[CS1] Tsubaki Yayoi - General Discussion

[Ginseng]

This thread is for general discussion on anything related to Tsubaki. This includes storyline, combos, gameplay tactics, etc. The combo thread and the starter's guide will be locked to prevent clutter. Also feel free to post any updates you feel the guides and combo thread will need. Of course I will still need to verify it with those that have played the game, but this prevents the need for me checking three threads for updates.

[Ginseng]

Here is the discussion from the previous version of the thread:

Hey guys, having a tough time dealing with the other decent characters like Ragna/Hakumen/Litchi. Post your thoughts here and lets discuss.

Her pressure from 5B max range is pretty weak since all her general normal followup won't be in range.. Apparently 3C combos from it but I haven't tried if it works .

I've just thought of switching my game from pressure to tagging people who block well with 6CC 22C double primer crush since the option is there, if 6CC cancels to special on block.

Its easy enough to get someone to mash out of your strings if you try to mix them up with ANYTHING. That sucks pretty much, so guard crushing may be the way to boost your guaranteed damage other than mixups.. 6CC 22C string looks pretty solid, its probably safe from poke-happy people when you chain in from 5C, and you can cancel 5C to bait uppers.

I'm frankly amazed how random combos that should work seem to fail with her. Its as if she's on CT combo system which lends her zero imagination when thinking of advanced combos.

236A~C are good ways to get in from afar without install bar. Unfortunately you have to hit the opponent to be safe so you can't really abuse this. It gets you in range but in danger of being counter pressured. Very easily punished if you overuse this and get blocked.

214A~C seems like combo filler. B seems to go through certain things at times but probably just my imagination.

22A~C sets seem good. Use 22A to zone out of 5B range, 22C to knockdown from a combo.

j.236 B and C looks very dumb. j.236B looks useless.

In fact all B iterations of specials look useless. Anyone with secret japanese knowledge care to shed light on this? C versions have great knockdown/guard crush/slide properties or whatnot, which is alright, A versions come out fast, great for combos and zoning, which is great, but what's the B versions all for?

And why does j.236B and C look retardedly useless. TK 236C is counter bait though it looks tricky. I can only guess they are used for combo positioning purposes in the air since her air normals are so shit for height positioning. Will have to try j.CC j.236C if it gives me better j.214C positioning for knockdown slide.

j.214A~C looks alright. I'm not sure if they are actually punishable or on disadvantage but at least its an option in the air to boggle your opponent some.

D moves are pretty self explainatory. I think.

P.S heading down to the arcade soon, its 8am my time now. If anyone wants me to test shit out while your arcades are closed I'll be happy to, along with the stuff I'm thinking about above.

God I wish frame data for her is out.

Or it comes out and I slit my neck because she's just that bad.

In the Changes thread regarding B versions:

While I heard that all the non-D versions have the damage, perhaps B versions dont prorate as bad?

[kro_]

So here's a question: You can cancel her DP into 236a on block right? If you cancel her DP into 236d, will the fireball keep her relatively safe (barring things like Litchi's all green or bang's new super)?

[Mistilteinn]

Just wondering, are charge-cancel blockstrings like SC4 Xianghua viable, or pretty much worthless?

[Felicia]

Charge-cancel block strings are viable, but characters like Ragna can mash or DP out of them. You can't really use Tsubaki's DP into j.236 series. Reason being is that Tsubaki's DP series have a finisher that looks similar to j.236 series, and those knockdown. 5B can cancel into 3C. I've managed to do it. Seems like range may/may not be an issue in order to pull it off. 5B > 3C could be a breakable block string. The beauty about 5B is that it can lead into a lot of stuff. The bad thing? A lot of that stuff is breakable and not a legit block string. It seems, like Jin's 5C to 5D, that only certain combo block strings with Tsubaki are unbreakable. Which means a lot of work will be needed to check them. At best, 5BB is unbreakable. As are 5A/2A mashing (up to a certain point). 5A and 2A are pretty good for block-strings and can set up some mix-ups. I'm not quite willing to go into it (not confident enough to know whether they can be mashed out or not). So someone else - if they could - should provide some more info there. I think I'm going to try a different offensive method with Tsubaki next chance I get. Since her block-strings can be breakable, I wonder if I could force players to break them and prep for counter hits and exploit openings. Might be able to get somewhere there. If you use 236 series from a distance, and you hit, be sure to finish off the combo (ie, 236C into 22C or something). The reason being is that, even if you were to hit normally, Tsubaki appears to be at a disadvantage. On block, you can continue to chain her specials together, 22C (slight charge) seems to provide some substantial block stun, possibly leaving you relatively safe from punishment.

