BBCF Izanami General

[-Seo]

Yeah, not sure how long exactly it takes for them to come back.

[Axiomatic]

17 hours ago, Moy_X7 said:

Does Izanami have to wait for her "purple triangle bits" to respawn before she can exit projectile mode? 

Yeah, it seems you have to commit to projectiles after they're used for a few moments. By my count, it takes between 2-3 seconds for the "bits" to respawn at least on one move (don't know if regeneration varies drastically if the move was 2D, 4D, 6D) since the Izanami's I've seen eat some moves after using their projectiles in neutral even though they had time to stance cancel into a block (from my experience using Johnny to go into a block after a blocked Mist Finer).

 

If you watch her animation, you need the "bits" to reform the circle, so I think thats why you need them to leave projectile mode.

 

 

Other ways to exit projectile mode:

When Izanami gets damaged, she wake ups in non-projectile mode. Likewise, if you use her spinning special attack, she exits projectile mode as well. I don't know if you have to wait for the "bits" to regenerate to use her the spinning special (63214D) though.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Axiomatic
Error

[Davo87]

Some Drive usage. On fireball oki, Drive > Ribcage gives access to Araragi - 63214D during the startup of ribcage.

Corner setup

Hitting sleepers.

On 3C

On 5C

On 5C

On j5D> 214B

63214D puts Izanami back into normal mode so its good. Do whatever you like.

[-Seo]

4 hours ago, Davo87 said:

Some Drive usage. On fireball oki, Drive > Ribcage gives access to Araragi - 63214D during the startup of ribcage.

Corner setup

Hitting sleepers.

On 3C

On 5C

On 5C

On j5D> 214B

63214D puts Izanami back into normal mode so its good. Do whatever you like.

Ahh nice, I was looking at ways of using Araragi on knockdown but was using 6B>5D>623B~214D. Was going about it all wrong :shot:

[MaximusMurkimus]

I used to main Aigis exclusively in P4A before moving on to Teddie/Yukiko/Marie, and had no problem switching modes, so maybe I'll have an easier time than I'll expect playing as her.

[Davo87]

https://youtu.be/eKLjHNBtagA?t=722

Wonder what caused her to get hit during ribcage. It did not look like it expired. Whats Naoto's move?

[GunBlazer]

22 hours ago, Davo87 said:

https://youtu.be/eKLjHNBtagA?t=722

Wonder what caused her to get hit during ribcage. It did not look like it expired. Whats Naoto's move?

That's Phantom Pain, the follow-up for Shift-Sway (Naoto's KOF-styled dodge). It's completely and absolutely unblockable.

[Axiomatic]

Yeah, gotta be careful when relying on ribcage (susanoo) for neutral since all unblockables bypass it. You can fish for the unblockable for mind games if you know they'll be tempted to throw theirs out during your ribcage window.

[-Seo]

Dunno if it was confirmed previously, but float 6B is still an overhead.

[Juraya]

On 10.2.2016 at 7:15 AM, Axiomatic said:

Yeah, gotta be careful when relying on ribcage (susanoo) for neutral

As far as I´ve seen this, I wouldnt use RIbcage in neutral at all. Every time an Izanami did this in a match, the opponent simply ran away from her and made her waste more than half of her barrier like that D: Honestly, I think it only should be used after knockdown, specially with P-Mode (how about P for Projectile and N for normal?) Araragi oki.

18 hours ago, -Seo said:

Dunno if it was confirmed previously, but float 6B is still an overhead.

Thats nice to hear. 6B was that move, where she like lunges at the opponent, right?

 

And personally I have some questions/thoughts about Izanami after watching a few matches:

1. In OD, does using the projectiles prevent you from using the followup moves, until the bits are restored again?
2. In OD, is it possible to use projectiles in blockstun? (I don´t think so, but won´t hurt to ask)
3. About her projectiles in general, do they disappear, when Iza gets hit/blocks/throw guarded?
4. Same Question about her Specials (Araragi, Fireball and when the bits circle around the enemy). When they are already active, do they disappear on Iza hit/block/throw guard?
5. Does her Timestop command grab have a superflash on startup?
 

[Axiomatic]

5 hours ago, Juraya said:

As far as I´ve seen this, I wouldnt use RIbcage in neutral at all. Every time an Izanami did this in a match, the opponent simply ran away from her and made her waste more than half of her barrier like that D: Honestly, I think it only should be used after knockdown, specially with P-Mode (how about P for Projectile and N for normal?) Araragi oki.
 

