Ogiga99 Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 5 hours ago, 1337 H@x0r said: Well... I'd like to point out that Ragna did not become a full Black Beast in his CS Bad Ending, he became a semi-Black Beast like Arakune but on a whole different level thanks to his Azure Grimoire. Remember that the real Black Beast exists in the deeps of the boundary and that the one we see characters turn into is actually a manifestation of the damn thing, it's similar to how Hakumen manifests his body at different levels depending of the power used to summon him. When Touya turns into the Black Beast, it's so weak that a single strong fighter like Es or Sechs can kill it, however, when Nu and Ragna fuse into one it's so powerful that all the world armed with Ars Magus is necessary to defeat it. What Ragna turns into in his CS Bad Ending is something in between. It still wipes out a significant portion of the world but it takes only a weakened Hakumen, a crippled Jubei and Noel instead of the fully powered Six Heroes to bring an end to it's rampage. In regards to Ragna being a male PFD, I don't think it's the case. PFDs or Murakumo Units were designed to survive interaction with the boundary yet Ragna had to be shielded by Tsukuyomi when crossing it towards the past. Him being an artificial human is high likely though, given that Saya was modified to be Izanami's vessel and that Jin was modified to be SEIGI's vessel, I wouldn't be surprised if Relius mixed up their genes (squick) to create an artificial human meant to be Terumi's vessel. Considering that Ragna's original hatred for him was strong enough to keep the bastard alive without a body, it's plausible that he, ironically, had been conceived with such purpose in mind. No, Ragna became a full Black Beast, the narration flat out says the Black Beast returned and another Dark War occurred (although shorter because humanity was ready). Where are you getting this from? The only thing that actually draws on the Black Beast from the Boundary is the Original Grimoire. The other ones are completely separate entities with no connection. They are not summoning it, otherwise how could it leave behind its own corpse? Every single Nox Nine created had the potential to become its own Black Beast. The ways of becoming a Black Beast vary significantly. The reason Touya's was so weak is because Es was able to kill him before the transformation was complete. Touya probably would have become just as bad if given the time. As said above, it doesn't just take them, it's simply that humanity already has Ars Magus and is much stronger and was able to more swiftly deal with the threat. It was more about the level of humanity as a whole than the few characters fighting. I will concede that Ragna needed the Tsukuyomi to travel through the Boundary. However, we don't know if that was meant to just protect his body, protect his mind, or possibly even to prevent the Cauldron from smelting him into a Black Beast when he dives in. It's never been said that Jin was modified to become a vessel for the Power of Order. The Power of Order seems to choose its host on its own and I doubt it could be artificially induced. Plus, since Relius is heavily hinted to have been connected to the lab Jubei found the three of them in, why would he create a vessel for the Power of Order when that would only hinder his plans? They have no connection to a Terumi vessel. Not only could Relius already create them (he made Kazuma before the Black Beast was unleashed) but a key component of them is that they have to be extremely close to Terumi in mind and soul, which Ragna certainly isn't. Did Relius plan for Jubei to rescue the kids? He's not psychic and even Terumi wouldn't know it would happen in the first loop so Terumi making Ragna hate him seems like more of a side-effect of recovering Saya than a deliberate move. 4 hours ago, Luminos564 said: Honestly, I think that "something" which was made from the stolen remains of Nu-13 at the time is probably key to most of these questions. Or it could be a whole new Plot McGuffin that overcomplicates the whole process to another level. Whatever the case, a Black Beast is seen in Es' stage and I'd bet bottom dollar that it'll be important come console release, if only because it would need to explain most of the mysteries surrounding the Black Beast, Ragna, the Murakumos and the rest. My personal theory is that Terumi used Nu to create the Azure Grimoire that would be used to make Hazama's body. Reason being only Terumi can make the Grimoire so even if Relius made Hazama's body, he would need an Azure Grimoire from Terumi and it would be impossible for Terumi to make the Grimoire that would become his vessel if he didn't have a vessel to let him physically make the Grimoire in the first place. Therefore I guess he made it at this point, which is the only time he had a vessel and freedom to create it. Nu would probably be able to provide him with the tools to improve on his prototype. 