guilty gear, not loved by critics?

[Hecatom]

stupid nonsense

nuff said

GG did evolve.

The fact you can't recognize that blatantly exposes your position on the game.

If people played it then went somewhere else means they couldn't cut it. If great players stopped because they hit the walls of the system then fine... but if it's just random players who haven't shown anything, then all that statement is just an excuse.

You don't like GG's complexity then go play some shitty dumbed down game.

Are you serious? What the hell are they doing with BB CS then...good troll or bad info you shouldnt be proud of what you just wrote.

The kiddies like you who sign up here after BB dropped that give it "bad rep". They play it for 2 seconds and bash. Its the people who play it for hours and hours...the people who basically grew up with the game who should be giving opinions.

i agree, saying that GG didnt evolve and wasnt more than a revamp of the series only proofs that Soothesayer doesnt know what he is talking about, every iteration of GG is different from the previous one.

Soothesayer, you said that you have been playing the game for a long time, but the fact that you cant see the differences between games proves that at least you are playing the game only from a casual point, you say that you want that the developers need to push the limits, but are you fool enough to think that they should do it from the ground, give me a break, fighting games are very different beast from other generes, specially if the game is targeted for arcades primarily, the developers make the foundation making the game, and then they grow from it through revisions, remember the idea is to make a balanced game, without sacrificing the variety of play styles between the characters, and making a game, and then throwing everything away to make another wouldnt acomplish that, look how it works for KOF, where the only games that their player base accept are 98 and 02 wich got revision BTW, other kof games are dropped assap, look kof xii, neither the fans liked it (wich makes me sad btw, the game is really good).

in fact the revisions are something that a fighting gamer would and should expect from a running series, evolution through a solid foundation, and GG did a great job in that departament imo, making every game different enough without throwing what makes GG GG.

i know that some players would like to see different ideas from the developers, but you cant expect them to do them always, specially with games like fighting games, that a drastical overhaul can literally kill a series, making that the player base reject it, and a company, at least a serious one would avoid that kind of scenario, evolution doesnt mean a drastical change, you can evolve by growing from a point, pretty much like GG did.

also i agree with you partially, GG can be very complex and intimidating for some, and as qwerty said, that was one of the principal problems with the series to get the attention from the mainstream, yet, i have a lot of friends that play the game casually and cant make a FRC to save their lifes, and they still like the series for what it is, a fun game, maybe the problem is that we are so acostumed to think on a competitive way, and that can be a problem, imo GG would be bigger if the game were got more coverage in the past, sadly that didnt happen since the fighting games were by the time that gg got released something that the media didnt care, also the fact that the game critics usually dont know what are they talking about dont help.

So to the GG fans, would you pay money for another rerelease of the last GG, with some fixes and tweaks? Or, since ASW is not the developer anymore, would you pay money for a true sequel, but developed by a different team with new ideas, new (probably worse) gameplay, new (broken) characters, etc?

ASW OWNS GG, the easiest way to prove it is that Aksys makes all their contracts with ASW, and not Sega, Sega only has the publisher rights on the series, seriously that rumor is a joke, i already explained some time ago what is the legal issue, Sega owns partial rights because its fusion with sammy, but ASW still is the owner of the franchise, since ishiwatari owns all the rights on everything related of GG, sega has never done anything with GG, besides publishing GG Slash.

on a final notew, yes i believe that GG is better than BB (in fact i believe that is the best fighting game on the market), but i like BB, and im pretty sure that it can grown as a great game too, i feel that its unffair to compare BB to GG, since GG had 7 revisions, and BB is only in the 2nd one, also since the very begining we knwe that BB would be a dumbed version of GG, since they want to attarct to the casuals, so bringing that to the table is pointless

Also it's interesting that people here accuse BB of being simplistic. Of course you're comparing it to GG, but can someone put it into perspective for me?

In your opinions, in terms of depth/complexity, how does BB compare to other popular non-GG fighting games? And why?