Heya,

I'd have to disagree about knock down only Ribcage, because its presents a lot of pressure in the corner during neutral when the opponent can't run. Unless the opponent has ready access to an unblockable (depending if they have meter or not etc) it can really complement Izanami's momentum for a corner carry combo, which she excels at. I do agree however that outside of corner situations, the move has too limited a window to effectively use.  

I don't really know what should be set for the notation, but the more seasoned people on Dustloop often mention how we adopt the Japanese choice in notation rather than coming up with our own (see the Nine discussion on what to refer to her spells as). I try to call it whatever the other person refers to it in discussion though. I've been keeping a running list of the different terms for the descriptions, so I'll add P-Mode and N-Mode to it until we get a definitive terminology. In the combos though, I often prefer to write out everything to avoid ambiguity as much as possible due to this lack in defined notation.

Quote

Thats nice to hear. 6B was that move, where she like lunges at the opponent, right?

Check the combo thread for a picture of 6B since I'm not sure what move you refer to as a lunge, since even me and Davo87 refer to the normals differently.

Quote

And personally I have some questions/thoughts about Izanami after watching a few matches:

1. In OD, does using the projectiles prevent you from using the followup moves, until the bits are restored again?
2. In OD, is it possible to use projectiles in blockstun? (I don´t think so, but won´t hurt to ask)
3. About her projectiles in general, do they disappear, when Iza gets hit/blocks/throw guarded?
4. Same Question about her Specials (Araragi, Fireball and when the bits circle around the enemy). When they are already active, do they disappear on Iza hit/block/throw guard?
5. Does her Timestop command grab have a superflash on startup?

3. If Izanami is using her P-mode projectiles, then she wouldn't be able to block when they are out. Haven't seen what happens in OD though. There is also this 45 degree attack that disappears on hit during OD, but I'm not sure what move it is (one of the follow ups?):

https://youtu.be/S4F2Xc5lh7k?t=522 

If it disappears in OD, it definitely disappears without it. (I'm pretty sure all attacks using her "bits"/magatama count as genuine projectiles rather than the kind Hakumen can't use his sword on but it would be nice to have confirmation so all her follow ups would be projectile attacks)

4. Yes, at least the circling projectile one (41236D?) does. See Celica when she hits Izanami during the circling phase of the move but before the move actually gains a hitbox via the lasers. 

https://youtu.be/eOV0j0QtmB0

Not sure about the Arargi or Fireball, since people often need to block Aragi as it comes out directly in front of Izanami and Fireball is not usually used in neutral, only in combos due to the start up and the way it is telegraphed. 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2016 by Axiomatic
Addition

[Juraya]

Thanks for answering some of my questions.

It´s a pity that they disappear though. I was hopening for sth along the lines of it being like Rachel CT lobelias, and that they continue
to fly with a hitbox :P At least some of the moves, but that would be a bit retarted, I know.

On another note, can we do P-Mode Arargi into Fireball RC in the corner for oki?
Like using the fireball animation for some ambigious bullshit? :D

And was timestop even used in any active match so far?

[Axiomatic]

9 hours ago, Juraya said:

On 2/11/2016 at 3:32 AM, Juraya said:

And personally I have some questions/thoughts about Izanami after watching a few matches:

2. In OD, is it possible to use projectiles in blockstun? (I don´t think so, but won´t hurt to ask)
5. Does her Timestop command grab have a superflash on startup?
 

 

It´s a pity that they disappear though. I was hopening for sth along the lines of it being like Rachel CT lobelias, and that they continue
to fly with a hitbox :P At least some of the moves, but that would be a bit retarted, I know.

On another note, can we do P-Mode Arargi into Fireball RC in the corner for oki?
Like using the fireball animation for some ambigious bullshit? :D

And was timestop even used in any active match so far?

 2. I haven't seen anyone use projectiles during block stun, but you can (at least in OD) use P-mode projectiles say if you're DD 236236B is blocked.

Spoiler

 

5. It seems like it does have a superflash, but I don't know if the active frames start at 0 or not since its a grab (so as the flash occurs the move is already active). I'm not the best at figuring at frames. It seems like there is some time to write before the super is activated and when it hits but I need hands on to say for certain. Maybe someone more seasoned could tell you?

