[Accent Core] Order-Sol Matchup Thread

[Hatred Edge]

Hmmm... I wonder if Rock It is active long enough to punish? I know when I use Sol and a Potemkin Back dashes trying to bait me, I Grand Viper to punish. Rock It covers a lot of distance. And Potemkin's FB( I assume the ground one) can be thrown. You should FD brake and use some empty jump ins.

[excelence]

i'm thinking of 2p-ing his attempt on PB and connect it with 6k if he do BDB =| and his FB... i swear last week is the first time i got pawned by his FB so badly ... maybe i'm playing to aggresive =(

[Tsak]

i'm thinking of 2p-ing his attempt on PB and connect it with 6k if he do BDB =|

and his FB... i swear last week is the first time i got pawned by his FB so badly ... maybe i'm playing to aggresive =(

are you playing against computer potemkin?

because he has too be the worst ever

Potemkin + reading your inputs = tooooooooo many PBs

[excelence]

no... some of my friend use a decent Potemkin ... and as far as i can remember the last time i go against AI is when i got my copy of /\C last year lol

[reaVer]

Yeah, but I said you do 6K after doing a move that whiffs due to his backdash. That 6K won't work if you do it before he backdashes, then even on block the recovery is rather horrid.

[excelence]

missread that sry

[lars]

honestly now i got more vs expwith o-sol and some of his matches are hella hard faust sucks, axl is worse and venom seems an impossible match up for o-sol. to come close to venom u must 1 play to r-type with his ball formation(slow of course) 2 escape to far s when u dash, 6p when u jump, 6hs can beat anything 3 even if u did block one of those moves, u'll be sended far from him 4 do all that shit again of u're hit as for a conclusion a venom match is really

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Faust and Axl can be pretty bad, but I don't have much trouble with Venom for some reason. Maybe I have yet to fight a truly expert Venom but honestly he just doesn't seem as bad as HOS's other bad matchups. Ball formations are annoying but he needs space to set them up so if you are aggressive you can prevent that. 6P is a huge pain, but 2D goes under his far S pretty easily for CH into combo and 6HS is a bit slow, you have ways to deal with it.

[Tsak]

Axl makes me feel really bad inside its like trying to fight someone who has an answer to just about everything and doesn't have to get close to use them going air against him is like suicide and fighting him on the ground isn't easy either definitely a bad match-up Faust is kinda like Axl except instead of chains and kamas its random items i feel GB helps alot vs faust i feel when i fight Faust i try to force him to go air and deal with him there since fighting him on the ground is a very painful experience ( 2H > 5P / repeat is hella annoying) SV helps too since his hitbox is really awkward you can catch some of his pokes with it

[Sesshyru]

(thanks to POscrub, page 26)

Order Sol

* Average damage B: Varies depending on charge level and CH's, in the corner, you can combo off his throw.

* Max damage B: Level 3 moves, Fafnir CH combos

* Pokes D: 2S, S, j.P, j.HS. HOS, by hook or crook, needs to get close somehow, or he can't start anything.

* Pressure/Lockdown B: Generally fast, has a low jump, Charge Cancel lockdown. Sadly though, Order Sol lacks reach, so it's hard to lockdown. [Ed note: Hard to keep it going, once Order Sol has pushed himself out to midrange]

* Mixup B: Actual followups are dependent on tension, Charge level, and/or CH, but in terms of number of mixup options, he has a lot.

* Okizeme B: Gunblaze FRC, crossup Gunblaze, Fuzzy guard mixups, 6K, 2HS, and more. However, a lot of these options can be reacted to.

* Breaking out of pressure B: Storm Viper, Gunblaze, etc. If HOS has lvl 3, the opponent will likely be on the look out for SV, so watch out for fake meaties and distance tricks. [safe meaties that due to hitbox/spacing, SV won't hit]

* Against ground A: j.P for stuff from the side, j. H is strong against stuff from below

* Against air B: j.P. Usual grounded AA options are pre-emptive 5HS, Storm Viper, Gunblaze. Note: people in the know can CH you for trying to SV, which puts HOS in deep trouble.