(SF2ST, 3s, MvC2, CvS2, MBAA, VF5, KOF98, KOF02, SF4, etc etc.)

i guess that the main problem that some people have with BB right now is the linear way that you play with certain characters, yes it have a lot of options, but in the end you basically play the same way with some chars, making the way you play kinda boring for some

[Zerite]

The changes don't appear to have made the game better, but there's just something about BB that's less engrossing than GG. I'd say it was the pace of the game, but I don't think that's it exactly. I think it's the way they designed the characters. It's like they designed them to be balanced. In GG, that didn't really happen. They got to ggxx and were like, man we should totally make a character based on Slayer. He should be like... a vampire... the LAST VAMPIRE. OH MAN. HE SHOULD DO SO MUCH DAMAGE. So there he was. Doing so much damage. They get to BB and that only seems to happen to arakune, nu and rachel. The rest of them... Man we could really use a grappler. Let's make potemkin. He can't be exactly like pot though... I know he should pull other characters towards him if they block certain attacks! Oh that sounds like it could be good. We'd better make him bad at that.

[Mr. Mamation]

Victory for me!

[zeech]

i guess that the main problem that some people have with BB right now is the linear way that you play with certain characters, yes it have a lot of options, but in the end you basically play the same way with some chars, making the way you play kinda boring for some

Ok, to me it sounds like what you're saying is BB is either on par or above SF4 then, but below SF2ST, 3s, VF5, KOF98/02 in terms of depth? I dont know anything about MvC2, CvS2, or Tekken to compare. I've played MBAC casually, but I dont know enough about it to really compare either.

Can people give me an opinion on BB's place in the world of FGs? Because I see that you guys can give all this detailed analysis of BB vs. GG, but its hard to understand without seeing the greater context with other FGs.

I'm talking purely gameplay and depth here, not about style or fun or art or story.

[srdjan]

Even though i switched to BB, after 3-4 years of GG (mainly JO) i must confess it really feels like a simplified/dumbed down version of gg (maybe too much). The lack of options just makes the game a little boring. Hell, i`ll go ahead and say Melty Blood is more interesting and more difficult to play. Even though it has low execution requirement. Maybe i`m wrong but that`s just me. It`s just there is more stuff to do there even though it`s considered a simple game. I understand that BB has been made more simple to please a broader audience but maybe a little too much. I`m even starting to think that sucess of BB has little to do with the fact it`s simple. It`s more like good marketing, good online play, next gen consoles, HD sprites and stuff like that. If GG had that, it would be played same as this game, i mean casual players use 10-30% of the character capabilities or just mash buttons in BB so i fail to see how would learning curve affect casuals. Or they could have made an easy mode or something. Just look at SF4. Nobody gives a shit about 1 frame links, difficult viper stuff, gen advanced stuff, etc... The online play consists of Ken army which mash random dp`s or ultras. So why would anyone give a shit about GG frc`s, and advanced combos? And yet SF4 is succefull game. Still quite simple, but no casual cares about advanced stuff anyway. Just my 2 cents... sorry for potential mistake, english not my primary

[Shelcoof]

Ok, to me it sounds like what you're saying is BB is either on par or above SF4 then, but below SF2ST, 3s, VF5, KOF98/02 in terms of depth? I dont know anything about MvC2, CvS2, or Tekken to compare. I've played MBAC casually, but I dont know enough about it to really compare either.

Can people give me an opinion on BB's place in the world of FGs? Because I see that you guys can give all this detailed analysis of BB vs. GG, but its hard to understand without seeing the greater context with other FGs.

I'm talking purely gameplay and depth here, not about style or fun or art or story.

\

You should check out this thread http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7848&highlight=blazblue+hate

[Chrome Homura]

I'm a longtime player of VF and KOF, recent fan of Melty, and only switched to BB out of curiosity (and to my surprise found that I liked it.) So I like believable human characters, not crazy ugly freaks.

Wow. Really?