1 hour ago, NoelChan101 said: What if the OPFD was called Saya??? I mean Izanami got pretty upset when Noato called her Saya. Just a thought really. Considering the OPFD even gaining a soul in the first place was unprecedented and it was made to be a soulless doll, I doubt the scientists bothered to give it a name. 59 minutes ago, Luminos564 said: Added to the last bit, why have we never asked ourselves: who are his mommy and daddy? And if he was not born naturally to human parents, then who/what created him? It's a bit weird that we're this far into the game and this sort of thing was not ever brought up before. Especially considering how drenched in anime tropes Blazblue actually is. We know he refers to himself as Jin (biological) brother when Tsubaki pops the question, but how certain of this can he and in turn, the audience, be? Memories are rather easily manipulated in this series so while he may believe that to be the case, the truth might not be so. So what can we describe him? We know he has a human shape and skeleton. He certainly needs to eat, drink, breathe and he definitely doesn't take well to being stabbed, slashed and pummeled with large metal objects. But then again so did XBlaze's Touya (CE) and he was never human to begin with. Just the Original Grimoire given shape from the wish of a distraught young lady. Rachel's plea to promise her that he would always fight on "as a human" is also somewhat odd. Normally you could take it to mean that she doesn't want him to lose his humanity (no doubt by turning into a Black Beast) but at the same time, you could make claim that she wants him to remain as he is now, as opposed to "what he might have been before". P.S: Also, this is kinda off-tangent but in the timeline where Rachel bit him, what were half-vampire Ragna's powers? I assume this is the Wheel of Fortune drama story but I don't really know much about it. One theory I've heard is that Relius is the father of the three, since he is implied to be connected to the lab Jubei found them in and thus had a role in their creation. They all do have blonde hair after all. Whether any of the three were human to begin with and biologically related or are considered siblings because they were together from creation is unknown. From what we know all we can say is that we can most likely call him an "artificial human." Considering the point is made about Noel that she is no less of a person even if she was made as a "doll," Rachel telling him to live as a human probably just means that he should consider himself human and live as one regardless of his origins. Rachel bit Ragna in the first timeline. I don't think it's been 100% confirmed that the Wheel of Fortune is the first timeline, just that the Jin who canonically popped out of the Boundary in 2099 to always become Hakumen comes from that timeline. Theoretically this could have been from any number in the loop as long as it could get outside but based on the nature of the loop, I think it's probable that Wheel of Fortune Jin appeared before the start of the loop in 2100 specifically because he comes from the first Phase. If that's the case, being bitten didn't give him any special powers and he was exactly the same as before. We can't say for certain that the rules of Naoto's vampirism apply to Ragna because Rachel and Raquel don't even seem to be the same type of creature. In fact all of the Alucard vampires seem to work differently from each other. At the very least, we know that Rachel didn't make a connection with Ragna to feed him her life force like Raquel did with Naoto. I'm pretty sure even if it was a different timeline than what we saw he had no powers and even if he did, it evidently didn't change anything.
