Braver Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GxnMP6ugR8 I don't get it. Carl can do the clap loop at 1:34 but then he can't at 1:41??
Mascarpone Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GxnMP6ugR8 I don't get it. Carl can do the clap loop at 1:34 but then he can't at 1:41?? It's when the clap is released that changes it. If the clap is released early enough the wave of the clap is active when you grab them and it will hit them if they break, but now nirvana stops if you are throw-broken and the clap's animation has slower start up so you cannot loop it safely and unbreakably. if you time it just perfectly the wave will hit them IF they break immediately but if they break late they will still miss the wave. It's no longer a 100% unblockable set up. 8D can still be used to mess with your opponent during an air throw but you can no longer cycle it indefinatly.
Neo Balrog Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 It's when the clap is released that changes it. If the clap is released early enough the wave of the clap is active when you grab them and it will hit them if they break, but now nirvana stops if you are throw-broken and the clap's animation has slower start up so you cannot loop it safely and unbreakably. if you time it just perfectly the wave will hit them IF they break immediately but if they break late they will still miss the wave. It's no longer a 100% unblockable set up. 8D can still be used to mess with your opponent during an air throw but you can no longer cycle it indefinatly. If doing so. 8D must be made before airthrow, really?
soujiro seta Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 I think the clap loop is still possible to some extent. 8D has a slower start up in CS. The thing is in CT it's 2C 8D hold D(jump up and hold up, as you free fall you then) B+C release D etc No matter when they throw break they'll get hit by 8D. Now in CS, since 8D is slower, it most likely might be 2C 8D hold D(jump up and hold up, as you free fall) release D and then B+C. 8D should come out regardless of when they tech. All that changes now is that you release D before grabbing, rather than in CT where you grab then release D. All this ofcourse is just speculation and needs to be tested, but I think it might work.
Lastblade Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 In regards to the clap loop, the moment they tech your grab, if nirvana was still in the clap start up it COMPLETELY stops. However, if the clap has come out before they tech, it still comes out so in a sense, you need to clap before you attempt to grab. Also, if they don't tech you at all, you can nearly kill them before nirvana shuts off. This is personal experience from playing CS.
ShinsoBEAM Posted November 27, 2009 Posted November 27, 2009 wait did i hear a audio call for Vivace c.c? why would they do that <_< that's just as silly as adding an audio tell to bridget's 214K roll C_C' why do we need to give them an audio que that we're trying to cross them up or.. well.. move in general. It would be kinda like me screaming "JOG!" every time i go for a run. "AIR TECH"- bang "OKIZEMI" - bang Its fighting games plus its cooler, I liked the announced supers in HnK as well.
Mascarpone Posted November 27, 2009 Posted November 27, 2009 "AIR TECH"- bang "OKIZEMI" - bang Its fighting games plus its cooler, I liked the announced supers in HnK as well. Bang is kinda different because his whole persona is corney and over the top. And yes i don't mind the anounced specials that much. They anounced allot of them in CT alread. it's anime-ey. they did it in GG too and it's fine. it's just... vivace isn't really a combat move that i would think you'd want to anounce. it's kind of just a little.. swish forward. Like i said it's the same idea as when they added the tell for bridget's air roll on accent core. The only purpose it serves is to go "hey i'm moving! punish me!" and with vivace's less than immaculate recovery times i dont think it was really important to call even more attention to him activating it. I'd say one of the reason's Anima is so lackluster is because not only is it slow, a breakable grab, and has horrid recovery time, but the loud "Anima!" from carl practically screams "Buffer a throw break here she comes!" So do you -really- want them announcing your other moves with bed recovery time as well? But hey they did it to bridget, why not. On an unrelated note, something just occurred to me: Carl's hop can be canceled into allagreto. So that means his hop has moves where he's active in the air. is it possible then that his forward dash can also be glide-thrown like his IAD's to end with no recovery time? I realize it's totally possible that the window might just be too small to make it practical, but... could you? :o
Umareru Posted November 27, 2009 Posted November 27, 2009 I personally like the Vivace sound clip. Not bad enough you are death spiking where i used to be, but you can see me rollin', you hatin', patrollin' and tryna catch me Vivace'ing. I actually increased my Vivace usage by 50% in CS. Also, I'm seeing a lot of GGXX Zappa players playing Carl (myself included). Is there a trend that makes both characters appeal to people like us? How curious.
