) Taking one timelines outcome and shoving it into the "current" timeline you want to intervene on. eg.) Consider Super Bowl 50 as the event I am observing. Since this is a binary event, there are really only two outcomes: either the Broncos win or the Panthers win. Obviously, anyone watching the game saw the Broncos win (referee bias/bad calls notwithstanding). Thus the "current" timeline/phase result is the Broncos win Super Bowl 50. Of course there is the alternate timeline where the Panthers win. Suppose I wish the "current" timeline/phase to actually have the Panthers win. I do just that with PLOT powers. 2.) Changing the memories or mind of everyone present to acknowledge/accept the alternate reality as the new "current" reality/phase. eg.cont.) Now, when I injected the alternate timeline into the "current" timeline/phase we encounter a problem. The teleprompter and stores all start selling Panther merchandise, but everyone who saw the game or played in it knew the Broncos should have won. Thus I need to also alter everyones memories to accept my timeline/phase altering. We know for a fact that some people can reject phenomenon intervention (see Seigi AKA Hakumen) and how in CP in the Battle for Ragna's Pants, team protagonist ensured no one could intervene because there were just TOO MANY people watching, Amatarasu included. Basically, if there is a shit ton of people watching, tweeting, and talking about something, it gets harder to intervene on it. Kokonoe mentions this in CP, but it may have also had something to do with Celica being there as well. Recall from Guilty Gear how when Sol killed Order Sol, he didn't just implode because he didn't accept Order Sol's death as his own death, rather he could recall his own origins. Thus, he rejected I-No's "phenomenon intervention" since he still had his memories in tact. Contrast with how I-no saved Ky from dying and erased his memories to account for a discrepancy in events, so Ky wasn't like "Didn't I just die...?". (Yes, I know they have different rules, but I thought the comparison was fairly inline with Blazblue rules based on circumstantial evidence). On to you question, Luminos564: I believe Ogiga99 mentioned before, but what Ragna goes through in CP when he starts spurting blood after the timeline reset/ CP arcade continuum shift, what he is experiencing is not Phenomenon Intervention but rather soul degradation. Basically, its the price he pays for having the Azure Grimoire (other than the passively sucking people's souls via proximity and being slowly corrupted/devoured). Soul degradation isn't explained very well, but Rachel mentions in CS how Ragna's Azure Grimoire remembers wounds. Extending that, he basically has a partial physical memory (like how someone's burn scars ache around heat/fire when an accident is not the first thing on their mind when they go to make their Top Ramen). Time for another shitty anaolgy! eg.) If Ragna going through each Continuum Shift/ Phenomenon Intervention/ timeline reset is like a program being updated and being sent to restore point/ a previous build, Ragna's Azure Grimoire is like a flashdrive with ALL the update history that randomly interjects busted code to compile (i.e. instant wounds from previous timeline) from previous builds. I agree with your point though, Luminos564, that Ragna basically has a Phenomenon Intervention booster shot thanks to his Azure Grimoire. It isn't true immunity, but it is certainly resistance to it. If we want to go down the dark rabbit hole of considering Ranga's Azure Grimorie as a sentient entity, then since it existed before the timeloops started and forces soul degradation on Ragna, we can think of it as a "Those Who Should Not Exist"/Celica type Chronophantasma. It technically is Ragna from a FUBARed CT timeline...so yeah...it definitely has the prereqs for being a Celica type Chronophantasma. And we know Celica being super thirsty/ hounding Ragna caused him to be truly immune to Phenomon Intervention (dude, she was ALL over him in CP not giving him even 5 minutes alone, and when she did Terumi came out to play). Since his arm can't really do much except vibrate/shake at its own discretion, its Chronophantasma effects on Ragna are more limited (Ragna's arm can't exactly go "Protect me Ragna! <3 <3 ; D" like Celica can) We Bionic Commando now lol. No matter what though, Ragna gets shafted by it sometimes, like having a wound he shouldn't have. Someone else will have to explain why he somehow has some memories though (CP story mode when he recalls Azrael's arcade route since he was in Azrael's arcade ending). The memory part has me stumped though. 17 hours ago, Ogiga99 said: Also, one of the rules of both kinds of Chronophantasma is that they are immune to Phenomenon Intervention. We've seen Ragna get intervened on many times. Naoto was also subject to Phenomenon Intervention in BE and I think CF but I'm not positive on the second one. Phase Shift Ragna seems very different since his traveling there is the Time for Decision. He essentially sets the history of the Dark War in stone by going back meaning he makes it so he does belong there, in fact his presence becomes irrefutable fact. Ogiga99, I thought only "Those Who Do Not Exist"/Celica type Chronophantasma were immune to Phenomenon Intervention? Like, Noel was certainly clueless during CS and CT when we saw her in alt endings and bad endings from how she reacted to her True end (why didn't she remember Ragna went Black Beast on her in CT and CS? Rachel certainly did but why not Noel then?). She certainly had her Successor powers to see other peoples memories, but I don't recall an event where she knew what was up with the plot. I think the fact Rachel is the same type of Chronophantasma as Noel ("Phantom of Time"), mucked things up since she was an Onlooker/Observer (still unsure which is the proper one now that we have the distinction). I know BB wikia says both types are immune, but I think that came at a time when Rachel was immune due to her spectator/Onlooker role and not because she was a "Phantom of Time" Chronophantasma. There appears to be a discrepancy between Noel and Rachel; it doesn't help Noel is the Successor to the Azure and Rachel was formerly an Onlooker, two of the most drastic exceptions possible for obvious reasons related to causality. Feel free to refute my claim though, since I may have forgotten a line, library mode descriptions, or etc.
