Tofu Warrior Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 Might as well get discussion started on how to deal with 4C, it's going to give new CS Tager players a lot of trouble when the game first comes out. It's a difficult move to deal with. If I play footsies with 2D, I can get in and mix up. Once you put Hakumen in Gadget Finger mix ups it's over because he can never back dash. His only options are block or jump. I've been turtling hard in this match up, trying to farm Spark Bolt and waiting for openings. A lot of matches end in time up.
Maho Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 Once you put Hakumen in Gadget Finger mix ups it's over because he can never back dash. His only options are block or jump. If he has 2 magatamas in stock, a TK Hotaru will beat throws and every of your anti backdash and anti jump options and it's pretty safe for him, spinny should beat it though, and maybe a delayed AC can couter that but i'll have to check. The mixup then would be Tager's 5A beats mash but loses to counters, 360 beats counters and mash but loses to TK Hotaru, he has some decent damage from his counters so he can go for it sometimes.
ryokoalways Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 I don't think spinning beats hotaru because a clash means hakumen can cancel into jD, and if he hit super armor he can jump cancel to block. The mindgames against hakumen in this regard is pretty even imo because both character can break out a lot of damage for guessing right. Counter goes for 3.5-4.2k, while hotaru counter goes anywhere from 4.5k-6k+. 5A should beat tk for free though, everytime. Blocking is better imo because if you block hotaru, hakumen is still close and he is still magnetized. He is at a severe disadvantage from there.
Maho Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 I don't think spinning beats hotaru because a clash means hakumen can cancel into jD, and if he hit super armor he can jump cancel to block. I thought of the jump cancel option for hotaru but i wasn't sure and i can't test that alone, i'll try to look into what happens this week end.
Tofu Warrior Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 Yeah, I learned about how powerful TK Hotaru was today, the Hakumen player at the arcade was using it very well. I do remember beating it with 2C, but I'm pretty sure he just mistimed it.
Brother Mojo Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 If he has 2 magatamas in stock, a TK Hotaru will beat throws and every of your anti backdash and anti jump options and it's pretty safe for him, spinny should beat it though, and maybe a delayed AC can couter that but i'll have to check.In BB:CT, at least, Hotaru has body property. Unless they changed that, Hotaru will go right through Collider's invulnerability and own Tager's face off. A well timed 360A + hold beats most DPs, and iirc Hotaru is no exception. If you expect a DP, delay the 360 so you can invuln past its active frames, then hold the button until they land on the ground again/their invuln frames wear off. Works against Ragna's ID, Jin's, etc. 5A beating the jump startup animation, though, would make that a ridiculously good option against Hakumen, since that would mean 5A basically just owns anything Hakumen does. Beats any attack-based options and backdash, and puts Hakumen into a blockstring against block or jumping block. Hakumen's counters could theoretically cause problems though. Speaking of Hakumen's counters, is Hakumen's astral a reasonable option on Gadget wakeup? It doesn't have any vulnerable startup or anything, right? That'd mean it'd beat Tager's pokes and throws with instant death, which would be pretty seriously scary.
Maho Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 Hotaru only have head attribute in CT, Tsubaki is the air move with body attibute, also you won't beat it with 360A cause it has no landing recovery and he can jump away safely. 5A could indeed beat a lot of things but the reward is low, if hakumen uses his counter against it he gets very good damage, so better don't get predictable with that. I thought of astral as a very good option for Hakumen as it can beat everything besides guard and AC, but it's also a big risk, if Tager does nothing, he could get 360B into another gadget, with no magatama for TK Hotaru this time. Also it's not for this matchup but you sure won't beat Ragna's 623C with 360A, it's active for 18 frames long, and 360A hasn't doesn't have as much invincibility.
OrionXElite Posted January 24, 2010 Posted January 24, 2010 Any tips for dealing with Hakumen players who literally will do nothing more than his new pokes??? I got stuck in a match today and I just could not think of anything to do except stall for Spark Bolt and hope for the best...
Leo7 Posted January 24, 2010 Posted January 24, 2010 4C has a bit of start-up and extends his hitbox a bit. If the Haku's magnetized, and you're at the right distance, you can 360A and catch him out of his 4C.
Mike Z Posted January 24, 2010 Posted January 24, 2010 4D can beat Haku's 4C if you time it correctly (i.e. do it nearly at the same time).
OrionXElite Posted January 24, 2010 Posted January 24, 2010 Wow 4D and 360A both beat his 4C? I never even thought of that. I guess I assumed his sword didn't act as an extension of his hitbox for those. I'll have to test that next time me and one of my friends get a chance to practice. Any advice for his air poke? or should you just play footsies the whole match?? I remember j.5D beat out his poke once or twice but the timing is really tight given how quick Hakumen slashes.
Mike Z Posted January 24, 2010 Posted January 24, 2010 Collider cleanly beats Hotaru. We just tested it a bunch. Hakumen can't even jump because it whiffs completely - I think it's the only move in the game that Hotaru doesn't clash with. Woo!