Spoiler

Was raw 100% meter timestop used in a match? Yeah...that move is all sorts of garbage with 4-5 seconds of start up. I mean, I found uses for Terumi's command grab, but this move seems bad. To answer your question, no I haven't seen it used since its a big gamble of 100% meter. Maybe on a Tager if you launch him and then float high and trigger it since Tager's mobility might give it a chance to come out.

 

I think I've actually seen someone attempt the P-mode Aragi into fireball setup at least (no RC though). The problem comes into the fact that Aragi has very telegraphed start up giving the opponent a chance to block or barrier or even counter if they're close enough. Its good for forcing them to back down or screening advances but going into fireball is risky since that move is also telegraphed and if Aragi is plus on block, you're going to have a bad time. I think you would be better off forcing a corner set up with Aragi that option selects based on the opponent's actions where if they jump go for float set ups since Izanmi has more "air" options than any other character in the game since she can use all her moves in the air via float or her jump moves. Likewise if they decide to block and you're in range, go for the command grab to replenish ribcage/susanoo. If nothing else, the command grab drains their barrier as well, so you can take some resources from them with this method.

 

I'd love to see what you have in mind though, since the Izanami's I've seen that get wrecked don't use her tools as effectively as they could. You'd be surprised to see how well Izanami can do against others if she screen her attacks or advances with her projectiles and reacting appropriate to the opponents choices for a punish. Also people underuse her float in neutral to force the opponent to commit to a jump in to get her (you either go into float and use 214B if they try a ground run in, float cancel and use J2C to get them to eat your bit storm, or you dash forward to mess with them). Like, I can see some fatal counter fishing based on option selecting with Aragi especially. You can already at least buffer D moves during lengthy animations like fireball though, if that suits your tastes. It would seem unbalanced for Izanami to have roaming projectiles even if she gets hit since they don't cost a resource. Now if they used her barrier meter then I could accept it as they would act as a tradeoff for that ability. I have a feeling you'll like Unlimited Izanami since I can see them going that route with her VERY easily just like how Unlimited Mu is (*shivers* the CS arcade mode nightmares ). 

 

Her neutral does still have some problems, but against most of the cast, she can definitely be competitive due to her options. She'll eat Nine's range hard or Litchi's godlike neutral but I can't wait until more tech is created to counter these aspects. Abuse ribcage and command grabs between rushdown? If nothing else, when Izanami gets in on people, she approaches Terumi levels of in your face. I like to think of Izanami's mediocre neutral as a consequence of her having godlike air neutral due to float since it allows setups and option selects only the rest of the cast can dream of like I mentioned earlier with Aragi. That neutral means nothing to other people with range like the Murakumo sisters, Amane, or Izayoi's teleports. Like wise, Aragi is a snack to Azrael and Litchi's neutral can easily punish float option selects. Arakune's bug are definitely going to shut down Izanami's floating game too. Against others though, she can look down on them  since they have no answer to her that high up (unless it was a short float). When people learn the match up, I think such gimmicks will lose their effectiveness though. The beautiful thing about Izanami is that because she has so many options, people can have radically different playstyles as opposed to Terumi or Ragna. 

 

For example, I've seen some Izanmi's play using her projectiles for covering fire to dash in and out, toying with characters going so far to float and dash in and out of above the opponent to punish a late anti-air with float 214B since it teleports to the ground. Other times I've seen Izanami's that refuse to float and focus on normal 5C->normal 2C reps with 214A and 5B for days and little else. The other type go for ribcage set ups and a more poking gamestyle. If nothing else, Izanami has a varied means to play. Now if any one of those can stop the second coming of CT Arakune or the walking god Azrael, or Nine remains to be seen.

 

Edited February 13, 2016 by Axiomatic
Forgot something

[Davo87]

Has anyone seen Active mode crush trigger used with 63214D? Izanami is probably one of the few characters where CT would land a combo. Ive seen CT used in midscreen combos a lot, but not in pressure strings.

 

 

[Axiomatic]

3 hours ago, Davo87 said:

Has anyone seen Active mode crush trigger used with 63214D? Izanami is probably one of the few characters where CT would land a combo. Ive seen CT used in midscreen combos a lot, but not in pressure strings.

