[CS1] Carl Clover Tactical Discussion/Questions/Help

[Mascarpone]

So anima is only untechable on green throw? that was the detail i was missing?

[Prophet]

So anima is only untechable on green throw? that was the detail i was missing?

It seems that way. We need to force green throw so that in the event that the opponent doesn't tech, we can follow up with a combo.

[ZONG_one]

Thank you so much, Kyle. You are my Kentucky doppelganger. Always on the same page. Actually, always with the same name, as well. :P

[Adelheid]

Anima is not untechable to the ground in any situation, actually I'm not clear that purple throw out of ground pressure into Dio Combo doesn't work, if the purple throw is the first hit of the combo. All I was saying earlier, is that you can't loop this; you certainly can't get anything if you do any sort of extended combo into the purple throw, so if you try that they can just escape that way. But out of pressure I think it's still good, even from purple throw. I've never actually been good at Dio Combo (never practiced it, didn't have time to practice it then), so when I was testing it last night I was using the slightly different combo of purple Anima, 236B on reaction to not throw teching, j2C Allecan jB jC 8D (1-hit) to 2D loop. If that works, then I assume Dio Combo does too. Because remember... You may have less default untechable time, but I think it's only 2 frames less, and you also don't have the lowered untechable time from the added hits from the starting (any low)+2D. But, I'm not going to be able to test it myself for awhile; left for break until this weekend. Even just doing this is massive damage and gets you reset sandwich pressure though. If you do get a green one (which I personally believe to not be reasonable, since... Ticking with Anima is very hard, if they see you go for it they can hold up on reaction...), I don't think dio combo is actually the best thing you can do though. You get two extra hits before untechable time would go down to what it is for the standard dio combo. When I get the chance this weekend, I'll spend some time experimenting and trying to find what is real optimal dmaage.

[ZONG_one]

I just wanted Dio combo starter (Alle-can > j.B > j.C > 8D) -> 2D loop. Full Dio combo will re-cross up, making it O-C-N with allegretto pushing away. That's not what we want.

[Adelheid]

Well, it can actually be useful for corner push to get less escapable pressure, because of the nature of this setup. So I think it can sometimes be what we want. Regardless, I'm totally confirming that you can at least get the start of the dio combo from purple Anima combo starter.

[ZONG_one]

Well, it can actually be useful for corner push to get less escapable pressure, because of the nature of this setup. So I think it can sometimes be what we want.

Regardless, I'm totally confirming that you can at least get the start of the dio combo from purple Anima combo starter.

You're right about corner push. That'd be great.

And thank you for confirming.

I didn't mean to sound rude at all, if that's what you were getting at.

Just mid screen, well, you know.

Thanks again!

[Adelheid]

Again, for people not following this or who can't quite visualize the interaction here: Normally, dio combo sends the opponent backwards from where you are a fair bit because you cross them under and then send them flying a bit with Con Brio to Allegretto. But here, you use Con Anima to throw them behind Ada and you Vivace to the other side to start it, so your cross under really just gets you back to your initial orientation after already moving them forward, so it ends with the opponent having moved a great deal forward; done from about the middle of the stage, it should get them solidly in the corner. (I say should because I haven't tested it personally, but this seems right.) The corner, naturally, being where Carl's pressure and resets are at their strongest, even better than during CON.

[Kyle]

follow-up after Con Anima "Purple" is going to depend on the previous hits which put opponent into combo. Full Dio combo is very possible off of a small string. 5A, 5B, 6B, Con Anima, Dio Combo. What we are realy needing to test is the ability to pick-up after a full ground combo, into Con Anima. Preferably a full ground JUMP LOOP combo.

[Kyle]

STARK, If we do get opponent to jump set-up, Can't we use Cantata to force them aerieal and get them with 8]D[. ??? needs more training mode. EDIT- or even a J.A string, Land, 6A, re-jump whatev- into 8]D[?