* Defense: B+: Takes noticeably less damage than regular Sol. [Ed note: Sol is 1.00 with guts 1, HOS is 0.96. with guts 2.]

* In general C: Has poor reach. Without charge levels or tension, mixups are unreliable. Focusing on charging up, means missed Okizeme opportunities, but you can't really afford to play without charge. At charge level 1, Order Sol's opponent has little to fear.

* Overall: B

* Good matchups unknown: Don't think he has any particularly good matchups that stand out.

* Bad matchups: Slayer, Axl. Slayer has range, and lots of other stuff on Order Sol. Axl is a bad matchup because Order Sol's low jump often ends up in him getting hit anyways and eating a combo.

How up to date is this? And what is "Guts 2"?

[Tsak]

well i guess this is the most up to date thing about him but its just a japanese player's opinion Guts is when the character is really really low on life how much damage they take more guts the less damage

[Hintalove]

I think hos' acceptable bnb lvl has gone up considerably since that post's creation, but it still is true for the most part. While hos has threatening damage in some situations, and decent to even good oki options, his risk/reward ratio is no where near as good as say slayer or jam. get comfortable blocking, because sadly hos' only answer to a lot of things is going to be IB > SV/something risky. I would like to say however that while the slayer match is fairly stifling, I wouldn't rank it as one of the worst. He still has to get into hos's sweet spot to run his game on you, so any slip ups can potentialy turn into opportunities to take initiative. I would say pot is fairly bad, as well as typical good zoning characters like test/faust/eddie. Axl actually fairly easy to get in on compared to other zoners as long as you respect his chains. It's one of those matchups that will teach you of the evils of jumping.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I think part of what makes the Slayer matchup annoying is that he has more answers for your options when you put him in a scenario compared to other characters. For example, say you make your opponent block something that pushes you out a little far and gives you a small frame advantage, like lvl1 Rock It. Against most characters, you can threaten with a Fafnir here and it discourages them from trying to poke you to prevent you from rushing on them, this gives you a slight positional advantage that you wouldn't have otherwise and lets you rush in since they will be more motivated to take a passive action such as jumping away or backdashing or even just blocking; all of these are advantageous to your main strategy, which is to RTSD. Now Slayer has two options that shut your Fafnir down in this situation. He can 5K, which is practically no risk to him and CHs your Fafnir, giving him free whatever. He can also do 2HS, which evades your Fafnir in this situation and CHs you for major pain. You can do an instant j.P to evade both of these, but in the case of the 5K, he recovers so fast that he may actually be able to 2S you before you can get your j.HS out to hit him. 2HS of course is a free hit for you. It should also be noted that unless you buffer Fafnir so it comes out immediately after you recover from the Rock It, he can do 2S and this will beat out both your j.P and your Fafnir options (this hurts either way since CH 2S gives free 2HS -> BBU on grounded hit and free death juggles on air hit). Buffering Fafnir from Rock It in this manner is not only very difficult (due to Action Charge command overlap), but it also means you are committing somewhat and you can't be as flexible with your midscreen game. The easiest answer to this situation is to just wait a half second or so. If you see the 2S, you can CH-punish it in recovery with Fafnir, which is horrible for Slayer. If you see the 2HS and you have quick reflexes, you can do a late-timed Fafnir which will evade the 2HS and hit Slayer. 5K will whiff, but this isn't a huge deal for Slayer, yet another reason why 5K is his best option here.

[GreasyGyro718]

hey I thought we had a matchup sub forum...

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

lol that doesn't mean this thread is suddenly worthless or off-limits for discussion. If anything there is always the option to copy-paste stuff into the other threads.

[reaVer]

Now Slayer has two options that shut your Fafnir down in this situation. He can 5K, which is practically no risk to him and CHs your Fafnir, giving him free whatever. He can also do 2HS, which evades your Fafnir in this situation and CHs you for major pain. You can do an instant j.P to evade both of these, but in the case of the 5K, he recovers so fast that he may actually be able to 2S you before you can get your j.HS out to hit him. 2HS of course is a free hit for you.

