guilty gear, not loved by critics?

[Mr. Mamation]

More bitter GG fans blaming BB for the games dwindling fanbase.

Really, GG killed/is killing its own fanbase. Poor international scene, lack of new blood, a niche audience, and also not really giving anything new in terms of the main games. It was revamp after revamp of the same game, new stuff was added which was good and it worked for the most part, but people are only going to play the same game for so long before wanting something new or different. Rather than giving GGX3 like they should have done, they didn't. GG never really evolved past X2. It just became X2.5 plus more complex mechanics which in turn alienated new players even more. Add this with the new direction Daisuke is seemingly wanting to take the series and it's no surprise as to why some GG players have moved on to other games. Eventually we're bound to see a true GGX2 sequel(which I've personally been waiting for since AC vanilla), but until then you're just gonna have to deal with the shift.

And you should be thankful for BB and in addition SF4, regardless of whether you personally like them or not. Why? They've brought back life into the 2D fighting game scene, which it needed. No one wants to make a game for a market which isn't even profitable anymore. These games have helped it stand back on its feet.

On an irrelevant note, I love me some CvS2, and Capcom/SNK need to release that over XBL/PSN already. I have the game myself but I can't play it for some stupid reason :/

EDIT: VVVVSagat was such a punk in that game.

CvS is indeed awesome. V Bison is muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch better than V Sagot lol. R4 K groove Sagot son!

Honestly though though, I could care less that SF4 and BB brought new people in. The thing I love about MD/VA is that we realized how boring/dumb those two games are and reversed back to the older games. So here I am playing what I love with people that I like and not having to deal with dumb "stuff." Games not at Evo or Togeki? Like I give a shit. Why should I force myself to like or even support games that are horrible. I enjoy playing speed chest, not speed checkers.

The new BB sounds promising but there is still one HUGE thing about the game I hate. All the characters and their moves are boring.

And all this still doesn't change the fact that BB is still a mindless game as it is now.

[Luv-Sic]

lol, I'm surprised the mods haven't locked this thread yet. It's slowly becoming BB vs GG... I wonder why so many ppl love blazblue though, what does it have that guilty gear doesn't have...is it really netplay. It wouldn't surprise me if more ppl still wanted to play blazblue even if a new guilty gear w/ netplay came out.

[Soothesayer]

Er actually I've been playing GG much longer than BB(and still do to this day, don't think I'm a BB newbie who just discovered GG last week...I played it more than any other fighter I own in fact) and am a GG fan, not pro status mind you but no newb either. And I'm actually afraid BB will fall into the same path, that was always my biggest concern for the franchise since it first hit arcades. I'm fine with one revamp, two's really pushing it(honestly, I would've rather had them stop at the final reload and just work on GGX3 then) but by the time the third one I just want a new game already(Isuka does not count though, that just wasn't doing it), and I'm not the only one who felt this way(in fact, it's one complaint many critics and fans have had about the series). It seemed like everything after X2 felt like an update rather than a true sequel - which is fine at first, but after a while you want more than just GGX2*insert subtitle here* + stuff. The gameplay has become more polished and in-depth due to added mechanics and moves which a good thing, but maybe I'm just greedy, I'd like to see the entire game improve, not just a couple of aspects. I'd also like to see the core gameplay change for the better, while not being too different so that it doesn't feel GG anymore. The step the RBFF series made to Garou is a nice example of the kind of change I'd like to see, though I wouldn't want half of the GG cast to disappear either. Another thing and one a lot of longtime GG players seem to scoff is accessibility. Okay, first of all, a game that's easier to pick up =/= dumbed down. Unfortunately, that's often the association hardcore fighting game players seem make with accessibility. GG catered itself to the hardcore with later titles, which resulted in a lot of not-so-hardcore players being alienated from it. The game definitely has an initial wall in it, one which takes a lot of personal dedication to climb. Now personally I think gamers in general should definitely spend time with fighting games before reaching a conclusion about it, but in reality if most gamers aren't into a game within 30 minutes-1st hour, they're probably not going to like it. The majority of gamers(fighting ones aren't exempt from this either) lack the personal dedication or desire for whatever reason to get over that initial wall GG has now. I've tried getting more than a couple of people who love fighters into GG and they lose interest rather quickly, from not being able to grasp the basic flow of the game and do much of anything except flail around stupidly and lose, tossing out a special move or two every so often. You're probably saying "to hell with them, they can go noob it up on SF or Tekken" and I don't like that lack of dedication anymore than you, but if you can't get even get them interested in wanting them to play the game extensively, then they'll never grasp the inner depth and beauty of it, which is sadly what happened a lot of gamers with GG. In the terms of gathering a fanbase, the next GG should be more accessible to non-hardcore players but also without sacrificing it's depth and variety. That way more people can get into GG and appreciate it without necessarily "dumbing" it down. How Arc achieves this is on them, but I think that's sort of what they're trying to go for with BB. Not sying GG should turn itself into BB, it shouldn't and vice versa, but a major issue with GG fanbse wise is that it's just not an accessible game for lot of gamers, which makes it difficult for the fanbase to grow efficiently. EDIT @Mam: I know what you mean with that, a game should be enjoyable before anything else right? If it's not enjoyable then what's the point of playing, Evo or not. I see where you're coming from, and I have no problem with that reasoning, I agree with it. Absolutely nothing wrong in disliking a game you don't enjoy playing.