1337 H@x0r Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 Well... 18 minutes ago, Ogiga99 said: No, Ragna became a full Black Beast, the narration flat out says the Black Beast returned and another Dark War occurred (although shorter because humanity was ready). Where are you getting this from? The only thing that actually draws on the Black Beast from the Boundary is the Original Grimoire. The other ones are completely separate entities with no connection. They are not summoning it, otherwise how could it leave behind its own corpse? Every single Nox Nine created had the potential to become its own Black Beast. The ways of becoming a Black Beast vary significantly. The reason Touya's was so weak is because Es was able to kill him before the transformation was complete. Touya probably would have become just as bad if given the time. As said above, it doesn't just take them, it's simply that humanity already has Ars Magus and is much stronger and was able to more swiftly deal with the threat. It was more about the level of humanity as a whole than the few characters fighting. I will concede that Ragna needed the Tsukuyomi to travel through the Boundary. However, we don't know if that was meant to just protect his body, protect his mind, or possibly even to prevent the Cauldron from smelting him into a Black Beast when he dives in. It's never been said that Jin was modified to become a vessel for the Power of Order. The Power of Order seems to choose its host on its own and I doubt it could be artificially induced. Plus, since Relius is heavily hinted to have been connected to the lab Jubei found the three of them in, why would he create a vessel for the Power of Order when that would only hinder his plans? They have no connection to a Terumi vessel. Not only could Relius already create them (he made Kazuma before the Black Beast was unleashed) but a key component of them is that they have to be extremely close to Terumi in mind and soul, which Ragna certainly isn't. Did Relius plan for Jubei to rescue the kids? He's not psychic and even Terumi wouldn't know it would happen in the first loop so Terumi making Ragna hate him seems like more of a side-effect of recovering Saya than a deliberate move. I get it from the fact Ragna did not become the huge ass eight-headed dragon which tore the world apart, he became a humanoid and weaker beast but who was still strong enough to bring a lot of devastation. Humanity being stronger and more prepared my ass, they lacked 3 of the Six Heroes while the other 3 were nerfed and this not to mention Terumi and Relius controlled the only organized world powers which would hardly cooperate to stop the Black Beast like humanity did during the Dark War. You can call it another Dark War but the being which caused the first was observably stronger than the one which caused a potential second. As for Jin and Saya, Relius experimented on them and that man can do the impossible just to satiate his own curiosity. Jin becoming the vessel for the Power of Order is a unique event, there are no known other characters both past and present which came to fully embody it like he did. Makoto and Tsubaki shows a little of that power and it can manifest into crystal form under certain circumstances but nothing comes remotely close to what Jin is capable of. He might not have planned for it and it could have been a freak success but Relius experiments certainly factor in how Jin came to display his unique powers. I joked about Ragna being created to be Terumi's vessel but given that Jubei rescued the trio before Relius finished his modifications it would surprise me if Ragna was to Hazama what "Noel" was to Nu, an artificial being which aquired a soul and personality completely different than intended due to interruptions in it's creation. Let me also remind you that Relius has the knowledge to create a freaking new master unit and unlike Terumi who relies too much on save scumming, he actually arranged his plans with Xanatho's levels of antecipation. Relius didn't gain the knowledge from 70.000+ loops, he just put information together in whichever timeline he was in and quickly devised a strategy to reach his goals from sheer intelect alone. Do not underestimate Relius in the foresight department, if CF shows anything is that even when completely ruined he can rethink his strategy and return like a phoenix to the top of the chess game.
BlazGearRegalia Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 I have a few questions: Why did Noel cast away Mu again? Where's Makoto again?
Kenji Harima Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 1 hour ago, BlazGearRegalia said: Why did Noel cast away Mu again? She saw "something" (probably much or less potential future) inside the Black Beast and that view frightened her a lot so she not only sealed this memory but "cut off" Mu and finally everything what she saw or remembered thanks to Mu (Terumi for example). She rejected that "child" power (Mu-12) in goal to protect "that person". This "person" can be OPFD so: 1) She doesn't want "kill" this "person" or in better words open The Gate cause she knows that it will bring threat to this "person" (Remember that she still doesn't know that she is the Amaterasu.) 2) She doesn't want any power However in Mu-12 ending Izanami told Noel that she is the "Origin" so sooner or later Noel will know the truth. It's a step back in Noel personality development which we have in the CP but if sum all this arcade endings in the CF there will be another, similiar develope. Oh and I will add nice screen of potential vision this rejection: 1 hour ago, BlazGearRegalia said: Where's Makoto again? She is still somewhere in the Embryo -> we don't have her Act 3 but we know to this point that she is Entitled too and her desire it's to protect both Noel and Tsubaki.
Tokkan Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 About Makoto's act 3, there is info on it but only on her final boss. Makoto's final boss in Act 3 is a version of Izayoi who wants to kill Noel. Makoto doesn't believe such a version of Tsubaki could even be real but then Relius walks in says she is real and this is the result of a possibility being destroyed. Basically this Izayoi is from another world but that world no longer exists and she blames Noel for it.