It should also be noted that unless you buffer Fafnir so it comes out immediately after you recover from the Rock It, he can do 2S and this will beat out both your j.P and your Fafnir options (this hurts either way since CH 2S gives free 2HS -> BBU on grounded hit and free death juggles on air hit). Buffering Fafnir from Rock It in this manner is not only very difficult (due to Action Charge command overlap), but it also means you are committing somewhat and you can't be as flexible with your midscreen game.

The easiest answer to this situation is to just wait a half second or so. If you see the 2S, you can CH-punish it in recovery with Fafnir, which is horrible for Slayer. If you see the 2HS and you have quick reflexes, you can do a late-timed Fafnir which will evade the 2HS and hit Slayer. 5K will whiff, but this isn't a huge deal for Slayer, yet another reason why 5K is his best option here.

Against 2H and 5K, I'm pretty sure you can IAD.H into whatever, I'm not sure about the CH state being active or not(most likely not). Against 2S you would sweep, but 2H is too threatening for that, so you should wait or jump backwards(and dash forward after) if you expect such a thing.

It also has to be noted that by definition l1Ri puts you in a range you don't really like. Next to that, you are limited in your abilities and you're forced to know what your opponent will do against you to counter him properly. So generally this mixup shouldn't be used as OS's mainstay of things. To be quite honest, nothing really should anyways, but that's OS for ya:P

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Against 2H and 5K, I'm pretty sure you can IAD.H into whatever, I'm not sure about the CH state being active or not(most likely not).

This would work but it is generally much riskier and is not as flexible as simply doing j.P. If you do j.P and he does 5K, you still have options like double jump to bait the anti air, backdash away, come down with j.HS, etc.

Against 2S you would sweep, but 2H is too threatening for that, so you should wait or jump backwards(and dash forward after) if you expect such a thing.

2D is another option but as noted, it loses to 2HS and even though it evades 5K, you basically have the same situation as j.P, but fewer options. j.P can also cover a forward jump from Slayer (he anticipates Fafnir and jumps or IADs forward to try for a CH j.HS, you j.P and hit him for a short aircombo), which 2D does not cover.

In any case, if your execution is proper, 2S is not a problem (at worst you will trade and that is still massively in your favor since you will only get a minor stun and he will get CH launched). This is more or less just a warning to make sure your execution is tight.

It also has to be noted that by definition l1Ri puts you in a range you don't really like. Next to that, you are limited in your abilities and you're forced to know what your opponent will do against you to counter him properly. So generally this mixup shouldn't be used as OS's mainstay of things. To be quite honest, nothing really should anyways, but that's OS for ya:P

I understand that you are in a position that is not ideal, the point of this mixup is to CREATE an ideal position from one that is not necessarily good for you. If you work the mixup well enough, you create a scenario where your opponent is being passive (backdashing or jumping away to evade your Fafnir) and this instantly puts you back in the driver's seat as far as offense since you can just dash up to your opponent and get right back in your ideal range.

This is part of what makes the mixup as good as it is. The situation appears to be starkly against you since long range is not HOS's specialty. This encourages your opponent to be more aggressive (poking to keep you from closing distance) and initially it seems safe for them to do so. You can take advantage of this imagined advantage to really hurt your opponent and encourage them to be more passive, which allows you to more easily establish your preferred range. Slayer is one of the few characters where this is not as viable since he has many more options to counter you, this is why I brought it up in context of why the Slayer matchup is more difficult for HOS. Against many characters, you can simply Fafnir until they start to run away from you and then you have the freedom to dash or jump at them to close distance.

[reaVer]