[zeech]

Actually, we're getting close to an issue I've been thinking about recently. When it comes to competitive games, how much change do we want? Is the games industry addicted to change? On the one hand, traditional games like Chess, Go and Poker have remained pretty similar for decades or even centuries, apart from minor tweaks. Noone expects those games to have sequels or updates. The closest thing in competitive video games might be Starcraft and SF2ST, which still enjoy a lot of popularity despite being 10+ years old. On the other hand though, video games are much more complex and unbalanced than symmetrical board games, plus graphics technology is always moving forward. So there's pressure here to update games with bugfixes, balance fixes, graphical updates. I asked this question on another forum, and the general feeling seems to be, "I'm fine with updating a game I like, but don't expect me to pay again for it." So, in other words, if an update doesnt have any new content, then people expect it to be a free patch. Great, we love free patches, right? But a games company can't survive that way. Unless it's someone like Blizzard who make money off other (single player or ongoing) products, noone can keep their team employed and paid for 10+ years doing free updates for a game that has already sold most of its copies. And dont forget, games developers usually receive a fixed fee for a game to be delivered, they dont get any extra money from ongoing sales. So instead they keep making new versions of the games, adding just enough content to justify another purchase, and in the process destroying or at least not improving the balance and gameplay. (as a KOF fan since 94, I feel butthurt by this especially.) So to the GG fans, would you pay money for another rerelease of the last GG, with some fixes and tweaks? Or, since ASW is not the developer anymore, would you pay money for a true sequel, but developed by a different team with new ideas, new (probably worse) gameplay, new (broken) characters, etc? And if you wont pay money for either of these, and are quite happy with the GG you have, then why should anyone (software devs, publishers, other players) care about you in any way? They'll keep making BB and other new games that keep them employed, and you can keep playing your game with its current community.

[Kojanue]

Let's see here... I just don't like BB for my own reasons. Albeit, stupid reasons, but reasons nonetheless. If other people wanna go play BB, go ahead. I won't bash them for it. But ever since I played the first Guilty Gear back when my brother had tried getting into it, I subconsciously began to love it. Mainly, I just don't like the styles each BB character has for fighting, not to mention, Xbox360 sucks when the D-pad is a little too thick for me, plus the stick is too lose for me. Oh, and some of their names are riduculous. Seriously... Bang? What kinda name is Bang =.= oh and just as a side note, yelling your attack in english isn't as entertaining as it is in japanese =3

[Mr. Mamation]

lol, I'm surprised the mods haven't locked this thread yet. It's slowly becoming BB vs GG...