[Dacidbro]

Whatever you guys end up deciding on any particular area, if you need some honest human intelligence that hasn't already played itself out, I'm happy to play the devil's advocate for defensive options (In theory or even in practice with Zong) Just let me know eh This sounds powerful, but truthfully against many of the cast characters I would skip it for true ground resets, cause I know with Bang I'm just praying for a way out.

[ZONG_one]

Normally, dio combo sends the opponent backwards from where you are a fair bit because you cross them under and then send them flying a bit with Con Brio to Allegretto. But here, you use Con Anima to throw them behind Ada and you Vivace to the other side to start it, so your cross under really just gets you back to your initial orientation after already moving them forward, so it ends with the opponent having moved a great deal forward; done from about the middle of the stage, it should get them solidly in the corner. (I say should because I haven't tested it personally, but this seems right.) The corner, naturally, being where Carl's pressure and resets are at their strongest, even better than during CON.

I would have to agree.

So if either you/I/Kyle tests this, and you can get to corner from anywhere, that's probably where we should take it.

Wouldn't you guys agree?

Also Cross Under.

That's the word I was looking for earlier.. -_-

[Marionette Pwii]

crap....

[Dacidbro]

By the way, don't take this the wrong way but I saw some Japanese Carls do this and I didn't say anything because I didn't want Zong to be any better than he already was for the latest AI tournament Lmao

[Marionette Pwii]

sigh duck

[soujiro seta]

Lol, i'm the reset master, you guys should have pm'ed me pronto, i kid i kid You want to force a green throw. I stopped throw looping a while back in CT and here some of the things I do Trying to force a green throw: During the [j5C 5B 5C 6D]xN combo, you can do j5C 5B 5C anima. If you input anima too fast, it will be purple. You have to give just a slight delay after 5C, input anima and it will become green. Anima will catch them like right after they come out of the hit stun from 5c and become green. Best of all. They are too far to DP you, assuming they are mashing it, so it's safe. During the [j5C 5B 5C 6D]xN combo, you can do j5C 5B 6B anima vivace A vivace A. During the [j5C 5B 5C 6D]xN combo most people are usually holding back(4) or down-back(1) just incase you mess up so they can block. So when you vivace A after 6B, they'll walk right into anima, mean while you're already almost back in the same spot you were in with the second vivace just in time to counter hit if they tech the throw, or if they dont you just vivace B and do what ever. On a side note Some times I do j5C 5B 6B anima, vivace A If they tech, right after teching I IAD j5C 2A/5A/5b IAD j2C allecan -> combo. lol We need to have a reset thread. Ever since I stopped throw looping I've come up with some nice resets that I would like to share with you gais . Note, the vivace A one doesn't work on tager. Even if you use vivace B he can still grab you, even though you're literally in the other side and it's CNO. If you want to test it out in CT/CS don't do it on tager.

[Adelheid]

I was under the impression you couldn't do perfect ticks in this game... Throws will be purple until the sixth frame after someone gets out of hitstun/blockstun... Or so I thought. So, that's always escapable by just holding up... It's not like the opponent has any real reason not to hold up after your 5C, anyway, so as long as they know this... And I would always just compulsively tell my opponent "Stop falling for that and just hold up."

[Kyle]

We can punish jumps.

[Adelheid]

how

Ada is tied up in Anima and jA mash isn't going to solve all your problems and certainly can't be done on reaction; it would be 50/50 at best. Am I missing something obvious here?

Not that 50/50 isn't cool or anything, but it really seems like you're making this out to be better than it actually is.

[ZONG_one]

I would love to know how to punish jumps, with Nirvana in another animation.. Seems like you can't get anything to keep the pressure going, unless you IAD Air Throw, which is all yomi, not reaction.

[soujiro seta]

I was under the impression you couldn't do perfect ticks in this game... Throws will be purple until the sixth frame after someone gets out of hitstun/blockstun... Or so I thought. So, that's always escapable by just holding up... It's not like the opponent has any real reason not to hold up after your 5C, anyway, so as long as they know this... And I would always just compulsively tell my opponent "Stop falling for that and just hold up."