JustaMaskedFreak Posted March 15, 2016 Posted March 15, 2016 59 minutes ago, Axiomatic said: I think the fact Rachel is the same type of Chronophantasma as Noel ("Phantom of Time") This may sound obnoxious and stupid, but could Nine be something similar to Rachel due to be the "Phantom of Labyrinth" (Or for just being a Phantom)? After reading everything, also, something came into my mind: We may not know much about but what about Terumi? What is he to see "everything" (possibility) to find the perfect time, like in CT? And the world keeps resetting, like "the life needs to be like this and we must keep going and resetting until we find a Happy ending for everyone (Amaterasu)". I really can't recall well about CT, but, despite Noel saved Ragna and leading to a new possibility, what made to the world not reset all back again before CT, like all the other possibilities when Ragna fused with Nu? 59 minutes ago, Axiomatic said: Noel was certainly clueless during CS and CT when we saw her in alt endings and bad endings from how she reacted to her True end (why didn't she remember Ragna went Black Beast on her in CT and CS? Rachel certainly did but why not Noel then?). She certainly had her Successor powers to see other peoples memories, but I don't recall an event where she knew what was up with the plot. I think the fact Rachel is the same type of Chronophantasma as Noel ("Phantom of Time"), mucked things up since she was an Onlooker/Observer (still unsure which is the proper one now that we have the distinction). I know BB wikia says both types are immune, but I think that came at a time when Rachel was immune due to her spectator/Onlooker role and not because she was a "Phantom of Time" Chronophantasma. There appears to be a discrepancy between Noel and Rachel; it doesn't help Noel is the Successor to the Azure and Rachel was formerly an Onlooker, two of the most drastic exceptions possible for obvious reasons related to causality. I was thinking too about an Onlooker/Observer being immune, in Rachel's case, but then we have other characters that are observers too who seems to be affected by the Phenomena Intervention (or isn't immune) Kokonoe is an example of this. Which then, maybe the only possibility explaining Rachel immunity could be the fuse of being a Chronophantasma and an Onlooker. Like she is really there just to watch, not intervene. And after intervening and not being an Observer anymore makes her vulnerable to PI. It is just something that came into my mind, feel free to disagree and all.
Toxin45 Posted March 15, 2016 Posted March 15, 2016 Not quite for Nine since *cough* Me is Nine *Cough* but Amatertasu is still a mystery and apparently Naoto's ending involves Es meaning that Es did not get a happy ending as we thought....
JustaMaskedFreak Posted March 15, 2016 Posted March 15, 2016 9 minutes ago, Toxin45 said: Not quite for Nine since *cough* Me is Nine *Cough* but Amatertasu is still a mystery and apparently Naoto's ending involves Es meaning that Es did not get a happy ending as we thought.... Sorry about this one... I wanted to refer at Amaterasu only, but not being in third person, I forgot about Me (character) when typing. And I already knew about Nine and Me being the same person. Thanks to reminding it.