Zoogstin Posted November 27, 2009 Posted November 27, 2009 I like side characters. The dog was my favorite summon in GG I played Lieselotte in AH as well. Nirvana is no different.
Zeero Posted November 27, 2009 Posted November 27, 2009 But after watching so much vids of other characters and all the vids of carl, i think the fundamental problem of Carl being bottom tier in CT (before throw loop) still exists... He has shitty life, he has shitty guard libra (primer now), and shitty defense options. If you think about what he gained in CS, he didnt really gain anything but bigger overall damage... but whats bigger than 100% combos? If you think about what he lost in CS, he lost clap loop (well deserved), he lost Brio (lost another defense option), he lost j2c mixup option which is still faster than CS 6C imo, "ever lasting" sandwich pressure since Nirvana dies faster now. Also, he used to have 2nd best guard break ability in the game next to rachel with sandwich pressure and high guard break attacks, but now i dont even know what actually removes guard primer for him except 41236D. Whats the other ones, allegretto and 6C? All unsafe options when blocked. So in summary, he got bigger damage for losing even more defense and offense options... Im not sure if they made vivace faster or 6A better or what but if those stayed the same, then he really lost more than gained. Higher level players will always IB your sandwich pressure and get out. Which is why i think Carl will end up being bottom tier with noel. Just my opinion though, dont hate me lol.
Mascarpone Posted November 27, 2009 Posted November 27, 2009 represent the bottom! At bare minimum the tier list in BB isn't wildly gapped. He's fun to play with. Also if Alagreto breaks guard primer then presumably doesn't that make it's use out of dash functional for guard break during a block string? someone should test to see if it recovers fast enough to keep sandwich pressure up after using it in such a way.
Zeero Posted November 27, 2009 Posted November 27, 2009 The one thing i can think of is after your 2nd sandwich loop, you might be able to pull off... (6d) 2a 5a 2a 5a (insert 41236]D[) 5b 2b 6b 623c(if needed) (drill activates) to break guard... I dont exactly remember how much 2a5a you can pull off and such though
Mascarpone Posted November 27, 2009 Posted November 27, 2009 I think you canc cycle 2a5a up to 3 times but in the videos i've watchced it pushes away enough that the 4th a in a string whiffs...
Lastblade Posted November 27, 2009 Posted November 27, 2009 Allegreto if done near the ground has been pretty safe during the ground loop when I'm doing it. The sandwich pressure (we've been calling it something else) still works and even though everyone believes nirvana dies to fast, in reality she feels to have a lot more survivability than in CT. She recovers much faster and recovers while being active (Though not when she's actually attacking). His dash jump cancel is doing fine with quick mixups and 236A during sandwich pressure plus 41236D or 421D (Volante) can do fairly well. Don't forget, that Volante can be shot offscreen and DOES NOT disappear if Carl blocks. I've gotten out of tons of pressure strings with this because the opponent didn't know when it'd show up (It starts out slowly then speeds up). This moment is long enough to either get out of the corner, do 2B 2C ect., or various other things. So no, I don't agree that he has no defensive options in CS. Both of Nirvana's supers break guard primer, Volante probably doesn't but so far everyone has gotten hit by it so I don't know.
TGS Posted November 27, 2009 Posted November 27, 2009 In regards to the clap loop, the moment they tech your grab, if nirvana was still in the clap start up it COMPLETELY stops. However, if the clap has come out before they tech, it still comes out so in a sense, you need to clap before you attempt to grab. Also, if they don't tech you at all, you can nearly kill them before nirvana shuts off. This is personal experience from playing CS. A couple of questions about this. 1) Will a late throw tech avoid the clap wave? 2) Clap is still unblockable, is it? 3) How many reps are possible if the new clap loop exists? 4) Did Carl's air throw get changed? So assuming the loop is still possible, I'm guessing you won't be able to outright 100% someone with it, so I'm guessing you could probably do a couple of reps for damage, and end it with Gear super or Nirvana Bang Upper (depending on meter gain during loop). Go test it out, kthnx!