Or they IAD over your fafnir and punish you with a 200dmg combo. Remember that whatever you do after l1Ri counters only one thing, fafnir and 2S deal with counter attackers, j.P deals with jumpers and dashin with backdashes and guarders. Even the IAD.H is a special case where you are evading your opponent's evasive properties. If you guessed wrong, the consequences can be disastrous. What the move actually is good for is to very easily spot what your opponent intends to do if the situation becomes neutral(given they aren't smartasses that mix that up too, but then there's several other methods). So the moment you've executed your first Ri, you should look for jump, guard, counter attack etc etc. From there on, if you get in a situation that is fairly neutral, you know where to counter. And by doing this you'll keep your opponent in a death lock which he can't escape. At the same time, l1Ri as a setup can be used to cash in on free damage, say you know that someone tends to go for a counter attack in neutral or fairly neutral situations, then you enforce that situation with Ri and you get your free damage if your opponent does indeed comply, which can go up to like 250 or so. If you for example look at the KZO vs Ogawa fight, you'll notice that KZO started vipering, fafniring and even use Ri where it would normally not be such a smart idea. But if you look closely at the first round start, Ogawa always attacked when he could, in a way he was just a button masher:keke: . KZO cashed in whenever he could and even enforced Ogawa to keep doing that by throwing him after the first SV AC FRC.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Or they IAD over your fafnir and punish you with a 200dmg combo. Remember that whatever you do after l1Ri counters only one thing, fafnir and 2S deal with counter attackers, j.P deals with jumpers and dashin with backdashes and guarders. Even the IAD.H is a special case where you are evading your opponent's evasive properties. If you guessed wrong, the consequences can be disastrous.

Again, this is ONLY in the Slayer matchup and that's the only reason I brought it up in the first place, please read more carefully before you answer like this. The average character who tries to IAD over your stuff isn't even going to get a good followup, you can actually GB them if you choose to dash forward and you see them IAD. They won't do this for the same reason that you wouldn't want to do your own IAD.

Again, the only reason I brought this up was to point out that what is an otherwise effective tactic for HOS against most characters is much more difficult to use against Slayer and this contributes to the difficulty of the Slayer matchup. Even in this circumstance, you still see players using the tactic against Slayer players, kaqn used it quite a bit when he was still using HOS.

At the same time, l1Ri as a setup can be used to cash in on free damage, say you know that someone tends to go for a counter attack in neutral or fairly neutral situations, then you enforce that situation with Ri and you get your free damage if your opponent does indeed comply, which can go up to like 250 or so.

Dude, have you just not been reading at all? This is the EXACT scenario I've been describing here and you're sitting there at first telling me it's too risky, and now you're repeating it and saying it's good?

If you for example look at the KZO vs Ogawa fight, you'll notice that KZO started vipering, fafniring and even use Ri where it would normally not be such a smart idea. But if you look closely at the first round start, Ogawa always attacked when he could, in a way he was just a button masher:keke: . KZO cashed in whenever he could and even enforced Ogawa to keep doing that by throwing him after the first SV AC FRC.

This has nothing to do with what we're discussing.

[LM_Akira]

Note in this vid here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INeaCnVrvTk

at 2.51, Slayer actually just forward dashes to avoid the Fafnir after Lv1 RI, as ANOTHER option to think about in this situation.

[Sesshyru]

I have noticed that Slayer uses that warp cancle crap and just dodges everything for free. But I have also noticed that slayer eats a LOT of RI and GB. You just gota be patent, and with HOS that is hard.

[reaVer]

Slayer has a good follow up for IAD.H, so I don't entirely see the point of what you just said. And if Sol gets that IAD, you WILL eat 200 damage thanks to the sidewinder loop. Potemkin could hammerfall into a combo. May can fuck you up, Johnny, probably some others so you should reconsider what you just said. And you're reading half I said, using the move as a staple move for mixups is a BAD idea. Using it to cash in on free damage is a GOOD idea. If you look at kaqn and KZO, you'll notice that they even do whole matches without the move(and there's other reasons for that too). But generally, the idea of being able to mixup your opponent is generally false because he can do too much at that range and you can't counter multiple options at the same time.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I really don't get what you're trying to argue here for. You're saying the mixup is a bad idea but you describe the exact same situation and call it a good idea. Punishing someone for attacking out of a "neutral" situation? That's exactly what's happening in the scenario I've described. Then you post about how Slayer has too many ways around it and that was the exact point I was trying to make with my first post. Seems like you're just arguing to argue at this point.

As for other characters, is it really a good idea for any character to randomly IAD at you because they think you might Fafnir? Fafnir is fast, you can't react to it in that manner. Now if they IAD and you dashed forward, you can usually GB and at worst, you'll both whiff entirely and be at a distance from each other (you get a free Charge out of this). They might even get CH by your GB and then you profit. If they do anything other than poke at you when you dash, you are going to be at a positional advantage, barring a few character-specifc techniques (Testament forward Beast, Potemkin Hammerfall) and even those techs have their weaknesses. Slayer just has the most "safe" options. 5K is hands down the best anti-Fafnir tool I've seen so far since it's practically no risk and very high reward depending on the situation (hitconfirm to DOT FRC for big damage).