[Hurricane Rev]

What is Tsubaki's main game? Has she got a good Offensive game or a good Defensive game?

[Mistilteinn]

Charge-cancel block strings are viable, but characters like Ragna can mash or DP out of them.

Pretty much what I was expecting.

Might main her now, since catching people with X's cancels was fun as hell.

[Spud]

What is Tsubaki's main game? Has she got a good Offensive game or a good Defensive game?

From the looks of things, offense. She doesn't seem to me like she has any really strong keepout tools.

[Ginseng]

Sorry if I haven't been able to add much to conversation or guide/threads. I'm aware of the information from Japanese bbs and other sources, but I would like confirmations from US players that have actually played the game before posting the information.

That being said, I personally feel her main tools for keepout will be based on IB/punishes or dead angles.

EDIT: koogy uploaded the Tsubaki and Tsubaki vs Noel themes on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHEaHZl7hHc <- Tsubaki theme

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cu6rIiv6Ig <- Tsubaki vs Noel theme

[sanshiki]

Hello tsubaki fans, back with some tricks and new perspectives i learnt tonight at the arcade. 6C~B kara throw. The range is pretty decent on this, and everyone knows she needs some damned range on her vanilla throw. IAD D~BC confirmed and it works. Seems a miniscule slower than carl's iad falling throw. Not sure how effective it would be. TK 236B staggers the opponent on counterhit. Use it like a really slow bandit revolver. I tried j.236C crossup but its not easy to setup into it without being mashed out of. 6CC isn't special cancellable on block so no 2 guard primer break with 22C. Perspectives/New gameplan ------------------------------ I'm pretty damn good at IBing strings, so i tend to end up with excess meter and no charge vs characters like ragna/litchi. When you get a hit, 5CC into 236236C, which does more damage than her rekka string and also knocks back opponent into the other end of the screen. This is paramount to starting your own offense if you're getting the shit rushed out of you by things that'll CH or tag you easily (ragna and litchi's j.C for example) Don't ever use 236236D unless you can perform the full tsubaki install combo. You do nearly comparable damage anyway with 623D 214D, link C super. Proration seems to be wierd but adding another 623D,236D, 214D before the C super if you have 5 gauges hopefully will do more damage (doesn't seem like it tbh). As from above, since tsubaki's damage tends to cap around 3.4k or so, its probably better to knockdown the opponent with a 623C j236A j214C after a 623D j.214D rep. Save your other Install meter and gauge for the next combo you land since you'll land far away and able to charge once again, while dealing nearly pretty much your full damage potential. 3C isn't a good standalone poke but powerful when cancelled from. Great pressure that ends up with them facing a j.C while still in stun from the first hit of 3C. Use this alot vs zoners. 2B is your best move against Tao-esque low stances. Avoids some aerial moves and turns around with 2BB if Tao lands behind you. I managed to win about 2/5 games i had with the top ragna at my arcade, but phailed terribly vs litchis. alot of Tsubaki's rushdown just gets shut down by staff pokes Thats all for now i guess.

[CrimsonDisaster]