I wonder why so many ppl love blazblue though, what does it have that guilty gear doesn't have...is it really netplay. It wouldn't surprise me if more ppl still wanted to play blazblue even if a new guilty gear w/ netplay came out.

mission comprete

[Zerite]

Guilty gear is better than BB, but it's alot less accessible. BB was designed in part to appeal to more casual gamers. Seriously though. Each iteration of Guilty Gear seemed like a completely new game to me. but to more casual players, it apparently was just the same game over and over with minor additions. GG is still my favorite game. BB let me down. It turned out to be much shallower than GG. I was hoping for a game on the same level, with more accessible mechanics. As far as I can tell, by the time they're done with BB it'll be a game that ends because of time every match, which is fine, but not my style.

[zeech]

I wonder why so many ppl love blazblue though, what does it have that guilty gear doesn't have...is it really netplay. It wouldn't surprise me if more ppl still wanted to play blazblue even if a new guilty gear w/ netplay came out.

Well, if you're really curious, then for me it's the character designs/story/theme.

GG is too ridiculous and crazy for me. (I'm sure that's part of why GG fans love it though).

Even BB is slightly pushing it in terms of characters, but at least it's more reasonable than GG. BB seems to also be developing a fairly respectable story (for a fighting game).

I'm a longtime player of VF and KOF, recent fan of Melty, and only switched to BB out of curiosity (and to my surprise found that I liked it.) So I like believable human characters, not crazy ugly freaks.

I'm not a tournament player though, so you can consider me part of the "casual" crowd that dustloop hates so much :P

Oh, and another major reason is that BB is a "living" game, especially with good netplay, whereas KOF12, Melty (in the west) and VF (in the west) are "dead" games. No point dedicating any time to learning a dead game with no opponents.

Guilty gear is better than BB, but it's alot less accessible. BB was designed in part to appeal to more casual gamers. Seriously though. Each iteration of Guilty Gear seemed like a completely new game to me. but to more casual players, it apparently was just the same game over and over with minor additions.

I asked this before but noone responded. How does BB compare to the first GG in terms of gameplay depth, balance, etc?

All games add more and more features and complexity with every sequel, so it's understandable that the last GG is probably more complex and deeper than the first one. So is BB even more simple than the first GG? Or were they similar (and thus we can expect BB to possibly become more complex in the future...)

[Luv-Sic]

Well, if you're really curious, then for me it's the character designs/story/theme.

GG is too ridiculous and crazy for me. (I'm sure that's part of why GG fans love it though).

Even BB is slightly pushing it in terms of characters, but at least it's more reasonable than GG. BB seems to also be developing a fairly respectable story (for a fighting game).

I'm a longtime player of VF and KOF, recent fan of Melty, and only switched to BB out of curiosity (and to my surprise found that I liked it.) So I like believable human characters, not crazy ugly freaks.

What!!!????!! Take a look at my avatar, this is one of the sexiest fukin characters in the game. And what about Johnny, this guy is manly and good looking if I do say so myself!!!!...no fukin homo!!!

[Soothesayer]

I had thought ASW got the rights to GG back, maybe that was just a rumor? I don't want a worse GG game though, no one does I would imagine. I'm happy with my GG now but if a new, better GG came out, I would get it in a heartbeat, and be much happier. Doesn't mean I'll stop playing the one I have now, I'll probably play it less, but I wouldn't sell it. You mentioned change in the VG industry Zeech, that's one thing that's really big for me. I'm the sort of gamer who as long as I find a game fun, I'll play it until I die. I still pop in 16-bit games on a daily basis cause well they're damn fun. I don't get rid of my games either unless I have to or in need of money for one I want. But I also like to see games develop and grow, push themselves to their limits and surpass the limits of yesterday. Even the games of back then did that for their time, and it's part of what made them great other than just being enjoyable to play. I definitely want the industry to move forward while still making enjoyable and quality games, but at the same time gamers shouldn't forsake the gems of the past and honor those as well, not only because they're great games, but also to appreciate how far the industry has come and not forget what has made games what they are today. Hmmm...I can see where the ire of the GG community is coming from in this respect, in that fans are abandoning GG for the new and shiny(like most gamers do with any genre). I guess you really could say the present-day gaming community is addicted to change, not to mention fickle and generally want instant gratification. GG1 compared to BB isn't as a good a comparison as say, GGX and BB, since the X series is what got GG more or less famous(well, more well known than GG1 did) and X2 is based more off GGX's formula than GG1. GG1 I never played but vids of it make me laugh. Chipp's standing animation is too retarded lol.