Axiomatic Posted March 15, 2016 Posted March 15, 2016 2 hours ago, JustaMaskedFreak said: This may sound obnoxious and stupid, but could Nine be something similar to Rachel due to be the "Phantom of Labyrinth" (Or for just being a Phantom)? Nine is certainly someone that is supposed to be dead, but from what I gather about the "Phantoms of Time", they are people that have a new life all together compared to what they're supposed to have. eg.) Mu-12 was just supposed to be a murakumo (an emotionless tool) used by Sector Seven to make a Black Beast, but after Ibukido, she became the Noel we all know (a timid girl with existential angst) If I use a soap opera analogy (yeah I know, eyes rolling and what not) A "Phantom of Time" is like a character that gets amnesia and becomes a completely new "character" with a different personality that doesn't recognize all the people they should (its effectively recasting a character into a new role with an accident serving as a plot device) In contrast, Nine is like the type of character that returns after being "killed off" to exact vengeance on those that wronged them. It may be crude, but that is how I distinguish between the two circumstances. I think the biggest difference is that Nine, even as Phantom, was still Nine, her love of Celica still intact. For Noel, we know all her memories about being Mu were effectively gone until Terumi showed her the truth in CS. (If the theory holds that Rachel=Raquel's Chronophantasma, then Rachel certainly has no memories of that life either from what we have seen). Quote I was thinking too about an Onlooker/Observer being immune, in Rachel's case, but then we have other characters that are observers too who seems to be affected by the Phenomena Intervention (or isn't immune) Kokonoe is an example of this. Which then, maybe the only possibility explaining Rachel immunity could be the fuse of being a Chronophantasma and an Onlooker. Like she is really there just to watch, not intervene. And after intervening and not being an Observer anymore makes her vulnerable to PI. JustaMaskedFreak, in Kokonoe's case, your confusion likely stems from the fact that Kokonoe is an Observer but not an Onlooker. Unfortunately, the English localization mucked up distinction. Kokonoe is currently observing Arakune and Hakumen, but Kokonoe is not an Onlooker. Amane is an Onlooker but not an Observer as he is currently not maintaining the existence of any one individual but exists outside the flow of things. From my understanding (someone can correct me if they disagree): Onlooker = "Audience" Member which is basically like one of us players who see multiple arcade routes being present in the game world but not being allowed to affect the plot (but your allowed to suggests things for reasons?) Observer = Think of the character like a Master in Fate/Stay or Fate/Zero where their life maintains the existence of something else (i.e. their Servant). In Jojo terms, an Observer is a stand user, while the one they observe is their stand. I was thinking just being an Onlooker is enough to prevent Phenomenon Intervention, but it could be the combination of the two characteristics as well JustaMaskedFreak. Quote After reading everything, also, something came into my mind: We may not know much about but what about Terumi? What is he to see "everything" (possibility) to find the perfect time, like in CT? And the world keeps resetting, like "the life needs to be like this and we must keep going and resetting until we find a Happy ending for everyone (Amaterasu)". I really can't recall well about CT, but, despite Noel saved Ragna and leading to a new possibility, what made to the world not reset all back again before CT, like all the other possibilities when Ragna fused with Nu? Concerning Terumi, at this point I've accepted Terumi as Nyarlathotep or basically a non-Christian Satan figure. If I had to guess though, I would say that Terumi's game-guide ability to see all realities must be linked to his tenure in the Susano'o unit (see how Hakumen is similarly unaffected by the Embryo's memory wipe or how he recalls his Wheel of Fortune Timeline). We know for a fact in CF Act II Hakumen is willing repeating the Embryo "loops" to beat Izanami, so he might have been doing that in CT or CS but that is debatable (his encounters with Hazama in CS certainly refute this though). The way Rachel (one of the Sankishin and an Onlooker) described Amatarasu in CP with the "Girl and the Book" story, it certainly does seem like that is Amatarasu's endgame is just a happy ending to no avail. The way Nine describes how Celica always dies though, seems to suggest Amatarasu is only after a happy ending for certain people (see how in CP everyone was okay with letting Tenjo's soul get devoured by the Lynchpin but there was not universal agreement when it was Celica's soul on the table for being a sacrifice). Hell if I know exactly what Amatarasu is aiming for. Someone else is gonna have to tackle the CT thing though. My guess is because Noel has the Power of the Eye. Wasn't the loop caused by Amatarasu resetting to 2100 when Takamagahara nuked Kagatsuchi in 2199? Seeing how CS went down, Takamagahara having Noel go all Mu on Amatarasu was what they wanted since they would be head honchos in terms of Phenomenon Intervention once she was gone and they could move toward their endgame (which I believe was returning the world to seither if I remember the intro to CS correctly).
Yoshirocks92 Posted March 15, 2016 Posted March 15, 2016 2 hours ago, Toxin45 said: Not quite for Nine since *cough* Me is Nine *Cough* but Amatertasu is still a mystery and apparently Naoto's ending involves Es meaning that Es did not get a happy ending as we thought.... Yeah I wish I knew the story with Amaterasu as well but I can only hope Act III brings us something to put this complicated puzzle together.