All non-D versions do the same damage and IIRC have the same proration. Doing blah blah 236A > 214A > 22C does the same as blah blah 236B > 214B > 22C. If it did more damage/was better then people would be listing B version for combos more often, eh? Unless you need height/distance, stick to A since they're faster. "Characters like Ragna" can mash out of Tsubaki's charge cancel pressure, and by "characters like Ragna" I mean "everybody." That said, Tsubaki has a few ways to punish mashing... none of which are totally safe, but they're there. Hsien has been running these with some success, though I suspect that's more due to the people he'll play Tsubaki against not being as good as him... Spaced out 5B > 2D, 5B. Should leave you out of range of 2A's, which means while you might be at disadvantage you can still CH the 2A. CH 5B > 2D, run up (5/2A) 5BB etc is pretty nice. Obviously you can 5B > 2D, run up and pressure/throw if they won't mash. 5BB, auto-staggers a bit but you can delay the followup a bit more to make sure you frame trap someone mashing 2A. Nothing spectacular as it isn't unmashable or anything (can get DP'd and the like) and it doesn't lead to any safe pressure on block, but it's easy. blah blah 214A. Another random frame trap, this one launches for at least (dash) 5B XX 623A > j236A > j214C or whatever. Punishable on block/IB, but that's nothing new for Tsubaki. blah blah 22C/22[C]. Another frame trap-ish string, kinda safe on block if only because you can delay/charge it to throw off IB timing. Takes off a guard primer, gives a beefy combo on CH. Might be punishable, probably is after IB at the very least. 5A > 2A > 5A > 2A... this is something I started running after I first got mashed out of whatever 2D (get hit into combo ugh), Hsien does it better than I do. Can be 5AAAAA or 2AAAAAAAAAA or whatever, I like alternating but it's probably best to just randomly switch to make them see something different and throw off their expectations. Doesn't really discourage mashing like the frame trap stuff above, but it hit-confirms into combo, is a tick throw setup, you can push yourself out to 5B range, etc. For all that, I still think Tsubaki is better off using her mobility to turtle till she's sitting on at least one charge (which doesn't take that long, really). That level gives her so much more threat. She has a strong anti-air in 2C (that leads to like 4k if they're anywhere near the corner), she has decent air-to-air moves, a few decent ground pokes (5B, mostly. 236x to keep them honest). Of course, if she gets a clear opening to land some hits and rush down, why not?

[bbq sauce]

Is any of the j214 series an overhead or do they all hit mid?

[SolxBaiken]

*prepares to get flamed* A question concerning Mach: When Mach B or C is blocked you are left vulnerable, so would it be wisest to always connect with Sword and/or Wind if contact is made or should you play it safe by primarily using A ver? And when using Mach D, since it goes right through the opponnet are throws ok?

[CrimsonDisaster]

If you are throwing 236x series out of combo at all, you are fishing to land the entire special chain or at least the 22C finisher... so do that, unless you like frame disadvantage for your already risky move. Don't understand what you're trying to ask about 236D since "going through" and "throws" have nothing to do with each other. On hit you could potentially use the frame advantage to go for a throw mixup... but why? You get a free combo anyhow.

[SolxBaiken]

I was just curious since you land so close to them if you could start a throw combo. A question about Chakyan: Is it better to just simply charge while your opponnet is recovering from one of your combos or should you try to get the Install gauge up by Chakyan?

[CrimsonDisaster]

Again, no reason to go for a throw after 236D- you can combo after it on hit, and on block you're too far away to just throw and dash -> throw after that will probably get you hit anyways. You won't get charge through charge cancel very quickly or safely or at all. Charge when you have space (turtle -> charge, or after a combo, etc.).

[Ginseng]

Hey Crimson, what do you feel about her air throw as an anti-air option? And is her 2CC air-unblockable? Actually mind PMing me your aim while you're on? haha

[CrimsonDisaster]

Her airthrow doesn't seem that great but I'd have to mess with it more. Followups don't seem too hot without charge, though. 2C is air-unblockable, haven't seen a situation where someone air FDs 2C but doesn't air FD the followup C so I can't comment on that. You would probably just fish for CH 2C into dash 5B/C > 2CC air combo anyhow. Sometimes it anti-air counter-hits them... on the ground? Dunno, maybe we're just timing deep jump-ins really poorly against a move with upper-body invul :V but she gets a free ground combo off that.

[Shuyin]

Don't ever use 236236D unless you can perform the full tsubaki install combo. You do nearly comparable damage anyway with 623D 214D, link C super. Proration seems to be wierd but adding another 623D,236D, 214D before the C super if you have 5 gauges hopefully will do more damage (doesn't seem like it tbh).

Is using the D special a valid combo ender if you have less than 5 charges? What's the damage comparison of following 623D 214D with 623D, 236D, 214D, C super; compared with following 623D 214D with the 236236D super?

[Hurricane Rev]

Is Tsubaki's Health decent in this game? How fast is it to fill up Tsubaki's charge meter?