 

 

No, I haven't seen an Izanami go for Active CT with a "buffered" 63214D. I concur that CT is often used for extending midscreen combos due to the distance opponents go flying toward the corner, but naively I think it is pretty ballsy to go for CT in a pressure string even if you have 63214D to watch your back since that is a commitment of 50% meter that could've been spent on 214C timestop combos or a reversal 236236B which have decent minimum damage with less risk. I'd love to see the damage potential off of CT though in the corner since it could make for float combo opportunities beyond what Izanami can get off 6A depending on the data of her CT (hitstun duration, etc).

[oh no, he said]

41 minutes ago, Axiomatic said:

No, I haven't seen an Izanami go for Active CT with a "buffered" 63214D. I concur that CT is often used for extending midscreen combos due to the distance opponents go flying toward the corner, but naively I think it is pretty ballsy to go for CT in a pressure string even if you have 63214D to watch your back since that is a commitment of 50% meter that could've been spent on 214C timestop combos or a reversal 236236B which have decent minimum damage with less risk. I'd love to see the damage potential off of CT though in the corner since it could make for float combo opportunities beyond what Izanami can get off 6A depending on the data of her CT (hitstun duration, etc).

CT only costs 25% heat though, not quite sure where you're getting that other 25%, aside from using another CT mid-combo, which i don't think izanami needs off of a 63214D confirm to get decent damage.

In other news, j.2C's damage racks up surprisingly quickly, It did like just shy of 1k while finishing up a timestop combo, really interested in seeing it implemented more because i was impressed as heck by that. Also that move looks dope don't tell me it doesn't.

[Axiomatic]

2 minutes ago, oh no, he said said:

CT only costs 25% heat though, not quite sure where you're getting that other 25%, aside from using another CT mid-combo, which i don't think izanami needs off of a 63214D confirm to get decent damage.

In other news, j.2C's damage racks up surprisingly quickly, It did like just shy of 1k while finishing up a timestop combo, really interested in seeing it implemented more because i was impressed as heck by that. Also that move looks dope don't tell me it doesn't.

Sorry, I must want CT to cost even more than it does. In other news, yeah, J2C does seem to be like the go-to ender for timestop combos (214C or 720C) since as an ender I saw it cause timestop break 4k.

[bakahyl]

Does her DD command throw have invul frames or was it a pure accident that it worked?

 

 

[Zouf]

As I can see, Platinum's 5A whiffed because she did it too early on the wake up, and since Izanami does a throw counter, and you can't get CHed on a 5A (unless they changed this), it means Plat got caught in the startup of something else. Izanami command grab looks 0f after the freeze.

We can't tell if it's invul or not in this sequence at least.

[Axiomatic]

Hey guys,

 

Saw something weird with 623B's follow up (using ribcage for an attack while active) when used as an antiair. Not too sure on startup vs when the hitbox is active but. either the move has a narrow hitbox, long startup rising hitbox, or something else. Definitely seemed like Jin was safe for a few frames after activation though since he was going in on an air dash. I don't know if that attack he uses puts a hurtbox below his air dash height either, since he could of gone over Izanami's hitbox and then gotten himself hit by being too aggressive.  

Spoiler

 

 

[KericInfinitum]

I don't know if this has been mentioned elsewhere but I just noticed in a video that when Izanami does her barrier draining command throw it will add to her Health instead of her Barrier gauge if her Barrier is full.

 

[Putin]

Was Nine's escape attributed to messed up timing on Bokuzen's setup, or is the usual 5D > Ribcage > Wheel just free to all invulnerable forward dashes after a delayed tech?

The Hakumen matchup seems rough by the way. Not only does it require a different approach in neutral since he can cut projectiles (deja vu ), but also he can shit on Wheel for 50% meter which isn't too hard for him to come by. His 1f 6D/2D might also screw up Wheel to some extent, since it's a mid and they can catch it for free, but it should be ok as long as Izanami is out of range. The question is whether she can maintain pressure/apply mixup in this scenario.

Also, is Yanagi strike or UB? I don't really know how it functions, but if it's the latter then it might be an even bigger issue.

[Axiomatic]

14 minutes ago, Putin said:

Was Nine's escape attributed to messed up timing on Bokuzen's setup, or is the usual 5D > Ribcage > Wheel just free to all invulnerable forward dashes after a delayed tech?