How you could so blatantly insult GG's cast like that (here of all places, I thought this was dustloop for crying out loud!) is beyond me. You claim to have been a fan of Melty and BB (both of which have their own fair share of UNBERIVABARU DA ZE amongst their respective casts and storylines) and yet... "crazy ugly freaks". Well, I guess that's the way it is. Please, do us all a favor and take your "believable human characters" and shove them as far up your ass as your believable human hands can manage to do so.

While you're at it, please try and get your head out of there first and consider the idea that not everyone wants generic looking people to take up the entirety of the cast (see Street Fighter lol) I'd imagine it's pretty cramped in that dark, smelly place by now.

[qwerty]

I'm a longtime player of VF

well this changes everything!

put it this way; ggac is 2d vf. the amount of knowledge required just to be able to play the game semi-competently, the matchup experience required to play well and the overall depth of the game makes just about every other 2d fighter fucking pale in comparison. much like vf, even the best us gg players lack matchup experience (it comes with having a large, diverse, complex and balanced roster) and drop combos because this shit is fucking hard. you don't get c.short xx c.short super, you don't get a five frame buffer on every input, it's you vs the command interpreter motherfucker; frc's are the sun in your eyes and spacing is the big rig with a blind spot that doesn't see you.

bb on the other hand is like tekken i guess. maybe soul calibur, i don't know. i don't play namco games.

[Shine]

Is it to late to troll yet?

bb on the other hand is like tekken i guess. maybe soul calibur, i don't know. i don't play namco games.

SC4 is a better comparison imo. Like how SC4 is a poor man's tekken, BB is a poor man's GG.

[zeech]

put it this way; ggac is 2d vf. the amount of knowledge required just to be able to play the game semi-competently, the matchup experience required to play well and the overall depth of the game makes just about every other 2d fighter fucking pale in comparison.

Ok, wow, really?

I've heard that SF2ST is well respected for its "complexity through simplicity" and 3S is famous for, I dunno, the Daigo parry moment or something.

I hear good things about GG, but it doesnt seem to garner the reflexive respect that VF does (heh, my joke is, "Everyone respects VF, but noone plays it. Everyone plays Tekken, but noone seems to respect it."). So GG is *that* much deeper than every other 2D fighter?

\

You should check out this thread http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7848&highlight=blazblue+hate

Well, that thread summed up some superficial things, although I guess the main points have been addressed - throws, jumps, movesets.

I'm a professional games programmer / wannabe designer. Although I will probably never get the chance to work on a fun genre like fighting games, I'm still interested in the theory. Since GG is such a technical and complex game, I thought I might find some technical and complex analysis here I've read Sirlin's oldold article on GG, which was pretty interesting.

[Shelcoof]

I'm a professional games programmer / wannabe designer. Although I will probably never get the chance to work on a fun genre like fighting games, I'm still interested in the theory. Since GG is such a technical and complex game, I thought I might find some technical and complex analysis here I've read Sirlin's oldold article on GG, which was pretty interesting.

If you can find me that article I'd love to read it

[Guilty Soul]

SC4 is a better comparison imo. Like how SC4 is a poor man's tekken, BB is a poor man's GG.

lol, well said...

[Blade]

The person who wins this argument will be the first mod to lock the thread.

[Hecatom]

I hear good things about GG, but it doesnt seem to garner the reflexive respect that VF does (heh, my joke is, "Everyone respects VF, but noone plays it. Everyone plays Tekken, but noone seems to respect it."). So GG is *that* much deeper than every other 2D fighter?

much of the respect that VF get its because people repeat what they heard about the game, yet i can assure you that 90% of the people dont know anything of the game on a competitive level, not saying that VF isnt deep or anything, just saying that in reality, much of the people who praise it, dont know why the game is respected or why is deep

GG is more Deeper, thats a fact, the principal problem is that USA is Capcom land, so many people would ignore it because it doesnt have SF on its name, hell even Justin said that GG is very complicated to play, and Seth said a while ago that only super human freaks can play it, the deep on GG come from thesystem stuff that you need to know in order to be competitive, the matchup experience that you need to know, and the diverseity on play style through the character, the destrexity that you need in order to play the game is very demanding, the only games that i can think that need the same amount of time of practice in order to play them well, are mvc2 and hnk.