[IronTager]

Alright, I'm about to ask something and I'd have to either be a crazy son of a bitch or a brave fool to ask this on here... I've watched some videos on Tsubaki and well... She doesn't seem that good, maybe it's because the lack of people who know how to actually user her correctly, or perhaps it's the new health bar ratio that's been set for this game (Everyone's health has been raised immensely so that matches won't end so soon). Anyhow, what exactly are her strengths and weaknesses? I'm aware what her drive does, it's similar to Sol Badguy's whom charges and has more improved special moves. But she doesn't really look too strong even with some of the stuff she's given, again though, perhaps I just haven't seen people using her properly. I would actually like to be wrong and for her to be just as excellent as the rest of the cast. (In other words, I want a balanced game) So please, I wish to be informed. One more thing... Does this mean that the Loketests are done now and that they're finished balancing out the game? Cause I'm still a bit worried about the balance still (Kinda mostly concerned about Rachel, she looks... Not good at all, I mean, not horrible, but still...)

[kro_]

I've been playing a lot of Tsubaki at AI. 5b > cc > 5b and 5b > 3c are great pressuring tools. It is possible to do 5b CH, cc, and dash up 2a into a BnB. You can also 5b CH and hit confirm into far 5b 22d to start a wall bounce combo. Charge cancel in general is really good. Being able to cc after any combination of 5bb, 2bb, or 5cc makes it tough to identify the gap and poke out of it. Generally, only jabs and reversals can poke you out of tight cc blockstrings. Keeping that in mind, it is pretty effective to cc out of your opponent's jab range and continue pressure that way. When you feel like the opponent wants to jab, cancel into 3c instead of cc to stuff their jab attempt. 3c being jump-cancellable and comboable makes this approach very safe. The 3c jc j.c link can be pretty tight and it feels harder to land on opponents with smaller otg hitboxes like Carl. However, I'm pretty sure it works on everybody. You can even jump straight up instead of jumping forward for the j.c. Just make sure you dash forward before doing 2cc. 3cc seems to have very good priority as an anti-air or to catch opponents who try to jump out of blockstrings. 2c is also pretty solid. 3c is very good for catching rolling opponents and I believe it can combo into 3cc followup into air combo pretty easily. Her 6a overhead is decent in terms of speed, but oftentimes the opponent is too far to land 5cc. In these situations, it is better to do 236a directly after 6a. 236a/b/c RC can be treated a lot like Ragna's hell's fang RC. You can go into the followup to catch a counterpoke or RC and do a quick mixup. j.214d CH against an airborne opponent causes floor slide. It's long enough that I managed to run all the way to the corner and do a combo on their sliding body. 6c seems ideal for this. One of Tsubaki's strengths is the ability to do another attack even if her first move whiffed. In the air, doing j.bb allows you to do two attacks much like dictator's j.strong in sf4. Against Tager, I was able to hit him with 5bb followup even though he backdashed my 5b. If it hasn't been mentioned before, j.cc causes her to float a bit so using it on a grounded opponent makes it difficult to land and continue the combo in time. j.c's hitbox angles downward farther than it looks. I haven't tried her kara-throw yet, but simple jab-ticks combined with fast run speed and charge cancels should make her pretty good at landing throws. I haven't figured out how to combo from air throw, since I didn't have many chances to land them. Her range is a problem for sure, but I think her fast footspeed, backdashes, and cc can make up for it. Damage is also kinda low, but it's mainly because I don't do any combos that go beyond 1 or 2 charges. I haven't had too much difficulty gaining charge meter. Once you show the opponent that they can't approach you recklessly through proper use of anti-airs, it's pretty easy to create that space necessary to charge. Charging in and of itself is great baiting material. It's always useful to have at least 1 charge meter for D dp, full-screen 236d punish, and a decent combo option off far 5b (22d). 236 series is useful for getting away from a jumping opponent by going under them. j.214 series is useful for getting away from grounded opponents by flying over them. 22d > astral is easy and a crowd pleaser

[Ginseng]

Very nice read, thanks a lot for the post! Also, mind PMing me your AIM contact? Soniti, and several others have been recommending me to contact you regarding this stuff. I have a lot of things I would like to discuss about!

[CrownEmpress]

What's the best way for her to utilize heat? Comboing into her super seems OK since it gets the opponent at fullscreen which gives her the space to charge, but I wonder if she has any RC combos that end up doing more damage than her super (unless she's got 5 charges, but I've only seen that happen against Tagers.) EDIT: On second glance, most characters can just tech and run up immediately after the super is over and it gives more or less the same amount of time to charge as a generic 22C ender. Or at least thats my view on it.

[Spud]

So how is she looking? I mean, I figured she wouldn't exactly be Nu status right out of the gate, but does it seem like she needs time and work or she's just weak as a character?