Zoogstin Posted November 27, 2009 Posted November 27, 2009 Are you talking about the clap loop or the throw loop?
TGS Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 I guess you could say throw loop even though it uses the clap.
Lastblade Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 1) Will a late throw tech avoid the clap wave? It depends, if the clap wave has already completely come out, they'll be hit by it. However, if the wave is still forming or nirvana is still in start up for it, it'll immediately stop. 2) Clap is still unblockable, is it? I can't answer that 100% because no one has bothered to try to guard it or they got hit anyhow. So I can't reliably say yes or no on that. 3) How many reps are possible if the new clap loop exists? I had one of my friends NOT tech at all with Tager and I did about 70% dmg to him through it before nirvana was almost dead. On other characters this may mean death but if you're willing to do variations involving RC, you can kill them with it if they don't throw tech and allow nirvana to recharge a little bit inbetween. 4) Did Carl's air throw get changed? It seems the same, kara throwing is still available and his jump cancel from dash is interesting enough aswell. But no, the air throw seems the same. Overall, I'd say its not worth doing it unless its for the kill. He has a good deal more options now with the addition of volante. His unblockable setups from CT work just fine aswell if not slightly easier because of the threat volante creates.
Umareru Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 Carl is definitely not bottom tier. Although it's too early to put him anywhere, we really haven't experimented enough with his new options and setups. j2C is as fast as it was in CT (not sure if it's an overhead, though) but it can be used for crossups, even during the sandwich loop. Sandwich the opponent, IAD behind him and j2C 2a,5a,5B,5B,6D and then A version vivace to continue the combo. You can also vivace while nirvana is punching to cross them up. Non shoryu characters are gonna have a helluva time trying to escape. Clap is unblockable as ever, good for scaring the opponent into turtling away from you and nirvana. I like clapping once before firing volantes, it makes them cower. To everyone wondering, no, he does not have the throw loop. It's not a loop anymore because even if you manage to get off one rep, no seasoned player is going to be stupid enough not to tech ASAP on the next one. Honestly I wouldn't go for it at all, if you want a sneaky grab go for Anima. They'll never see it coming!
Lastblade Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 Carl's gear super + Anima is quite fun because if they tech the throw, they'll still need to block the gear, if they get used to Anima being used during the gear and try to jump, a clap will put them back in the gear anyhow. And of course if they just get thrown, you'll be safe until they land anyhow. But ya, the throw loop is hardly worth doing in competitive situations. They'll just tech the second throw if you manage to get the first one anyhow.
4Corners Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 New Carl is looking spiffy. Sorry I dropped off the face of the earth. School was raping me, hard. Also, I've started to get really annoyed with the entire nature of Carl's character in CS. Did you get the combo? Yes. You win. Did you get hit? Yes. You probably lost. Not fun to me. New Carl is looking tight, with all the mix-ups. Volante as a scare tactic is looking pretty sweet.
Zeero Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 you probably meant CT? lol Glad people actually who have played the game is happy with carl. On video it feels like he lost more than he gained but guess i'll never know until i play. Hopefully next month or so
4Corners Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 Oops. Yeah, I meant CT. New Carl looks faster and more mix-up based, ala Millia. And if that's the case, I'm down to play that shiz. Here's hoping they change the announcer, though.
Prophet Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 New Carl is looking spiffy. Sorry I dropped off the face of the earth. School was raping me, hard. Also, I've started to get really annoyed with the entire nature of Carl's character in CS. Did you get the combo? Yes. You win. Did you get hit? Yes. You probably lost. Not fun to me. New Carl is looking tight, with all the mix-ups. Volante as a scare tactic is looking pretty sweet. Part of me really likes the fact that Carl is a glass cannon, while on the other hand I can see where his gameplay ends up feeling monotonous. Can't wait to try out CS.
PhaethonH Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 CA Volante loses to TG Spark Volt Nirvana can still meat-shield it, though. Moral of the match: Volante against charged TG, hold D.
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