When in the NOC position, people expect carl to do a blockstring, then nirvana hits. You don't see them jump out because they expect nirvana to hit them, and don't want to get hit by her while in jump animation. Also, you can bait a jump out by delaying her move after carl's blockstring and doing 8D. This is effective against people who like to barrier block for more pushback when in the NOC situation. Make her do 8D instead of 6D.

Actually anima comes out pretty fast. They come right out of blockstun/hitstun animation and get caught in it. It's literally like they can't jump out.

Coming out of blockstun

vid 1

Coming out of hitstun

vid 2

You just have to give a slight delay. Too fast and it will be purple. It's the same for the 5B 6B one as well. The reason for the vivace A is so if they try to hit you, cause you are so close, they can't. Even if they don't walk into nirvana, she'll grab them right out of hitstun/blockstun, by that time you're already on your way back with the second vivace A. If they tech, you reset. If they don't, you can vivace B and do what you want.

I don't have a vid of the 5B 6B one cause it was something I just came up with after practice and unfortunately I can't find a vid that shows it.

Purple stuff isn't always bad though.

if you want a free reset, after 5B 6B do anima fast enough to make it purple. After your first vivace A IAD and j5C, after coming out of teching animation they'll block j5C, or they might not, and you can just 2A/5A/5B/2A-5A j2C allecan-.combo.

We definitely should have a reset thread and share our ideas. What do you guys think? Kyle? Zeero?

[Adelheid]

Hmm. You've thought this through. I can see a lot of the benefit of what you're saying now.

I really just see no reason why to even bother with a green throw out of blockstun though. Hitstun, yeah, that's cool but blockstun, eh, it doesn't give you any more comboability. Purple throw is easier and less escapable. Also talking with Veteru, he claimed to me that there isn't actually any decrease in untechable time from a combo going black beat. I trust him as generally knowledgable, so really, I just don't see the point in putting that hole there. Not in blockstun, anyway.

And really, from hit, I would just keep going with standard pressure most of the time.... Because if they eventually block, whatever, just go into it purple anyway, right? Keeps there from being that silly hole there that doesn't need to exist. It's still plenty good, keeps the opponent on their toes, makes their only one hole instead of letting them IB and stuff so you decide when the hole is instead of them. More viable than I gave it credit for. But still there's a lot to be said for keeping standard pressure because you CAN always just get back into it.

I'll totally admit I was wrong about Anima's speed though! 33 frames is totally usable; it's always felt worse than that to me but I guess it's because it's so bad out of neutral that I want it to be slower than it is. But it IS slow enough that it's reactionable (very much so!), which means yes the opponent can jump out if they're looking for it. Ada's action is subtle but that vocal tell of Carl's is unmistakable. Maybe? I'm not testing this since I'm not currently near CS, but looking at the frame data and my own memory, this is what it seems to be telling me. It's not like it will never work, far from it, it'll work a lot. It's strong. But, I just think... It might not be the strongest.

On the other hand, with a speed like that you can really just throw it in anywhere, can't you? It's the same speed as 6D, and I totally didn't know that. That's awesome! So you should be able to, in blockstrings, do ... > 63214C+]D[ 236A; as long as you're not riiiight next to them this should get you right up to them, letting you react to their throw tech or lack thereof with 5A > ground loop or 236B + whatever. Even on IB unless you have a strong reversal there's not a big enough hole to get out 5B 5C, so eheheh. (And you can always jc the blocked 5B to block any reversal attack, trying to yomi the opponent.)

This is really way too cool.

[ZONG_one]

It will end up being pretty strong, I agree. People with great DP's may pose an issue, but jc 5B on block for yomi is a good idea. IB'ing the DP would be even better, because you could probably get j.A > 8D unblock, and reset pressure with oki.

[Kyle]

I particularly like using 5A, 5B to finish combo, go into blockstun and force purple Con Anima.

[Adelheid]

I'm really :psyduck:ing here

Because I just don't see the advantage of using a green throw over a purple throw from blockstun, when green throw requires tight timing and doesn't seem to offer any tangible benefits, that I can tell... Purple throw just seems strictly superior... But everyone is saying "No, go for green throw"

I feel like there's something so simple that I'm just missing here