Toxin45 Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 Oh so now we have this izayoi trying to kill noel great.
Vanagandr Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 Is that Izayoi by any chance the one from Hakumen's line? Oh wait, Nu killed her ... or did she? Blazblue characters aren't very good at staying dead...
BlazGearRegalia Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 51 minutes ago, Kenji Harima said: She saw "something" (probably much or less potential future) inside the Black Beast and that view frightened her a lot so she not only sealed this memory but "cut off" Mu and finally everything what she saw or remembered thanks to Mu (Terumi for example). She rejected that "child" power (Mu-12) in goal to protect "that person". This "person" can be OPFD so: 1) She doesn't want "kill" this "person" or in better words open The Gate cause she knows that it will bring threat to this "person" (Remember that she still doesn't know that she is the Amaterasu.) 2) She doesn't want any power However in Mu-12 ending Izanami told Noel that she is the "Origin" so sooner or later Noel will know the truth. It's a step back in Noel personality development which we have in the CP but if sum all this arcade endings in the CF there will be another, similiar develope. Oh and I will add nice screen of potential vision this rejection: Oh yeah, that's right, her desire is to have a normal life, right? Meanwhile, Mu became a wandering lost puppy, scared to death from the nightmare vision Izanami showed her, and not in any less danger than when she was with Noel. Oh, and Ragna did jump in and save her from Nu. Was it the right thing to reject her? According to Rachel, it was at the time. Noellers became the primary target for nearly everyone, Carl swoops in to try to kill her, but Nirvana intervenes. Hmm, now when your "sister" protects someone from you, clearly now would be a good time to think, "What am I doing? Is this right?" But then again, Carl was already down the road of the cold heartless bastard since day one of CT. Is there any way to show sympathy for him, cause I don't know any.
BlazGearRegalia Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 I doubt it'll be her CS bad ending of mind rape all over again. [Well, Act 3 Litchi had the reexperience of waking up from what was all a dream, but that nutcase's corruption is pretty deep at this point] Damn, Puppet Makoto? ... Yeah, that's creepy nightmare fuel... [Not as much as Izanami's Astral Heat and creepy face, but it's up there] Speaking of my favorite death girl, Izanami, I wonder if there's a way to [forcefully?] split her away from Saya.
Toxin45 Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 I am starting to think that Mu is losing her prominenance after Noel separated from her.
Cerotech Omega Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 3 hours ago, Tokkan said: About Makoto's act 3, there is info on it but only on her final boss. Makoto's final boss in Act 3 is a version of Izayoi who wants to kill Noel. Makoto doesn't believe such a version of Tsubaki could even be real but then Relius walks in says she is real and this is the result of a possibility being destroyed. Basically this Izayoi is from another world but that world no longer exists and she blames Noel for it. I was wondering if anything would come through. But that does beg one question: just what is the purpose of this fight? Did Relius lure the lost Izayoi and Makoto into conflict, or is Relius tailing Makoto and Izayoi happened upon her by chance? 1 hour ago, BlazGearRegalia said: I doubt it'll be her CS bad ending of mind rape all over again. [Well, Act 3 Litchi had the reexperience of waking up from what was all a dream, but that nutcase's corruption is pretty deep at this point] Damn, Puppet Makoto? ... Yeah, that's creepy nightmare fuel... [Not as much as Izanami's Astral Heat and creepy face, but it's up there] Speaking of my favorite death girl, Izanami, I wonder if there's a way to [forcefully?] split her away from Saya. You double-posted. I know it's probably a mistake on the system's behalf, but still, you might wanna do something about that. As for a repeat of THAT ending, I doubt it: in Relius' Act I, he let Makoto run off, then faced her in a rematch before she got rerouted to Izanami in her Act II. It may be that, after her Act II, he's trying to see if her power of order is innate or if she's strong enough to emulate it herself; it's not on Jin's level, to be fair, but that begs the question of where her soul's own power ends and the power of order begins.