JustaMaskedFreak Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 Thanks for clearing many of my doubts, Axiomatic. 34 minutes ago, Axiomatic said: Concerning Terumi, at this point I've accepted Terumi as Nyarlathotep or basically a non-Christian Satan figure. If I had to guess though, I would say that Terumi's game-guide ability to see all realities must be linked to his tenure in the Susano'o unit (see how Hakumen is similarly unaffected by the Embryo's memory wipe or how he recalls his Wheel of Fortune Timeline). We know for a fact in CF Act II Hakumen is willing repeating the Embryo "loops" to beat Izanami, so he might have been doing that in CT or CS but that is debatable (his encounters with Hazama in CS certainly refute this though). I know that Susano'o Unit is really that strong, but I didn't guessed the remainings could be that powerful and even without the Unit, his powers seems to be more completed than Hakumen's since even losing his body in boundary, he seemed to have no trouble to coming back with full power. (Maybe that's because his Susano'o is assembled directly into his ghost form and the power could easily protect him.) 40 minutes ago, Axiomatic said: The way Rachel (one of the Sankishin and an Onlooker) described Amatarasu in CP with the "Girl and the Book" story, it certainly does seem like that is Amatarasu's endgame is just a happy ending to no avail. The way Nine describes how Celica always dies though, seems to suggest Amatarasu is only after a happy ending for certain people (see how in CP everyone was okay with letting Tenjo's soul get devoured by the Lynchpin but there was not universal agreement when it was Celica's soul on the table for being a sacrifice). Hell if I know exactly what Amatarasu is aiming for. IIRC, many of the Phenomenon Intervention happens involving a "Noel" (Nu and Izanami) with the only exception being Ragna vs Azrael. But if your theory of Amaterasu is only looking after a happy ending for certain people, it could head straight to Ragna. I know it have some flaws, like Ragna current state, the church (losing his arm) and, maybe, about Lambda's death. And if we analyze about Tenjo or Celica being devoured on the Lynchpin, it has some important things to consider, and it is not about Ragna meeting Celica in the past and go rampage over Kokonoe, mostly. My main argument about this is: Kokonoe brought someone who was already dead to die again (I consider being sealed something similar to death), and since everyone lived with Celica for while, not knowing Kokonoe's plans to her (Seriously, who besides Kokonoe, and Tager maybe, knew about using Celica in Kushinada Lynchpin? If Nine discovers it, someone will get punished), nobody would like to see her leave in such a way, forever. And, in my opinion, I guess it would have happened the same if Tenjo was the one brought back, then Bang would go on rampage instead of Ragna, but since Tenjo was already dead and inside Rettenjo, it was another possibility. Plus, if you're saying that Nine describes Celica's death in some way that isn't being devoured by the Lynchpin, we do not know if Amaterasu would reset the world.
Luminos564 Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 The funny thing is, I think Nine is well aware that Kokonoe tried (though failed) to use Celica as an anti-Seithr Missile. Nine's Arcade Act II has her encounter Kokonoe and Nine brings up one of "Kokonoe's crimes which she cannot forgive". She does not specify what that crime is, but considering this is Nine we're talking about, it's likely Celica-related. It's probably why Nine seems to only have some degree of respect for only Ragna in the new world (though not enough to not want him offed at the nearest convenience) while everyone else can go die in a fire...one preferably using the Amaterasu unit as the fuel.
Contreras1991 Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 So Nine loves more his sister that his own daughter? What i dont understand in the ending of Terumi is the existance of two Nines
Yoshirocks92 Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 2 hours ago, Contreras1991 said: So Nine loves more his sister that his own daughter? What i dont understand in the ending of Terumi is the existance of two Nines Well I'm not sure how that works.
JustaMaskedFreak Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 That Terumi ending, he fought with a phantom of her, like a clone. Edit: Guys, I saw something, Ragna's conversation with Azrael in act II. It seems the Mad Dog knows about Phenomenon Interventions too, saying that Ragna could be the "correct one" and the "previous ones" were quite mouthful. He even asked if "this you" could fulfill him this time.
Axiomatic Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 14 hours ago, Contreras1991 said: So Nine loves more his sister that his own daughter? What i dont understand in the ending of Terumi is the existance of two Nines Nine's feelings for Celica are pretty extreme to say the least. Like JustaMaskedFreak said, Nine basically used a doppelganger against Terumi to mess with him; she basically used something like Hibiki's drive to send a fake version of herself after him while she just chilled. 4 hours ago, JustaMaskedFreak said: Edit: Guys, I saw something, Ragna's conversation with Azrael in act II. It seems the Mad Dog knows about Phenomenon Interventions too, saying that Ragna could be the "correct one" and the "previous ones" were quite mouthful. He even asked if "this you" could fulfill him this time. Well, Azrael may appear to be just a meathead fighting machine (since he gets REALLY happy in challenging fights) but Azrael is actually pretty self-aware about the shenanigans of the plot. To what extend I could only guess, but we've seen him TEAR through his embryo illusion to get to Nine, the only other person to do that was Relius. Relius (well Amane knew what was up, but he kind of doesn't count due to the whole Onlooker business)! I wouldn't be suprised if he knew the Ikaruga Civil Wars real purpose was just to gather souls, but he killed people regardless since he was looking for a challenge. 16 hours ago, Luminos564 said: The funny thing is, I think Nine is well aware that Kokonoe tried (though failed) to use Celica as an anti-Seithr Missile. Nine's Arcade Act II has her encounter Kokonoe and Nine brings up one of "Kokonoe's crimes which she cannot forgive". She does not specify what that crime is, but considering this is Nine we're talking about, it's likely Celica-related. It's probably why Nine seems to only have some degree of respect for only Ragna in the new world (though not enough to not want him offed at the nearest convenience) while everyone else can go die in a fire...one preferably using the Amaterasu unit as the fuel. In Act I it definitely seemed like she respected Ragna a little, hoping he succeeds. But then in Act II she gets super pissed around him since its Ragna's fault we're going through the plot? As Takamagahara once said: "Ragna the Bloodedge is the origin..." whatever that means. So # of times Ragna saved Celica (in Nine's eyes): 1 # of times Celica died because Ragna exists: 700+ (going based off just the number of phases we are aware of 725 at least by Takamagahara's count) I think Nine's animosity toward Kokonoe stems from the fact she acted just like her grandfather, Soichiro Ayaksuki in regards to said anti-Seithr Missle; so Nine's philosophy in Act II is its okay to be crazy obsessed with your plan to succeed so long as that plan protects Celica from harm. I'm just surprised she isn't more pissed off at Kokonoe. (real talk, the Mercury family Vs. theme really grew on me, especially the choir parts since I find it very fitting in representing the family's relationship in CF) I wonder if she thinks of Ragna and Jin differently now she knows Celica was effectively a mother to them (Saya might be a little much since the whole voodoo zombie relationship they have right now through Izanami)? Well I guess since Jin is now Hakumen 2.0, her feelings might be muddled since Nine and Hakumen were not exactly the best of friends in Phase Shift. 