[sogos]

the only reason i play gg is for the elitism that comes naturally when playing a game THAT IS SO IMPOSSIBLE TO PLAY OMG

[zeech]

much of the respect that VF get its because people repeat what they heard about the game, yet i can assure you that 90% of the people dont know anything of the game on a competitive level, not saying that VF isnt deep or anything, just saying that in reality, much of the people who praise it, dont know why the game is respected or why is deep.

Yeah, that's what my joke means - people seem to automatically respect VF without really playing the game or knowing it.

If you can find me that article I'd love to read it

Here it is. Its probably nothing that you guys don't know, but since I dont play GG it was very interesting. Heh, and now that I've read it again, it makes me want to play a BB with GG's systems but BB's character designs :P

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/fail-safes-in-competitive-game-design-a-detailed-example.html

Also whilst searching for that article I found some interesting ones:

Complexity vs. Depth:

http://www.design.wrong.net/?p=13

Death of Genres:

http://www.design.wrong.net/?p=17

(Heh, so BB is "rebirth" ? :P )

[Shelcoof]

zeech appreciate the links. Will be a good read.

[ShinsoBEAM]

Liked the article on depth vs complexity, IAMP, and SWRS feel like very simple yet deep games.

the only reason i play gg is for the elitism that comes naturally when playing a game THAT IS SO IMPOSSIBLE TO PLAY OMG

U too bro *bro fist.

I play BB so I can say heh "you say you can just win without trying"

*I pick the worst characters

*Owns them

[Soothesayer]

...

Alright, I'll admit, perhaps the "not evolving" thing was foolish of me to say, since GG has improved gameplay wise with every new iteration for the most part, you don't have to be pro to realize this. I even said before the gameplay has gotten better/deeper, which is a great thing and what sequels/follow-ups/updates/whatever you call them should do. But I do still want a GGX3 -who doesn't at this point - and I do think it should go beyond what it is now, along with some changes(good ones though, KOF12 did not it right, despite being a good game in its own right it didn't really succeed as a sequel like it should have). There definitely is a risk with more drastic changes, but without that kind of risk, do you think GG would've became what it is today? Don't get me wrong, GG1 is alright but you can honestly say you would've rather had the series go off in its direction over the one it took with GGX? I know I wouldn't have. I don't think Arc should make the changes so drastic as to where it's not even GG anymore, that's NOT a good thing, but if they can pull another GG1->GGX(smoother in transition though, and better) then that'll be grand. Whether Arc succeeds on that or not would be test of how great of game developers they really are. It's not even that the current installments are bad -they're not at all, no one is denying they're great games, just that well people are wanting to see more now, and by now GG should be on that next level. Revisions I expect, and I have no problem with them, until that's all we start getting(talking about the main X series here). Then it becomes an issue of when that next step for the series is going to be taken, and more importantly which direction to take it.

Really, GG would be more appreciated if the general communitty of gamers weren't so damn narrow-minded, impatient, and willing to put more effort into games than just an hour's worth into learning it. Publicity is a big part of it as well(say guilty gear and some think it's a robo porno), but the fault also lies in with the general gamer community themselves.

Those reads were interesting Zeech, thanks.