Volt Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 3 hours ago, Vanagandr said: Is that Izayoi by any chance the one from Hakumen's line? Oh wait, Nu killed her ... or did she? Blazblue characters aren't very good at staying dead... Nope. That one is legit dead. No retcons. Not that it really matters, it was only a Tsubaki from one of the time loop shifts, no need to bring her back. (Unless she got an alternate Susano'o Unit. Then she and Hakumen can walk into the sunset bodying fools in the name of Seigi.) Anyway, is there a translation of The Wheel of Fortune? I want to confirm a theory. I believe that The Wheel of Fortune is the future of Phase 0, and Phase 0 is the first loop after the Original (Ragna+Nu) Black Beast fell into the cauldron. But I can't be sure without at least The Wheel of Fortune or the full Phase Shift novels (Especially 4.)
BlazGearRegalia Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 16 minutes ago, Cerotech Omega said: I was wondering if anything would come through. But that does beg one question: just what is the purpose of this fight? Did Relius lure the lost Izayoi and Makoto into conflict, or is Relius tailing Makoto and Izayoi happened upon her by chance? You double-posted. I know it's probably a mistake on the system's behalf, but still, you might wanna do something about that. As for a repeat of THAT ending, I doubt it: in Relius' Act I, he let Makoto run off, then faced her in a rematch before she got rerouted to Izanami in her Act II. It may be that, after her Act II, he's trying to see if her power of order is innate or if she's strong enough to emulate it herself; it's not on Jin's level, to be fair, but that begs the question of where her soul's own power ends and the power of order begins. If only there was a delete option, am I right? I quote Robo-Ky: SHIT HAPPENS I think Makoto's own soul overpowers her Power of Order. She seems more concerned about her friends rather than anything the Power of Ord- Wait, she's has a Power of Order!?
Volt Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 Just now, BlazGearRegalia said: If only there was a delete option, am I right? I quote Robo-Ky: SHIT HAPPENS I think Makoto's own soul overpowers her Power of Order. She seems more concerned about her friends rather than anything the Power of Ord- Wait, she's has a Power of Order!? It actually happens so often that people don't even really notice. Wonder what could be the cause though. I heard it happens more often with people who post from phones, but that doesn't make a lot of sense. Blazblue's Plot on the other hand... Yep, Makoto and Tsubaki are developing traces of Power of Seigi. It really shows things went downhill when you consider that it works as an anti-body and only started with Hakumen, then Jin got it by extension and now we got Makoto and Tsubaki (And Izayoi? Are they split?)
Volt Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 1 minute ago, Toxin45 said: Also Celica has the power of order. Oh yeah. She got it too, forgot that. See, shit's hitting the fan really bad now.
FKGunBlaze Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 Just now, Toxin45 said: Also Celica has the power of order. Specifically, Celica's very existence is part of the Power of Order, being born solely for the purpose of resisting seithr.
Vanagandr Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 The world must be really turning to shit if we need that many Counter Guardian people with Power of Order around. But seriously, what the hell is the Power of Order anyway? where is it come from? Everyone acknowledge it but everything about it seem pretty vague. I'm not sure even Archer Hakumen know the detail.