The Hakumen matchup seems rough by the way. Not only does it require a different approach in neutral since he can cut projectiles (deja vu ), but also he can shit on Wheel for 50% meter which isn't too hard for him to come by. His 1f 6D/2D might also screw up Wheel to some extent, since it's a mid and they can catch it for free, but it should be ok as long as Izanami is out of range. The question is whether she can maintain pressure/apply mixup in this scenario.

Also, is Yanagi strike or UB? I don't really know how it functions, but if it's the latter then it might be an even bigger issue.

Disclaimer: I haven't had hands on with Izanami so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

 

Seemed like messed up timing (there was like a half second of Izanami just sitting there which would be more than enough for the combo timer to end so Nine could tech). Looks like he hesitated when realizing he wanted to be in active mode before he started the ribcage to then buffer wheel during ribcage's animation. It happens, like when I would play CP1.0 Nu and stutter when I wasn't in the right mode (I've never been a Nu main though so take that as you will).

Definitely agree about the Haku match, as Izanami isn't a true zoner so her lacking projectiles becoming meter fuel when he cuts them. Izanami's 6D is pretty fast, but I've seen competent Haku's deal with worse projectiles like my buddy in CPEX who memorized Nu's sword spawn locations in neutral to give him a chance for good reads and to build meter for his OD combos. Izanami's float shenanigans really take a hit since Haku's JC has always out poked almost anything else in the air, and if Izanami is just playing float neutral, I can see her definitely eating it. I shudder at the thought of Haku going to town on us in float mode with his air specials. Hotaru can definitley get some mileage on a Izanami that likes to float (I'd appreciate a Haku main's thoughts on it though).

 

I don't know about Haku's 6D/2D since I haven't seen if it used, since Haku's like to use pokes rather than counters due to the benefits in neutral for spacing. I know at least back in the loketests that Yanagi didn't do anything to projectiles

Quote

(Schneider-X: "Found a clip of Hakumen in BBCF, it looks like Yanagi the new drive special doesn't grab on projectiles.")

. Now if its UB can be a problem for ribcage strategies if you want to go in (for 1 magatama though, I would think it would be UB AND cover insane distances). However, I think the bigger problem is the fact Yanagi destroys what little neutral Izanami had because: 

Quote

ShinATproof: in going through attacks and covering ground quickly. Obviously, if you get a hard read on the opponent and get the chokeslam followup, GREAT! But mainly I've been using it to get out of the corner and go through projectiles.  Seriously, this is the biggest slap to Nu/Lamba/Mu users in the game because Haku just runs through basically everything they throw at him. Fought a Lambda that did Legacy Edge and I went through it. Once I was close enough and got the chokeslam.

Looks like playing like a faux zoner neutral is out of the question in this match up, but that means we just have to double down on rushdown (which Izanami is more than capable of doing). The beauty of Ring mode is that we can just rely on the CC follow ups rather than our projectiles so we aren't getting completely denied options by having projectiles lose their efficiency. We just lose some tricks in this match up. Still think its in Haku''s advantage though due to how swoll he looks in CF.

To summarize Haku can easily close the range with Yanagi, negates Izanami's projectiles, can outpoke her in float mode with JC, and Haku has improved average damage making him hit ~3-4K without popping OD depending on what resources he has. Haku is going to be scary for a lot of people, but our lewd death goddess is going to have it especially rough.

The one saving grace Izanami has is that when she puts people in the blender, they're going to eat it for a while for ~2-3K on average off simple confirms. Ribcage will definitely be a security blankey in neutral for us since all her other options are kinda of meh compared to what the neutral gods can do in this game. Her command grab can definitely be good for resource stocking and punishing Haku counters though, since it would allow her to use ribcage more often while also decreasing the opponents barrier; would make him have to respect her up close game. Float 214B may be a good counter to closing the distance if we do a good read though, but it is pretty telegraphed. A saving grace about getting in though is many of Haku's pokes on the ground go pretty high, so 3C may be useful to us a sort-of counter poke if we make the read and he doesnt RC.

Don't let my impressions and thoughts be word of law though, it may turn out that there are other factors I've missed or overestimated.

 

[-Seo]

11 hours ago, KericInfinitum said:

I don't know if this has been mentioned elsewhere but I just noticed in a video that when Izanami does her barrier draining command throw it will add to her Health instead of her Barrier gauge if her Barrier is full.

 

I thought it added to both regardless?

[Corbenik]

Is there a consensus a,one japanese players on how good she is?