17 hours ago, JustaMaskedFreak said: I know that Susano'o Unit is really that strong, but I didn't guessed the remainings could be that powerful and even without the Unit, his powers seems to be more completed than Hakumen's since even losing his body in boundary, he seemed to have no trouble to coming back with full power. (Maybe that's because his Susano'o is assembled directly into his ghost form and the power could easily protect him.) IIRC, many of the Phenomenon Intervention happens involving a "Noel" (Nu and Izanami) with the only exception being Ragna vs Azrael. But if your theory of Amaterasu is only looking after a happy ending for certain people, it could head straight to Ragna. I know it have some flaws, like Ragna current state, the church (losing his arm) and, maybe, about Lambda's death. And if we analyze about Tenjo or Celica being devoured on the Lynchpin, it has some important things to consider, and it is not about Ragna meeting Celica in the past and go rampage over Kokonoe, mostly. My main argument about this is: Kokonoe brought someone who was already dead to die again (I consider being sealed something similar to death), and since everyone lived with Celica for while, not knowing Kokonoe's plans to her (Seriously, who besides Kokonoe, and Tager maybe, knew about using Celica in Kushinada Lynchpin? If Nine discovers it, someone will get punished), nobody would like to see her leave in such a way, forever. And, in my opinion, I guess it would have happened the same if Tenjo was the one brought back, then Bang would go on rampage instead of Ragna, but since Tenjo was already dead and inside Rettenjo, it was another possibility. Plus, if you're saying that Nine describes Celica's death in some way that isn't being devoured by the Lynchpin, we do not know if Amaterasu would reset the world. Never underestimate the Power of Seigi! The Unit Cookie Dough is the ultimate plot device (except when it doesnt work...) Real talk, the Susano'o unit seems WAY better than Tsukyomi in terms of passive buffs etc. Yeah, my theory on Amatarasu focusing on only certain people having a happy ending isn't the strongest, but I guess she realized its impossible not to shaft someone in the course of things (if you get a sweet promotion that means someone else DIDN'T get that permission for example). I'm just surprised she has let Terumi and Relius run amok for so long, since she could just purposely try not to remember them. Maybe Ragna losing an arm and his whole childhood being destroyed is the best she could manage? *see below* Celica wouldn't just be sealed in the Lynchpin though, the way they described it was she would have her soul ripped piece by piece until their was nothing left to power the thing. Of course, in typical anime fashion, its okay if that happens to Tenjo but not our waifu Celcia, nope. Can't have that *eyes roll*. Couldn't they have just asked Trinity to make Tenjo a new body with Muchourin or something since Tenjo's soul was fine and dandy? Terumi has no problems getting new bodies and Muchourin gave him a two-for-one special on accident. *shrugs* I don't know about Bang going Liam Neeson, since if Tenjo would sacrifice himself, he could probably get Bang and Kagura to go along with it since its harder to strong arm a grown man then a young girl who has a history of backing down when Ragna tells her to when she tries to be a martyr. Kagura certainly didn't stand by Tenjo in the Civil War, instead following his request of looking after Homura ("Tenjo entrusted you with the Rettenjo and he entrusted me with [Homura]"-Kagura CP). Its really a coin-flip about Bang though, since his hot-bloodedness might Do we know if the Power of Order wielders are selected by Amatarasu or by something higher? By my count we have the following wielders: Hakumen/Jin (Have you actually played the game?) Goal: Slay evil and the Black Beast Celica (Revealed in CP, I think) Goal: Walking Anti-Seither sponge. Rejects violence after all the "violence" (read: slaughter) during the Dark War? Anti-Seithr Crystals (Phase Shift 3/4) Goal: More Anti-Seither sponges. Makoto (Revealed in CF; foreshadowed with "Strong Soul" stuff in CS and CP) Goal: Friendship? We know, at least from Jubei's perspective that they're born in response to something with the whole anti-body spiel. But is Amatarasu selecting them to be anti-bodies or is the universe somehow selecting them to bring equilibrium to the mess the BB verse has become? 3/4 (technically 4/5 but Jin = Hakumen) of these Power of Order power rangers are in response to the Black Beast, something that exists Outside of Logic (Kotowari), which is confirmed to be one of the most unnatural things ever. If Amatarasu's plans to "save" Ragna or to get him on the Good End was only possible after his fucked up origin story, maybe Amatarasu is fighting the natural order of things to do so, resulting in the mess we know as the plot. Basically, the universe is going all Final Destination on Ragna since he is the Black Beast and it wants him gone, but Amatarasu thought Ragna was probably since he could "save" her from being killed since in Rachel's story the Girl is the monste (read: he was the dreamiest boy) and she is trying to make sure he reaches the promised land that is whatever Good Ending she has planned (right arms, homes, and mother figures be damned!). Personally I think she is just trying to save herself without blowing up the world. If you think about it, Terumi seems to have gone nutso from seeing the repeats over and over (he wasn't exactly the nicest person though) so you could only imagine how much Amatarasu must want out of her deal in life, especially since there is always people gunning for you in the form of Relius, Terumi, Nine, Takamagahara, etc. That brings me to my next point,if Rachel's CP book story about the girl is true, and that Girl really is Amatarasu, doesn't that mean everyone gunning for Amatarasu are the "Hero"(es) from the story? You know, because the Girl rewrites the world but the world views her as a monster. So maybe the Girl is hoping that keeping Ragna around as a wildcard (as many people have described him) can lead to a different ending than the repeats or Bad End route Amatarasu seems to be stuck on in her playthrough? Fuck if I know how though.