[Blade]

tl-dr, every last one of you.

[Rinse-n-Repeat]

Well, if you're really curious, then for me it's the character designs/story/theme.

I asked this before but noone responded. How does BB compare to the first GG in terms of gameplay depth, balance, etc?

All games add more and more features and complexity with every sequel, so it's understandable that the last GG is probably more complex and deeper than the first one. So is BB even more simple than the first GG? Or were they similar (and thus we can expect BB to possibly become more complex in the future...)

You're comparing BB to something that came out in 98'? Even though Blazblue is the first of its individual series, its not like Arc System is new to the fighting game biz. They didn't make it simple just because it's the first of its series, but because it is more approachable to casual fans; a more dumb-down version of Guilty Gear.

And "crazy, ugly freaks" !?!?!? Plz, just because blazblue isn't some generic collection of anime stereotypes, doesnt mean they are any less appealing. And even then Tager looks an awful lot like Potemkin...o_0. Litchi looks alot like Jam o_0. Jin and Ragna for gawd sake is just more typical anime versions of Ky and Sol, respectively.

[Kamui Moon]

tl-dr, every last one of you.

for once... I agree with... Blade.

also, y'all niggaz postin' in a troll thread.jpg

[zeech]

You're comparing BB to something that came out in 98'? Even though Blazblue is the first of its individual series, its not like Arc System is new to the fighting game biz. They didn't make it simple just because it's the first of its series, but because it is more approachable to casual fans; a more dumb-down version of Guilty Gear.

But that's just it - if someone went back in time and released the latest GG as the first in the series, it probably wouldnt be as popular in the end. (Actually I'm just assuming here, since noone has bothered to inform me if the first GG is less complex than the latest one.)

Game sequels accumulate complexity because existing fans demand new things to try, learn and see. And thus with each sequel the game becomes increasingly forbidding to new players, and increasingly relies on the existing fanbase.

Also game design is pretty hit and miss. BB is not identical to GG, so it's probably impossible to try for a different game with the same complexity and yet be balanced and playable first time. Since ASW doesnt do patches or open betas, they probably had to start simple and iterate up with sequels, or else their new game would be too much for the designers to handle in one go.

I dont understand your point with the characters, are you trying to defend BB or GG, or what?

[Zerite]

It's a game with bursts, momentum dashing, roman cancels, supers, force breaks (for jin at least), alpha counters and instant blocking. It even has a variant of the IK system in astral finishes. The most substantial difference is the damage scaling system and the barrier system, both of which they should have just left alone. I can't imagine what the problem could be in reusing the same underlying system with an entirely new cast. They also left out Frc's presumably because more casual players found them nearly impossible.

[Rinse-n-Repeat]

Im just saying how BB characters are just simplified versions of GG characters. If GG has "freaks" BB has simplified "freaks".

[zeech]

It's a game with bursts, momentum dashing, roman cancels, supers, force breaks (for jin at least), alpha counters and instant blocking. It even has a variant of the IK system in astral finishes. The most substantial difference is the damage scaling system and the barrier system, both of which they should have just left alone. I can't imagine what the problem could be in reusing the same underlying system with an entirely new cast. They also left out Frc's presumably because more casual players found them nearly impossible.