But yeah, what was your point again?

[reaVer]

You're using it as a MIXUP, I'm saying YOU SHOULDN'T DO THAT. The situation is the SAME, the purpose is DIFFERENT. In my case you KNOW he's going to attack, in your case you HOPE he's going to attack. Then the IAD countering, "if you were running forward instead, ..." to bad we're not mind readers, if we were we wouldn't be needing this matchup thread to begin with. The problem is, before Ri ends, you already have to be dedicated to your intercept attempt, so if you were going to fafnir and your opponent is actually smart, he gets the IAD for free. The same way, if you expect such an IAD, all he has to do is AA you which can also lead to pretty heavy damage. This keeps going...

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

You're using it as a MIXUP, I'm saying YOU SHOULDN'T DO THAT. The situation is the SAME, the purpose is DIFFERENT. In my case you KNOW he's going to attack, in your case you HOPE he's going to attack.

lol you say this and then you post something like "too bad we're not mind readers", you realize how silly that sounds? There is no way to 100% know someone is going to attack, so regardless of trying to say my intent or "purpose" is different, the fact is that the situation is the the exact same and you're doing the exact same thing. The rest of it is just semantics. Naturally, the more in tune you are with your opponent's habits, the more successful this technique will be, but again, there is no way to 100% know your opponent is going to attack. Don't talk as if I would just throw out Fafnir without taking my opponent into account because I never stated this, naturally this type of play is never a good idea. The only 100% deals you get are when you are whiff punishing, since you can visually confirm that your opponent just attacked and missed and you have time to hit him before he can recover.

Then the IAD countering, "if you were running forward instead, ..." to bad we're not mind readers, if we were we wouldn't be needing this matchup thread to begin with. The problem is, before Ri ends, you already have to be dedicated to your intercept attempt, so if you were going to fafnir and your opponent is actually smart, he gets the IAD for free. The same way, if you expect such an IAD, all he has to do is AA you which can also lead to pretty heavy damage. This keeps going...

My point in saying this was that yes, if your opponent feels you are going to do Fafnir (and he has to feel, again, no way to 100% know) then yes, in a sense it is "guaranteed" or "free". But if you dash, you don't have to deal with it like that. The fact that using Fafnir forces them to do something like this means you are making them commit to something that is normally this really bad idea and you can cover it with just one option, you don't have to do anywhere near as much guesswork as they do. It goes something like this:

You: I just made them block my Rock It and have 25% meter, I can now Fafnir or dash forward and close distance/react to what they do to counter my Fafnir. If I guess right on the Fafnir I can deal a lot of damage but I might take a lot of damage if I guess wrong. If I dash forward and guess right I improve my position but if I guess wrong I might get hit and pushed out/comboed.

Here you have a simple 50/50 against most characters, it's pretty easy. After a few CH Fafnirs, most people will do anything BUT hit a button and thus the dashing in is a pretty safe bet, then you just have to pick the right choice against their counter option. Generally this is in your favor, some characters are an exception (again, Slayer, Testament, etc).

Most other characters: Ok I can't attack since if he Fafnirs I will eat a CH and lose 60%. If I backdash I can evade the Fafnir but if he dashes forward he will get in range for free. If I jump back, same scenario and I can't punish him for whiffing the Fafnir from that range. If I sit and block, I can't punish the Fafnir due to it's quick recovery and the range he's doing it at, if he dashes forward he gets in for free. If I jump/IAD towards him I can punish him for the Fafnir, but if he dashes then he can react to my jump with any one of his multiple anti-air options like j.P/SV/GB or airthrow me.

So as you can see, the other person has multiple options but most of them do not grant them a big reward and if they choose wrong in any of these situations, it's greatly to your benefit. You're taking what would normally be a difficult situation for HOS and using it to gain control of the match, and you're doing it with only two options (Fafnir or dash forward).