Ogiga99 Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 9 hours ago, JustaMaskedFreak said: Guys, I saw something, Ragna's conversation with Azrael in act II. It seems the Mad Dog knows about Phenomenon Interventions too, saying that Ragna could be the "correct one" and the "previous ones" were quite mouthful. He even asked if "this you" could fulfill him this time. I don't think he knows about Phenomenon Intervention specifically. Azrael just retains his true memories since he came from outside the Embryo and therefore knows that everyone else lost their memories when they don't remember him or knows that they are illusions created by the Embryo when they act completely different. He's similar to Rachel except he voices his opinion on the subject more and doesn't seem to know the exact cause of the situation. 4 hours ago, Axiomatic said: In Act I it definitely seemed like she respected Ragna a little, hoping he succeeds. But then in Act II she gets super pissed around him since its Ragna's fault we're going through the plot? As Takamagahara once said: "Ragna the Bloodedge is the origin..." whatever that means. So # of times Ragna saved Celica (in Nine's eyes): 1 # of times Celica died because Ragna exists: 700+ (going based off just the number of phases we are aware of 725 at least by Takamagahara's count) I wonder if she thinks of Ragna and Jin differently now she knows Celica was effectively a mother to them (Saya might be a little much since the whole voodoo zombie relationship they have right now through Izanami)? Well I guess since Jin is now Hakumen 2.0, her feelings might be muddled since Nine and Hakumen were not exactly the best of friends in Phase Shift. The way I see it there are three ways in which Ragna could be "the origin." One is that he becomes the original Black Beast (the Black Beast appeared in 2099, the day before the beginning of the time loop so the Black Beast in the Dark War is always the same one made from a Ragna/Nu fusion). Two is Ragna's role in the Time for Decision. By going back in time to Phase 0 of the Dark War, Ragna established the events of the Dark War as fact. Regardless of whether or not he saved humanity, his actions solidified that version of the Dark War as the one and only possibility and prevented any other outcome. Three is that the person who became known as Ragna the Bloodedge requires Celica's death to even exist. If Terumi didn't attack the church, kill the older Celica who raised Ragna and cut off his arm, then Ragna would never become the SS Class Criminal who possessed the Azure Grimoire. Basically Celica's death is like how Bruce Wayne's parents have to die for him to become Batman. This explanation in turn covers the other two, since he couldn't do either of those if he never gets the Azure Grimoire and attacks Kagutsuchi. I don't think it changes anything since she calls Ragna's wish (living with Jin, Saya and Celica in the church peacefully) a stupid dream. In fact, she says that because that wish can never be granted, "that girl" (Celica) was dragged into it. This would point to the third theory, that Celica needs to die for the Ragna we know to exist, making his wish a paradox (much like Makoto can't have a world with Noel since Noel prevents her from wishing for a new world). 4 hours ago, Axiomatic said: Yeah, my theory on Amatarasu focusing on only certain people having a happy ending isn't the strongest, but I guess she realized its impossible not to shaft someone in the course of things (if you get a sweet promotion that means someone else DIDN'T get that permission for example). I'm just surprised she has let Terumi and Relius run amok for so long, since she could just purposely try not to remember them. Maybe Ragna losing an arm and his whole childhood being destroyed is the best she could manage? *see below* Celica wouldn't just be sealed in the Lynchpin though, the way they described it was she would have her soul ripped piece by piece until their was nothing left to power the thing. Of course, in typical anime fashion, its okay if that happens to Tenjo but not our waifu Celcia, nope. Can't have that *eyes roll*. Couldn't they have just asked Trinity to make Tenjo a new body with Muchourin or something since Tenjo's soul was fine and dandy? Terumi has no problems getting new bodies and Muchourin gave him a two-for-one special on accident. *shrugs* I don't think it's so much that Amaterasu doesn't care about certain people getting a happy ending so much as it's that she can't undo everything to make a happy world. In the Story of the World the beginning of the story is set in stone so The Girl tries to change the ending. The Time for Decision means that even Amaterasu is powerless to change anything before the Dark War, since those events are fact (and in turn the events that led to Ragna going back in in time in the first place, i.e. Celica's death, cannot be changed). Even Amaterasu and her ultimate Phenomenon Intervention can only create causality that is possible based on the actions someone is likely to take. She cannot just erase Terumi and Relius because that is not possible and she can't stop them from doing their evil plans because they will always want to do that and their is no event