OrionXElite Posted January 25, 2010 Posted January 25, 2010 Oh alright I'll keep those in mind. Thanks a lot Mike and Leo.
Leo7 Posted January 25, 2010 Posted January 25, 2010 It's not that his sword is a part of his hitbox, but rather when he does 4C, he sticks out his arm a bit.
Henaki Posted January 25, 2010 Posted January 25, 2010 if he does 4c hes committing to a laggy horizontal move, bust out your snes hf strategy guide and do what they did in those days: jump beats sweeps and fireballs. jumping gives you free jB pressure usually, at absolute worst youll get shut out by another poke but you should use jumping sometimes to get a free ticket into a mixup. generally what you want to do is jump and if you see 4C coming out, initiate a jB, if they didnt, fall and barrier guard. occassionally mix in a command grab because if hakumen catches onto this trick he can use counter to beat your jB since he generally wont have enough time to do anything besides maybe 5a (maybe).
OrionXElite Posted January 26, 2010 Posted January 26, 2010 It's not that his sword is a part of his hitbox, but rather when he does 4C, he sticks out his arm a bit. Yeah I tested that out a little today. I noticed that the sword does not count as part of his hitbox and you are just hitting his extending arm. But I found 2 problems with this situation. First, the timing is partially based on luck from what I can tell. If you try and CH it when you see his elbow stick out, Haku will stuff Tager's 4D cause his palm doesn't come up fast enough. You practically have to do it at the same time. Second, you have to actually be close enough for Tager's palm to connect with Haku's arm or else Haku will he get a free CH on you. I didn't try out the 360A idea though because I kinda forgot...haha. So next time I have the chance, I'm gonna test out the timing on the 360A and I'll try the jump mix up idea Henaki threw in.
qwerty Posted January 26, 2010 Posted January 26, 2010 occassionally mix in a command grab because if hakumen catches onto this trick he can use counter to beat your jB since he generally wont have enough time to do anything besides maybe 5a (maybe). hotaru also don't get too comfy jumping over 4C, he does have a half screen j.C now. my take on this matchup: at mid/long range unmagnetized, hakumen will destroy you with 4C and j.C. when he's magnetized he does have to be a bit more careful, but can still just mash hotaru and beat a lot of your shit. at close range, it's almost the same mixup game as ct, except you're at an advantage even when he's not magnetized due to gadget finger. so yeah, just bring him to you (not the other way around), keep him magnetized if possible, and this shit is yours.
Henaki Posted January 26, 2010 Posted January 26, 2010 hotaru wont beat the empty jump, which i guess should have been mentioned. id rather take the waste of two magatama and be in. like i said it was an option, how often do you see top players jump in on fireballs and sweeps? once in a while, but it works. the risk of jumping in is pretty low. you'll get shut out again but frankly the reward is often higher than the risk in this matchup.
Leo7 Posted January 26, 2010 Posted January 26, 2010 So, I just saw the second match in this vid. The Tager dodges the 4C at points by just doing a normal jump forward + j.D and scores a counterhit. I'm going to have to try this myself the next time I play, but it seems like a pretty good way to approach.
Dacidbro Posted January 26, 2010 Posted January 26, 2010 Just be careful, the jump jD has to be massively psychic. It was like 10 frames before 4C even started.
Stafy Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 Any tips on how to get of the corner? I don't know if it's just the player, but my friend does 214B (the two kicks), full 6C, or 4C. I know for 4C i can do 4D, but what do I do for the rest of the situation, or anything else that i'm missing?
Heavy_Mental Posted August 5, 2010 Posted August 5, 2010 214B should be a free IB 360/720. You might be able to do a late backdash to dodge 6C and punish with Spark Volt. Maybe. Otherwise, just play it patient, slowly walk forward, look for an opening to escape. Be careful about jumping out because Hakumen can smack you in the face with j.C. Hakumens tend to be very jump happy. If you're confident in your yomi, a Psychic Collider into corner can be a real game changer. On the other hand, you can get heavily punished for that, so don't do it unless you're confident you can land it.
Leo7 Posted August 5, 2010 Posted August 5, 2010 Another Haku 4C counter that isn't mentioned in this thread (for those who are having trouble with 4C happy haku-mens): Psychic 5C can stuff Haku's 4C at a certain distance. Try to get within max 5C range, and hit the C button when you think the Haku player is going to throw out a 4C (basically you both have to do your attacks at nearly the same time or a bit earlier if you can). You'll score a CH and you can confirm into Spark/2D which gets you in your preferred range. If it isn't obvious by now, this match-up really tests your footsies/spacing.
kingkman2 Posted August 10, 2010 Posted August 10, 2010 turns out that 720 c can be countered by his astral found that out today playing online......i realy didnt mind the loss because of the immaculate timing on his part
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