[zeech]

Since you guys are saying ASW still owns GG, maybe they should pursue a 2 tier strategy for their products. They should further simplify BB, (for example, making combos less character specific, make combos shorter and easier) and then offer a new GG as a hardcore fighter. BB can be a "gateway game" for GG, for people who want to pursue it further. But in such a case they will spend less resources on GG, so you might not get nice graphics, story mode, etc, since it will be more niche. Essentially, BB will be funding GG so they will concentrate more work on that instead. But this is probably a solution that satisfies most people, maybe? ----------------- I'm somewhat casual as a FG player, but as a gamer I'm still more hardcore than most of the population. My difficulties in attracting SF4 friends to BB have generally been that the game is too complex. If we refer to the article, this is complexity and not depth. For example, if we look at BnB combos, we see that there are many that dont work on Carl and certain other characters. For any given opponent, you generally want to do the best BnB. So theres only one real choice. Yet you have to remember which characters that BnB doesnt work on, and remember the best alternative BnB for them. More complexity that doesnt really improve depth. For true casuals it doesnt matter - they just mash buttons. But for intermediates like me and my friends, (semiskilled amateurs that arent interested in pro tournaments) the amount of trivia you need to remember is a big turnoff. So, maybe BB could benefit from a bit of combo standardisation - hit boxes and other properties should be adjusted so that BnBs work for all characters. (or, all characters except Carl, or maybe divide characters into categories like Light and Heavy with different BnBs for each). Of course, this is somewhat at odds with ASWs philosophy of "make a system and let players invent/discover the combos themselves", but after a sequel or two, generally the BnBs are well known, so ASW could retain them, and tweak things to organise them a bit. Possibly move properties too - if a character has an overhead, it will be 6B. If they have a head-invul move, it will be 6A, etc. It's already mostly like that. They should avoid adding new mechanics to sequels of BB, and keep the character count low. They should be on the lookout for mechanics that dont really benefit gameplay much, and be prepared to cut or replace them. By making GG3 the hardcore game and keeping BB more streamlined, it might be a good strategy for ASW? Hah, I realise this could be an offensive idea to those who prefer BB for nongameplay reasons and want BB to be more complex in its own right

[srdjan]

Well if you say you`re a skilled amateur that is not interested in tournaments (like me) what`s the problem in using standard bnb`s that work on most of the characters. Sure you lose some dmg but who cares? I played JO in GG who has more character specific combos then all BB characters combined together and yet i used a standard bnb most of the time, while it`s still fun to experiment and try some new stuff. It`s fun having options, it allows different strategies and different playstyles of same characters. And BB doesn`t need to be more simple. Seriuosly, it can`t get more simple than this. That`s why are they adding an easy mode in CS because i`m guessing that BB will get more complex over time while still retaining easy execution (5 frame buffer, ridicolously long hitstop).

[DoomieJ]

the only reason i play gg is for the elitism that comes naturally when playing a game THAT IS SO IMPOSSIBLE TO PLAY OMG

you play cause we play and we friends, YAYZ!

Seriously though, GG is like VF. BB is like barbie horse adventures 2.

AND FUCK CRITICS. people who get paid to give their opinions should be SHOT ON SIGHT.

[zeech]

Slightly offtopic, but I have a question. I've heard people say that IB is too good in BB, but yet in top match videos, I see people IB all the time, but rarely retaliate afterwards. It certainly seems a far cry from 3S where a successful parry seems to almost guarantee punishment. Why is it too good? What detrimental effect on the gameplay does it have? Oh, a second question. FRCs are famously regarded as ridiculously difficult. Yet, as I understand it, its just pressing RC during a small frame window during certain moves? (is that correct?) If so, isnt it about the same as 1-frame links, Just Defence and other things with tight timing? Why is it considered so hard?

[EternalLurker]

It's not entirely uncommon to FRC a special move into another special move. Combined with what you have to press to do an FRC (3 attack buttons), that requires a helluva lot more dexterity than the other things you've listed. In some cases it's even harder: try, for example, doing an FRC with Bridget while holding Heavy Slash to keep his Yo-Yo spinning. It's just a matter of muscle memory, so once you've gotten it you can generally be quite consistent with it. But getting it in the first place takes shitloads of practice. D:

[HZMN]

shitloads of practice. D:

Reason why GG is normally shunned by the non-GG players. It takes a hell of alot more practice to be good at GG than most other fighters out there currently. Highly rewarding though if you put the time into it.