she can Intervene on that will change their goals. In CT she made Noel the Successor of the Azure to Observe the True Ending as fact so that the time loop could end because the True Ending was good enough to let the world continue (it's the only time Kagutsuchi isn't nuked by Take-Mikazuchi and everyone dies). Do we know for sure that the way Celica and Tenjo would activate the Lynchpin are exactly the same? Tenjo has the additional factor of Phoenix: Rettenjo. Nine made the Rettenjo as an alternative to plugging in Celica so at the very least I would like to believe she made it so it could prevent the whole "being conscious while your soul is slowly drained away" part. Even if Trinity could use Muchourin theoretically, that was impossible given the progression of the plot. By the time they were ready to use Kushinada's Lynchpin (and learned that Tenjo's soul was inside the Rettenjo in the first place) all the Cauldrons were flooding the world with seithr and absorbing the souls of everyone on the planet and Take-Mikazuchi was poised to destroy the Master Unit. Trinity didn't even know about Tenjo since she was part of "Operation Kill Terumi" at the time. 4 hours ago, Axiomatic said: That brings me to my next point,if Rachel's CP book story about the girl is true, and that Girl really is Amatarasu, doesn't that mean everyone gunning for Amatarasu are the "Hero"(es) from the story? You know, because the Girl rewrites the world but the world views her as a monster. So maybe the Girl is hoping that keeping Ragna around as a wildcard (as many people have described him) can lead to a different ending than the repeats or Bad End route Amatarasu seems to be stuck on in her playthrough? Fuck if I know how though. At the moment everyone is gunning for Playable Noel, not Amaterasu (Jin and Izanami explicitly confirm this in Noel's Act II Arcade). Whether or not Amaterasu is responsible for keeping Ragna around or not is unknown (his existence is solidified and his survival may or may not have been a condition The Girl felt was needed for a good ending to CT) she definitely seems to be pinning her hopes on him. Of course the problem is The Girl in the story is pinning her hope on the Hero and Rachel pretty clearly told the Story of the World for Ragna's sake (and he compares himself to the Hero in that he can only destroy, not save) so having Ragna not be the Hero seems odd.
Toxin45 Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 Or the Origin of the Grimore. I mean the very first Grimore.
Kenji Harima Posted March 17, 2016 Posted March 17, 2016 First thing -> Hello everyone! I have just read all this topic. I see a lot of thesis. Too many to response them all. I won't write all my reflections so this post won't be complete. I am too tired today 3 hours ago, Axiomatic said: WAY better than Tsukyomi in terms of passive buffs etc. Even in terms of defense? Probably not. Interesting thoughts in these statements: 3 hours ago, Axiomatic said: If Amatarasu's plans to "save" Ragna or to get him on the Good End was only possible after his fucked up origin story, maybe Amatarasu is fighting the natural order of things to do so, resulting in the mess we know as the plot. Basically, the universe is going all Final Destination on Ragna since he is the Black Beast and it wants him gone, but Amatarasu thought Ragna was probably since he could "save" her from being killed since in Rachel's story the Girl is the monste (read: he was the dreamiest boy) and she is trying to make sure he reaches the promised land that is whatever Good Ending she has planned (right arms, homes, and mother figures be damned!). Personally I think she is just trying to save herself without blowing up the world. When you wrote about "Promised Land" I have just thought about this song: http://blazblue.wikia.com/wiki/Stardust_memory_~Yakusoku_no_basho~ Yep, just a nostalgia love song but some hints in lyrics might be there -> the most important Girl's memory. What a relationship "The Girl" and Ragna's "alternatively timeline not-altered predecessor" really had??? I think after we got this revelation about "Amaterasu" and that "Stardust Memory" usually plays on Noel/Ragna moments we can exclude now their eventually family relationship (forget about her word "Brother" In Chronophantasma) The second thing now what do happen to the world if "The Girl" will be rescue??? If the BB's world might be not real (I will back to this state) than which one is? XBlaze? 