Ok, well it seems the 2D FG feature tick box is fairly similar between the games then. So what's wrong with BB? Does all the fault lie in the differences you mentioned? (damage scaling and barrier, lack of frc's).

Or is it more the movesets/move properties of the characters, etc? (which is the thing that would take time to iterate and improve).

Im just saying how BB characters are just simplified versions of GG characters. If GG has "freaks" BB has simplified "freaks".

You're forgetting that the most extreme members of GG's cast have been omitted. Only the normal characters have equivalents in BB. (well, there's Arakune, but I accept one or two freaks in a FG cast for comic relief, ie. Korea team in KOF.) At any rate, I dont think you can argue the fact that BB's cast is closer in terms of normality to KOF/SF/VF than GG is. The lack of teddy bears and cars being summoned out of nowhere helps a lot. (the same argument applies to Tekken with its pandas and kangaroos etc)

[Rinse-n-Repeat]

Idk to each his own i guess...it's not like having a wide array of characters is something that would be a turn off. Its a fighting game...half the time you're hitting each other anyways.

[zeech]

Idk to each his own i guess...it's not like having a wide array of characters is something that would be a turn off. Its a fighting game...half the time you're hitting each other anyways.

Yeah, definitely personal taste is a big factor. I was shocked and dismayed at seeing how many people on SRK were devoted fans of Cody's horrific "striped body paint" prison outfit.

[Jam-Kiske]

tl-dr, every last one of you.

This.

Quick opinion of my own: GG is awesome. It probably doesn't seem to have changed much to the casual player simply because the changes are so technical that if you haven't delved far enough into the game you might not fully notice them. New GG would be nice... the only reason I really can't play GG anymore is because there isn't anyone around here that would play it with me. While with BB the case is the same, it has netplay which while not a full indicator of skill in any way is still a means of playing with actual other people.

GG really is a hell of a lot better than BB in quite a few ways but honestly it hasn't had too much time to develop so I don't mind... though releasing a new iteration so quickly has me thinking it could be better if they just worked on it longer... meh.

[Blade]

The only things I recally "not" liking about GG is that: 1: You can't tech roll behind your opponent like in BlazBlue. 2: You can't use Throws as part of combos (not counting FRC throws).

[qwerty]

gg is a hardcore game that was killing itself long before bb came along bb is an easy mode game that has potential to grow both are fun, both are shat on by capcom fans and neither will be at evo 10

[zeech]

Also it's interesting that people here accuse BB of being simplistic. Of course you're comparing it to GG, but can someone put it into perspective for me? In your opinions, in terms of depth/complexity, how does BB compare to other popular non-GG fighting games? And why? (SF2ST, 3s, MvC2, CvS2, MBAA, VF5, KOF98, KOF02, SF4, etc etc.)

[qwerty]

bb is pretty low on the food chain. input barrier is beyond lenient, every button press having a five frame buffer makes it nearly impossible to drop an input. jump startup is super fast, especially relative to throw and overhead startup, making the game jumpy and making mixup not a very tempting option. faultless defense guage, no forcebreaks/quarter meter options make meter management durr hurr. eight frame window for instant block, fourteen frame windows for throw break option select, etc etc. look man i can point out all the things WRONG with bbct, but i think at the end of the day it's still a really enjoyable game because it gets just the bare minumum of basics right. but really, there's a reason we're all waiting for cs.

[Guilty Soul]

hmmm pretty hard to compare BB to other fighting games, it has a unique story, unique characters (well some are), a unique fighting style. Just the only problem with it is the characters, some are easy and broken to use as others are way to complex to figure and useless (my opinion Carl sux) and the game play to me is a little slow compared to GG. But the only game that comes to mind to compare it with is 3rd Strike. Both a little slow paced, not that unique on characters or attacks, and everybody uses the same basic characters. As a old skool hardcore GG fan no game compares to it not even BB, I play KOF more than BB, Iori Yagami FTW!