Kenji Harima Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 7 hours ago, BlazGearRegalia said: Oh, and Ragna did jump in and save her from Nu. Was it the right thing to reject her? According to Rachel, it was at the time. Speaking of my favorite death girl, Izanami, I wonder if there's a way to [forcefully?] split her away from Saya. 1) It was right "at this moment" (if we agree that "this moment" was inside the Black Beast) but next Rachel said (according to her Act 3's ending which you mentioned) that it's better to acknowledge this power cause Noel actually is enough strong to control it -> the force to slay the gods. However Noel deciced (much as Ragna) take her own path but still Rachel suggest her to rethink about it. I don't think it was good for our green eyed beautiful blonde girl to reject her cause Mu can be a powerful ally. Actually it seems that nobody care too much about -12- even as a tool which can be used. Mu still possess her tittle as "Kusanagi": not be "Eye..." anymore cause she will be probably able to open "The Gate" by herself but like we see she is still a threat for gods. She might be a factor or one of possibility to destroy Izanami apart from Lynchpin and Immortal Breaker by Izayoi: - Drive status is the one side but on the other Izanami is still a being who was born in straight line from the god. 2) Speaking of Saya case it's really hard to tell. The way to finish Iznami like Terumi in CP isn't possible cause Hakumen "Time Killer" technique won't help: Izanami is unaffected by time. It's also depends if Relius really created her or only customized (btw. I don't like the idea that he might be responsible for creation of blonde-sibling cause it's bringing a really dangerous theory that all events since CT to almost half of CP were "staged" or they were "calculated risk" for example both Terumi and Relius could knew what A will do if B incident going to happen. Too much explanation for this post so I will skip it). However I will point two people who are might be able to split her: A) Relius who I mentioned before (unfortunately he won't help, we know that) B) Kokonoe (she is really fast-learner so I won't be surprised if she get an idea how to manipulate/transfer souls like Relius) However I am afraid that even if Saya back she won't stay alive too long -> it seems that something happens to her body cause Relius was controlling it on his Arc 2 ending. She seems to be also more like a doll now, a real one without any solid body structure (but it's a guess based on her behave in-game nor the story). 5 hours ago, Toxin45 said: I am starting to think that Mu is losing her prominenance after Noel separated from her. Maybe but I think that she has become much more interesting since they are separated -> she was only Noel's "ace up one's sleeve" but now it seems that she took first step to find her own awareness. Of course in these Act stories she really wants to know why Noel rejected her like she is missing of or something like that. It isn't a huge development but on the other hand she is definitely more collected than Noel now and far away from her typical "Hate" state. Even Izanami manipulation (cause I doubt that all her words are reality, more like a possibility) on Act 2 didn't impact her too much. I also add that it's quite funny how many characters are confused between her and Noel.
BlazGearRegalia Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 I agree, Mu could make one hell of an ally, if anyone could just get her out her current predicament and keep her from falling into enemy hands. For the most part, I do applaud to Noel for going on her own path, but, still, I do agree with Rachel that she ought to rethink about rejecting Mu. Well, I'm already aware of Hakumen's Time Killer technique not working on Izanami. [The creepy lady already can't feel death cause she's the death goddess] So, now it really is falling on to Ragna to get to the Azure if he wants his sister back. I was kinda hoping we could simply just separate Izanami from Saya, but if Saya is without a solid body structure, then so much for that, and I'm not sure I want to trust Kokopuffs to fix her. Oh, speaking of the Murakumos, where's Lamb-chops again?
Kenji Harima Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 9 minutes ago, NoelChan101 said: Where is Relius act 2 Here you have a summary And if you are interested in rest of them there are on the first page
1337 H@x0r Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 Well... Saya doesn't need an exorcism so much as she needs a new body like the one Nine got. Maybe this where Mu comes to play, she will kill Izanami but rather than fusing back with Noel she will fuse with Saya to restore her body. Since Mu is a clone of Saya there shouldn't be any compatibility issues. PS: Still haunted by toughts of puppet Makoto.
BlazGearRegalia Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 Nine has a new body? Spoiler She looks the same to me, minus the black sclera and sharp fingertips. [How does that not hurt to have your lovely legs poked at by your sharp fingers?] Speaking of our sexy [and crazy] witch, what the heck is that monstrosity she can summon!? Might I recommend a nice warm cup of Izanami? Spoiler Why must you be so creepy, Izzy~? [This was from the Act 3 Preview] You know, I actually wonder what Izanami is gonna do in Story Mode. Will she try to go after Ragna? I don't know about anyone else, but for the guy who has been hunted down by nearly the entire cast, he seems to be having it easier than before. [But seeing that Story Mode illustration of Nine standing on his head, I have a feeling he's gonna have more hell than before]
Toxin45 Posted April 28, 2016 Posted April 28, 2016 (edited) Well everyone is now going after Noel and ragna is going to that gate thing to get some power boost or something. That demon is called kagutsuchi Edited April 28, 2016 by Toxin45 Well I need to add that.
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