3 hours ago, Axiomatic said: That brings me to my next point,if Rachel's CP book story about the girl is true, and that Girl really is Amatarasu, doesn't that mean everyone gunning for Amatarasu are the "Hero"(es) from the story? You know, because the Girl rewrites the world but the world views her as a monster. So maybe the Girl is hoping that keeping Ragna around as a wildcard (as many people have described him) can lead to a different ending than the repeats or Bad End route Amatarasu seems to be stuck on in her playthrough? Rachel probably believe in other ending too. She were and she is still protecting Master Unit. I start think that Rachel's book it's also the mirrage image of Noel's poem: It's her hobby and after all that romantic story really suits. Noel Poem's are about "finding true love". Conclusion? I would say "The Girl" waits for not "save" from Ragna but love. Nu it's a cheated-reflection of this desire made by Relius. It strange thing that "Amaterasu" doesn't work like other Sankishin -> The Girl isn't conciousness. Now I doubt if she has a soul. Noel's original body belong to Master Unit and her soul is in artificial copy? Probably. However playable Noel need to be protect. Yes, by Hero, and The Hero it's Ragna. Of course, all this things if we are consistent that "True Noel" it's real human not 1st Prime Device (I don't believe in "get random soul" thanks to Boundary) Anyway, what I want to say when I had written "not real world" before: Did anyone play Final Fantasy X, Kingdom Hearts or Illusion of Gaia (maybe rhetorical question)??? There were similiar things: time loops, fight with god etc. Otherwise in other games too like Legacy of Kain, even Matrix had some plot-twists like this. In FFX there was a city name Zanarkand: the real one was destroyed but the leader "Yu Yevon" created another one "Dream Zanarkand" directly from inhabitants' memories. This leader it's final boss. What happened when we had destroy him? Yep -> the city had disappeared, even our playable hereos. Hope I won't see ending like this in BB.
Ogiga99 Posted March 17, 2016 Posted March 17, 2016 24 minutes ago, Shinhwa said: Act 3 is announced for March 30th, 2016 Awesome! We finally get to hear the last line from Rachel. My Japanese isn't great so correct me if I'm wrong and forgive me if I'm out of place for posting this but putting it together with Zedar's previous translation we seems to get this. I: This is a purge towards the people from god. Don’t get in the way… observer. R: A purge? Don’t make me laugh. The thing you’re doing is only a massacre. Even if this world returns to nothingness, that is the truth. I: The possibilities that people is possessing is inviting the world into ruin. Who was it that excavated his armor? Who was it that tried to contact god? No matter which age, doesn’t everything begins with miserable desires. R: I won’t deny it. People was always foolish. … but even so, I believe. That the possibilities that people possesses, which you are denying, will cut open the future. I: Is that your choice. R: Right. It’s mine and also “theirs” choice. Even if the world for sure is getting closer to ruin… The people will find with the path they should take their own hands. I: … then you should also, wish that desire of yours to the azure. And then inside the true despair that arrives, greet the time of demise… You human who was an observer before. (new) R: Even so he will not give up. That's correct, isn't it Ragna?
Yoshirocks92 Posted March 17, 2016 Posted March 17, 2016 28 minutes ago, Tokkan said: It's actually March 31st... Now we'll be getting some insight for this in two weeks from tomorrow. :D
JustaMaskedFreak Posted March 17, 2016 Posted March 17, 2016 Still, no opening yet... maybe it can give some hints and some CGs to discuss...
Toxin45 Posted March 17, 2016 Posted March 17, 2016 So yeah the replacement blue central character is Ragna and it comes out on the last day of March
kylehyde Posted March 17, 2016 Posted March 17, 2016 Not much to go by with that trailer, wasn't that pretty much the preview of Act 3 we got for beating Act 2. Except for the addition of Rachel's last words I don't see anything new
Ogiga99 Posted March 17, 2016 Posted March 17, 2016 16 minutes ago, kylehyde said: Not much to go by with that trailer, wasn't that pretty much the preview of Act 3 we got for beating Act 2. Except for the addition of Rachel's last words I don't see anything new This is the trailer at the end of Izanami's Act II. We've just gotten a proper of video where we can actually hear what they are saying. Rachel's line is only new from our perspective since it inexplicably isn't subtitled and the recording we got before had all the sound drowned out. They did the same thing in Act I with Nine's Arcade so it's no surprise. We should be getting the Act III opening soon anyway.
Kenji Harima Posted March 17, 2016 Posted March 17, 2016 18 minutes ago, Ogiga99 said: This is the trailer at the end of Izanami's Act II. We've just gotten a proper of video Yes because the first one was like this -> However in both version Inazami's Astral Heat it's creepy like hell. I am interesting in one thing -> If an arcade version has been is in the Japan since November 2015 than some people probably have seen all Act stories. How does it work? Can someone explain? It depends on arcade version or Japanese players just don't want to spoil anything so we need to wait for official movies ? Anyway now we are sure that Ragna will regain his memory.
Chaoschao222 Posted March 17, 2016 Author Posted March 17, 2016 Nesica is a arcade cab system that can be updated. CF has been out for months, but all of the content is not actually available. Act III does not exist on any Nesica cab currently, thus nobody has seen anything from it. When Act III releases, CF will be updated through Nesica, and all the cabs will then have Act III Arcade route as well as the various other new features being added.
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